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Old March 4, 2012, 06:17 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .22lr
"Limp Wristing" as an acceptable failure mode.
Absolutely not.
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Old March 4, 2012, 06:20 PM   #102
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I submit that limp wristing was not the issue, but just an indicator of an underlying problem. I think if you took the samples that failed and solved the underlying problem then they would not be limp wrist failures.

Limp wristing is an indicator of other problems, and should not be viewed as a problem by itself.
agreed.
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Old March 4, 2012, 06:43 PM   #103
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One of the standard tests used to type qualify an Assault Rifle is to shoot it in a very loose under arm assault position, so that the rifle is free to recoil, and is being held only by the shooters two hands. No tension against shoulder and no tension with forearm or elbow in the under arm asault position.

So an assault rifle is designed to operate when being essentially "limp wristed."

Recoil operated shotguns, like the Benelli auto loader will begin to short stroke and malfunction if you increase their weight too much with the addition of a side saddle on receiver with reloads, and/or a relatively heavy aluminum forearm with built in flash light. Light tactical (9 pellet) 00 loads will not operate but full power (12 pellet) will.

Moving onto pistols the same physics applies.

Some pistols operate better than others when held with one hand. this is an inherent advantage of the six gun over the auto loader.

Test your pistol in a variety of scenarios, including firing with the weak hand.


Semi autos of 9mm - 45 acp are less likely to have problems than pocket pistols. They just have more momentum and energy on their side. In this case, that's a good thing.
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Old March 5, 2012, 07:40 PM   #104
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So when referring to higher powered rounds, what normally does it base off of? The higher the grain? Muzzle velocity? Muzzle Energy? Or?
The PRESSURE it's loaded to.

Most SD ammo that we now use is +P, which means higher than standard pressure. It's regulated by SAAMI (sporting arms and mfg. institute) standards, as is standard pressure ammo. When you get into real hot ammo, like +P+, the standards are not so clear--or at least didn't used to be.

PRESSURE is the key. You can have high pressure and still not get much of a velocity increase with certain bullet, powder combinations.

Now days, the ammo makers have figured out how to best achieve higher velocity with the xtra +P pressures by using the proper powder and bullet combinations.
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Old March 5, 2012, 08:02 PM   #105
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Now days, the ammo makers have figured out how to best achieve higher velocity with the xtra +P pressures by using the proper powder and bullet combinations.
Exactly - A powder/bullet combination that generates a moderately-high pressure for a long period of time while the bullet's in the barrel can give the same muzzle velocity as another combination that produces a much-higher pressure for a short amount of time. In both cases, the area under the pressure/time curve is the same, but the load with the lower peak pressure will be safer and easier on the gun.
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Old March 6, 2012, 12:10 PM   #106
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madmag

Interesting use of terms. Meaningless, but interesting.

Determining, Length of Acceleration, as an exercise, is somewhat complex.

In this case, the calculations are made much simpler by our knowing that the Length of Acceleration of the bullet and powder charge, is equal to the barrel length.
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Old March 6, 2012, 03:42 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZipnZim
Meaningless, but interesting.
Yes they are meaningless, that's why I added the laugh.

There is no math equation that will tell you if the short recoil provision is too short. At least none has been stated here.
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Old March 6, 2012, 04:49 PM   #108
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excuses for imperfect autos

