Opinions: Beretta 1201fp/Mossberg 9200a1

[EricO]

Greetings! I'm posting this msg. in the hopes that I can persuade a LE friend of mine from making a drastic mistake! :-) He has admittingly unusual tastes in firearms (Hey S-man, in case you noticed this post!) and is ready to purchase a Kel Tec Sub 9 carbine with Glock magazine adaptor, which he carries on duty. However, he may or may not be able to carry the Sub 9 along on duty, probably not. I'm trying to talk him into purchasing a semi-auto shotgun (pumps are out according to him), one of the two mentioned in the subject line. He recently traded in a Moss. 500 to purchase a Daewoo DR200 carbine, which he will eventually be able to bring along on patrol. He is a regional parks district LE, and therefore greater range incidents can and do occur. The average (if you can say that) encounter is usually a car stop in a parking lot or along a rural road where the inhabitants have no business being present. Therefore, car to car range, and this is where the shotgun rules! Backup is also farther away than the usual city LE officer's. He tells me that he's interested in the semi-auto shotgun idea, but he needs to be swayed. Also, if anyone has any damming info. on what I consider to be the ugliest looking pistol caliber carbine (Sub 9), feel free! :-) Let's hear the reasons he should prefer the semi-auto shotgun.
Thanks for the input. EricO

[bruels]

Well, I kind of think getting a Tec 9 is like arming yourself with another pistol. Try using it on a car. 9mm will not penetrate a car body or windshield and still remain effective. I personally prefer the shotgun. I have a Mossberg 500 with ghost ring sights, Vang Comp barrel choke and porting, and a shortened stock with a 13" pull. With continued practice I am a fast as I want to be. With slugs, it will group 4" at 100 yards. With buckshot it still patterns inside a human silhouette target at 25-30 yards.

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Bruce Stanton

[Rob Pincus]

Bruce,
An associate of mine did a study for the Feds on using small arms against vehicles. He even produced an instructional video on the subject meant for LE and military personnel. the study was geared towards executive protection concerns, both from the defensive and offensive side. To unilaterally rule out the 9mm against targets inside of a car is not at all appropriate. Obviously, slugs are better, but 9mm is not as useless as it seems popular to think. I have shot 9mm FMJ through car doors and windshields with decent accuracy in training situations and personaly seen the results on human bodies when the 9mm was shot through car glass.
(see the post about the officer involved shooting in the general forum for a recent experience with a vehical shoot, that involved .40S&W though, which really is not radically different from the 9mm +P+ 127s that were issued prior to the switch, certianly MUCH closer than 12 gauge slugs)

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you both that the 9mm carbine is not as good a secondary choice as the tactical shotgun, but if he does choose it, I think the Kel-Tec is a great choice given that it can use his Glock mags, of course he might be better served by a Marlin which can also be fitted (for $150 I think) for the Glock mags.

Now I must suggest a Benelli and you can find countless posts here in the archives in which I speak well of that particular smooth bored beauty.

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-Essayons

[bruels]

No easy answers on this one Rob. One training shoot we dragged a car out to the range and shot at the drivers area from all kinds of angles. We were using the 9mm duty load of 147 grain sub-sonic out of a S&W Model 5906. The results were not that spectacular. Things like the seat head rest and seat back would stop the round after penetrating the rear window. It reinforced my plan to use the shotgun with slugs or a rifle if I have to deal with someone on the other side of a car or truck.

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Bruce Stanton


[This message has been edited by bruels (edited 12-06-98).]

[Noel]

I was at Thunder Ranch for a Triad class and we shot a 70's Ford with every caliber present in the class: 9mm .40 .45 .223, 7.62x39 12ga 00B 4B and 71/2 bird.

Penetration of car doors was not common with any 9mm if the round hit any feature of the car door and minimal if it did not hit a handle. .45 ball went through 2 doors. 223 is not a good penetrator, nor is the buck. 7.62 and slugsd work good.

Don't carry a long barreled pistol. Carry a more effective weapon.

Noel

[Rob Pincus]

Bruel,

My buddy's video shows similar results with certain loads, though I had not seen them myself (as far as the head rest stopping shots from the rear). Most of the shooting I've done with 9mm was using a +P or +P+ rated round.

Noel also brings up a good point about Buck shot not being spectacular against vehicles and many LEA's only allow their officers to carry buckshot and certainly most shotguns loaded for LE or defense purposes today are loaded with buckshot with the slugs possibly being kept nearby.

Also, performance of the handgun rounds will be improved at least a little by the increased muzzle velocity from the carbine.

Let me put it this way, I'm not advocating the use of *any* handgun round when it comes to stopping someone that is in a vehicle if there is an option to be armed ahead of time with a rifle or slug-gun..but I am also not going to feel at all safe sitting inside of a car if my attacker "only" has a 9mm.

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-Essayons

[4V50 Gary]

Shotguns are also my choice for vehicle stop distance, but since your friend is a park based LE officer, I'd recommend a .223 rifle. He may have to engage at longer distances than that which the shotgun will afford. Draw his attention to NH where two officers were killed by a rifle armed assailant. If all he wants is a pistol calibre carbine, he'd better be well practiced for headshots out to 75 yards (seems to be the average for rifle armed bad guys shooting good guys - no statistics to prove) and better yet, 100.

Shotgun slugs, especially with the Vang Comp bored out gun, will carry out. But often times with a tube fed shotgun, you won't have a choice when you rack your first round. That's why I prefer a rifle.

Just my 2 cents.

Gary

[bruels]

I was a firearms instructor for our department for five years. There was a marked reluctance to employ the shotgun in situations where it was definitely warranted. Part of this reluctance stems from the beginning in the police academy where the training emphasis is on the pistol and the shotgun is treated as a specialty weapon but nothing in the syllabus mentions what specialty the shotgun is for.

I watched a captain go insane with rage when he discovered a shotgun in a patrol car loaded with a mix of buckshot and slugs. He couldn't articulate why it was a bad idea, he just said it was against policy. Not so. Just his interpretation of the policy.

I tried to explain to deputies at the range the concept of changing to slugs at certain ranges depending on how the gun would pattern to have the deputies question whether slugs were permitted at all. Other deputies just hated slugs because they "kicked" more even though the throw weight was about the same.

When I suggested we shorten the length of pull to accommodate small shooters and shooters wearing ballistic vests, all I got was a blank stare from management who left the streets long before wearing vests became commonplace for patrol deputies.

The shotgun is greatly misunderstood by many in police management and by patrol staff themselves. As such, many agencies have drifted to toying with carbines firing pistol calibers. The pistol caliber carbine has its uses for people who are afraid of the shotgun, but its uses are limited. I have always felt if the pistol can't handle it, I want something big.

I like the shotgun. I attended Gunsite's three day satellite course for instructors given by Bill Jeans when he was still with Gunsite and learned a great deal. He still teaches on his own and does a great job. Jeans has an appreciation for the shotgun such that he hopes the pansies in the state legislatures never realize what a devasting weapon it is for CQB. If they ever figure it out, watch out for laws prohibiting "fighting" shotguns.

If anyone wants Bill Jeans address to attend one of his schools, back-channel me and I will give it to you.



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Bruce Stanton

[Rob Pincus]

While the average joe (fed or not) may not have an appreciation of the capabilities of the shotgun, the laws are already here. If my Benelli was manufactured after the magic date in 1994, it would be illegal (pistol grip and extended mag tube).

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-Essayons