"Limp wristing is an indicator of other problems, and should not be viewed as a problem by itself."
How true.
An auto with a marginal amount of reliability can be caused to fail by a less than perfect grip. A perfect grip can conceal a problem.
I have autos that can not be made to fail through one-handed weak grips. That is the one I will be using in a gunfight.
Less than powerful ammo can bring out these problems also. Again I have autos that don't care about the power of the ammo.
For those of you that will always have the perfect grip and ammo, you have nothing to worry about. I on the other hand...I will not have to rely on the perfect situation.
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Old March 6, 2012, 06:41 PM   #109
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Have you read Wikipedia on Recoil Operation? Did you see the equations for Conservation of Momentum? If I know the Length of Acceleration for the Ejecta, I can derive the Length of Acceleration for the Recoiling Mass, fairly easily.
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Old March 6, 2012, 06:46 PM   #110
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Limp-wristing is a real problem. It certainly can be exacerbated by a less than ideally functioning firearm. A gun is a tool. Would you take a chain saw and hold it with one hand, and then when it kicked back and cut you, blame the chain saw or poor handling techniques? What about a circular saw or router? They all require correct handling and control. Are you going to blame the tool or learn how to use it properly? It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools.
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Old March 6, 2012, 06:55 PM   #111
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it's a poor chainsaw that doesn't cut because it's user doesn't have his wrists flexed
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Old March 6, 2012, 07:36 PM   #112
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Have you read Wikipedia on Recoil Operation? Did you see the equations for Conservation of Momentum? If I know the Length of Acceleration for the Ejecta, I can derive the Length of Acceleration for the Recoiling Mass, fairly easily.
Yes, I have read the basic equations for recoil. If you derive the limit (not just the length) for length from that then have a go.
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Old March 8, 2012, 05:11 PM   #113
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The Length of Acceleration is a specific distance, under a set of specific relationships.
There is no need to "limit" it. It's not going to get any longer.
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Old March 9, 2012, 05:01 AM   #114
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Test on the Glock G26 to see if "limp wristing would occur".

I did not purposely try to limp wrist it and hold it like a 2-year old. No, that makes no sense. I simply held it normally, one handed. I have weak wrists, am probably 100 pounds, so if anyone would "limp wrist" a pistol then it would be me.

I fired about 75 rounds, all one handed, in very very windy conditions. Windy enough, as in, a full box of Ammo laying on the table was able to be "flown and pushed off the table" by the force of the wind. I am mentioning the wind because this can affect grip, especially when firing one handed and there are huge wind gusts blowing at you, making your arm more likely to move. ESPECIALLY when your aiming and firing one handed, and your arm is 'twig' size like me. So it wasn't perfect weather outside by any means.

Test results out of 75 rounds: not a single failure or issue. All 75 rounds fired perfectly with one hand. I even did "rapid fire" where I unloaded the 10 round mag as quick as I could pull the trigger. Zero issues.
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Old March 9, 2012, 07:19 AM   #115
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I don't have an answer here but maybe just a different take on the question.

First I have never had regular Fail to Fire or Feed with any Semi-Auto that I owned and operated. That may actually put me at a disadvantage in this discussion.

I did come into firearms just a few years before Glock was beginning its first run as something special for the handgun community. In my case I went to see what all the fuss was about. Lucky or unlucky as the case may be the Glock never felt right in my hand, so much so that I did not want to fire it at all. Just did not want anything to do with it. The position of my hand, the grip angle the whole thing felt so wrong at least for me. Two handed,,,,no help....one handed....almost made me laugh I was so uncomfortable with it.

As Glock grew in popularity I had no choice but to go back. Maybe I was just not getting it for some reason. So I tried again and ....as you might have guessed.....same result. Glock had not changed anything since last I tried and nothing about me had changed either.

Some of the mechanical issues that Glock has had taken aside for a moment I wonder how many folks just did not walk away from the Glock like I did but really should not be using them, simply a poor fit of mind and body to gun.

There was a time when folks talked about Italian sports cars and their tendency to be designed around short legs and long arms. If you had long legs and short arms, it was a pretty uncomfortable cockpit but I am sure plenty of people tried because what was sexier than an Italian sports car especially back in the day when foreign cars were really foreign here in the States.

Anyway, Glock has been darned near impossible to ignore if you are at all interested in handguns. I just wonder if there are a bunch of folks out there that are just not well suited to the grip size and angles of the Glock but that did not heed their own mind and body trying to push them away from the sales counter. Can that possibly be one of the reasons why the Glock comes in for more criticism than other pistols and maybe even more than it deserves?

To be honest I have never had a semi-auto feel so different to me, feel so awkward and just plain wrong. I imagine for some the same thing happens to varying degrees, maybe not as bad for them as it was for me but maybe bad enough that they are just fighting a losing battle. I could definitely see where the Glock if wrong for a person would be that much more difficult to deal with one handed just as a proposition for why maybe the Glock comes in for so much criticism in this regard.
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Old March 9, 2012, 09:45 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZipnZim
"Short Recoil" can be, too short. In Glocks, it's Way too short.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZipnZim
"Short Recoil" can be, too short.
When the Length of Acceleration of the barrel and slide, exceeds the distance between the Unlocking Cam Surfaces at battery, the recoil provision in the gun is too short.
Again, where is the math equation that proves your point? A theoretical statement is not a proof........enough of dealing with un-proved word theory.


Quote:
Originally Posted by josh17
Test results out of 75 rounds: not a single failure or issue. All 75 rounds fired perfectly with one hand. I even did "rapid fire" where I unloaded the 10 round mag as quick as I could pull the trigger. Zero issues.
Good. Shows what happens when you don't just write off problems to the black magic of limp wristing.
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Old March 9, 2012, 10:33 AM   #117
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Maybe I don't fully understand this "Short recoil" idea.

Comparing 3 guns. G17, G19, G26.

Are you saying that the recoil is shorter on the G26, and gets longer as you move up in slide size to the G17? I was under the impression that the distance of recoil would be the same in all 3 of aforementioned guns. The recoil moves the slide backwards to unlock the link, eject the round, then chamber another.

That being said, the mass of the slide involved is most decidedly different and as such requires a different recoil spring to compensate. I would think that the open battery times for each slide would be different by a substantial margin.

It seems the hypothesis on "limp wristing" becomes more prevalent on the smaller guns with the lighter slides needing a better resistance to recoil in order to function properly. The heavier gun with the heavier slide makes it harder for the "limp wristing" phenomenon to occur.

Just an observation.
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Old March 9, 2012, 12:06 PM   #118
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Quote:
It seems the hypothesis on "limp wristing" becomes more prevalent on the smaller guns with the lighter slides needing a better resistance to recoil in order to function properly. The heavier gun with the heavier slide makes it harder for the "limp wristing" phenomenon to occur.
So if this is so then why was it so easy for the soldier boys to LW the DE at the range? It's a big heavy gun and they were malfing it almost more than they were shooting it!
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Old March 9, 2012, 12:43 PM   #119
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I assume by DE you mean Desert Eagle.

That gun is an anomaly unto itself. Probably it falls under the same category as the AMT Hardballer, .44 Automag, and all those other funky guns.

I have a G22 that I just cant make malfunction. I have a P238 that unless I have a proper grip and firm wrist, I can make stovepipe just about whenever I want to. A friends G23 I cant make malfunction, haven't tried the G27 yet.

Again it was an observation based of of my experience. As well as me asking the question regarding the "Short Recoil"
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Old March 9, 2012, 02:55 PM   #120
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About the P238, can you make it run flawless as well?

To you guys who say oh the pistol is a combat pistol so it should be flawless no matter what...I have to say that you have unrealistic expectations in the least, and at most are being lazy and you need to get out there and shoot and learn what it takes to make it work for you. Did you not have to learn how to drive? Did you not learn to ride a bike? We have to learn how to shoot, and video games don't count.

Limp wristing jams are fairly widespread now. What else is widespread? New shooters, new gun owners, due to the political climate. So there is a body of shooters out there that had no family instruction and are otherwise self taught. I think this is what we are seeing because a lot of the people who have LW jams have them with weapons that others shoot without jams. This sort of lends credibility to the poor form/inexperienced shooter theory.

I tell you now that shooting big bore revolvers taught me how to shoot small automatics as well. The same technique used to shoot a big bore revolver without planting the front sight in your forehead, is the same technique that will cure your limp wristing jams.
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Old March 9, 2012, 03:09 PM   #121
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The Equation for Conservation of Momentum, IS, the equation for Recoil.
Wikipedia on Recoil says first thing, that the Momentum of the gun, exactly, "balances" the Momentum of the Ejecta.
Exactly, doesn't exist within limits. It is a specific point.
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Old March 9, 2012, 04:21 PM   #122
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Quote:
The Equation for Conservation of Momentum, IS, the equation for Recoil.
Wikipedia on Recoil says first thing, that the Momentum of the gun, exactly, "balances" the Momentum of the Ejecta.
Exactly, doesn't exist within limits. It is a specific point.
I think what he is getting at is that you keep saying that something is "too short" but you aren't stating what is that is and what is "right".

I can say that my wife is too short to reach bowls in the top cabinets of my kitchen. If you ask me, "How short is she?" I respond that typically males are taller & broader than females of the same ethnic background. You still don't know how tall my wife is or even how far up the bowls are. Sounds a little silly doesn't it?

So, what is the "proper" unlocking distance for a recoil operated firearm and what is the length of a Glock in comparison?

The fact that a Glock will have a case failure if it unlocks early is not important. ALL semiautomatic firearms will have a case failure if they unlock before pressure in the chamber has dropped to a safe level irregardless of design. It is a function of action timing.
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Old March 9, 2012, 08:11 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dondor
Are you saying that the recoil is shorter on the G26, and gets longer as you move up in slide size to the G17?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dondor
I was under the impression that the distance of recoil would be the same in all 3 of aforementioned guns.
This was not directed at me, but to answer:

Correct.

Using 9mm Luger as an example. The recoil stroke is the same for large or small 9mm pistols. You need about 1.5" min. for proper functioning. I can measure my recoil of my LC9 and it is the same as for my service size XD9.

Short Recoil refers to the Browning system of locked breech pistols. It is a general term, but it refers to the fact that the recoil locked period is much shorter for pistols than say the Auto 5 shotgun, or .50 machine gun.

The slide recoil movement does not go up as you go up in size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crow Hunter
So, what is the "proper" unlocking distance for a recoil operated firearm and what is the length of a Glock in comparison?
Good question. I know of no equation that answers the question. But you do need to have about a min. of 1.5" slide movement for things to work.

Based on how well they work, Looks like to me that a G26 is not at any limit for un-locking distance.

Added: I think we are missing some of the other important issues involved with sub-compact semi's. When you reduce the barrel length you typically reduce the recoil spring length. As noted, you need at least 1.5" of recoil movement for 9mm Luger, but the recoil spring must allow an additional amount for solid height. Making short recoil springs work well is one reason it's harder to get the same reliability from a sub-compact as a full size pistol......not impossible, just harder.

Last edited by madmag; March 9, 2012 at 09:19 PM.
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Old March 10, 2012, 12:34 AM   #124
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Regarding the Equation for Conservation of Momentum:
If the cartridge in question employs a "Straight Wall" casing, then I know that the Force on the Case Web, is essentially the same as the Force on the base of the bullet. Consequently, Force is equalized on both sides of the equation.
I also know that the Period of Acceleration for the bullet and powder charge, is the same length as the period for the recoiling mass. So that Time, is equal on both sides of the equation.
If I know the weight of the bullet and powder charge, and the weight of the barrel, slide, and casing, and I set the Length of Acceleration for the bullet and powder charge as the barrel length, which it is, the Length of Acceleration for the recoiling mass is a proportionality of the length of acceleration for the ejecta, based on the ratio of their respective masses.
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Old March 10, 2012, 09:54 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .22lr
"Limp Wristing" as an acceptable failure mode.
Back to the main subject. The answer is still no.

I encourage anyone that thinks they have a limp wrist failure to make the extra effort and find the real cause. Then you will have confidence in your pistol without concern of gripping it perfectly to prevent failure.
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