Question Regarding CCW Draw Time...

[Sparks2112]

Myself and a group of my shooting buddies are planning to put together some CCW Training exercises. We're going to be using the set-ups that we regularly CCW with with emphasis being placed on speed to 1st shot COM.

My question is this. When drawing your firearm from underneath a cover garment, what's a good time for the draw to first shot COM at about 5 yards?

Thanks!

[GLP Standard]

When I qualified in the state of North Carolina, on our shooting course our first scenario was 3 yards, B-27 target, one hand only, 2 shots center of mass in under 2 seconds. Id say that's a good basis, however, drawing from a duty holster and drawing from a CCW holster under a coat are two different worlds. I would figure 2 seconds for the first shot one handed, or add about half a second for two hands would be a good basis to start off with.

[fourrobert13]

Shoot to get under 2 seconds. That would be a realistic time to draw and fire one shot from concealment.

[fm2]

The 2 second time is a reasonable draw time. Remember speed is only one measure of the drawstroke, you need a robust, Murphy resistant, combat drawstroke.

You can also add a layer of tasking to your training. Some examples are, holding a prop you can drop (keys, bottle of water, etc) in strong hand & support hand; verbal challenge with physical start signal (ie. tap on shoulder); while seated and adding a single side-step (L & R) draw and shoot.

You can see how these affect your times.

[Lurper]

You're asking the wrong question. What you should be asking is; what is a good time for someone of your skill level with the equipment you are using. You should strive for about a 1 second first shot ultimately. But, if you haven't been taught to draw properly and can't do it from an unconcealed holster, then you probably never will. There is a lot more to a fast draw than most people realize. Get someone to teach you how to draw properly, then practice. Once you have the technique down, then experiment with different holsters and position. Lastly, don't lose sight of the fact that drawing and draw speed play a minute part in most CCW armed confrontations and extremely rarely affects the outcome.

[Double Naught Spy]

A realistic time to first shot (and hitting the appropriate target area such as the "-0" zone on an IDPA target, drawn from concealment, hands at side or in surrender position, cold draw, is about 1.9-2.2 seconds. That, of course, is knowing that you are about to draw and knowing you will fire.

A good time would be 1.7-1.9 seconds.

Anything below 1.7 is very good.

Note that these are cold draws for normal people, drawing from concealment with their normal carry rigs, gear, and ammo. The drill we used to do for our group was to show up at the range and do nothing more than put on muffs and eye protection, step to the line, wait for the tone, shoot the drill. There was none of these business about retucking shirts, adjusting concealment garments (vests, sportscoats, sweatshirts, etc.), no adjusting holsters, no getting a sight picture before getting to draw - nothing. If you drew a handful of shirt, then you shot the drill accordingly. There were no do-overs. We would then record the times for each week. BTW, we were shooting Mozambique drills at 7 yards as our standard test.

Simply put, most people suck worse than they think when they have to do a cold drill like this and it is a cold drill that is going to most closely approximate what you might be able to do in real life. Few people get a chance to warm up and get all settled with their gear before a fight. So the idea was that it was just normal day. We get out of our cars and go into a business when we get threatened and have to respond. It wasn't truly real life, but it was a good way to start the shooting session with a solid 'cold' evaluation.

We found that folks had trouble hitting all three shots in the appropriate zones in less than 2.5 seconds. Usually it was 2 out of 3. Even at greater than 2.5 seconds, folks didn't do a whole lot better.

Many of us learned a lot of our daily wear wasn't conducive to a quick response. I ended up learning a lot about drawing through a handful of shirt, having vests wrap-up my hand during a sweep, and which holster positions were really best for my normal activities.

Of course, the difference between the cold draw and then repeating the drill after we had all warmed up was like night and day. We had folks that would accomplish the same drill in less than 2.0 seconds, hitting properly, when they only were able to accomplish 2 out of 3 hits in 2.5 seconds or more. In fact, if the drill was repeated just twice more after the initial cold shoot, we found that people's times and scoring improved a good bit. In other words, you can actually warm up very quickly such that you will see immediate improvement...which is good to know if you are in a prolonged gunfight, but being warmed up isn't a great indicator of how you will start.

The moral of the story is to not judge your great skill based on your warmed up time and scoring, but on what you can do cold. As this is a defensive practice for you, your abilities when you are shooting cold is what you are going to be using in real life and you really should have a realistic idea of those cold abilities. Over time, your cold skills will improve, but it may not be a quick process, so don't be surprised by slow progress or that you may plateau a bit.

[Brit]

At a concealed carry portion of a conference , out side of San Diego, I was monitoring this class, a new firearms instructor was teaching it, did well, considering all his students were firearms instructors!

My cover garment was a vest, lots of pockets, lot in them as well, Kydex, close fitting Madd Dog outside the belt holster. Too bad it was for the old style of Glock, no silly bayonet attachment on the under belly.

Target with organs on it (no it did not bleed) 4 yds, at that time I had been shooting for a while! 50 years. My 3 shots all hit the heart, that is what I was aiming at, and it was real close.

He gave us a card with the 3 times, mine I remember, kind of not easily forgettable, 1 second/.99second/.98second. This was for one shot, into two hands.

The secret, the shot breaks as the hands stop. My hits in two inches.

How too? Dry fire/Dry fire. Live fire/Live fire.

[Flyboy_451]

You might want to take a look at this thread that I wrote awhile back...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307242

Some ideas on developing a good solid technique for drawing from concealment.


Justin

[fourrobert13]

Here is my advice. Time your current draw and fire. Then practice, practice, and practice some more until you improve on your own time. Then continue this process until you are satisfied. On top of teaching, I shoot and train to the sum of 2,000 rounds per month. Do things until they become habit, and then you don't have to think about it as much. Just practice from your method of carry. From concealment IMO, 2 seconds and under is a good time.

[evan1293]

You should strive for about a 1 second first shot ultimately.

+1....and your only going to get there with perfect fundamentals as was said. And if you try to go fast, guess what, you won't. Economy of motion and smoothness will help lower your times.

Lastly, don't lose sight of the fact that drawing and draw speed play a minute part in most CCW armed confrontations and extremely rarely affects the outcome.

Again, I agree...I can't remember where I read it, either from Dave Kenick's Armed Response or from one of Mas Ayoob's books but I remember reading that you should practice drawing and holding your fire for about 90% of the draws you do. For the remaining 10%, then draw and fire immediately. You don't want to condition yourself to always pulling the trigger once the gun is drawn. That could get you in a lot of trouble...especially if you were a LEO.

[aroundlsu]

For the last year my average has been about 1.5 seconds using a timer with a random start, drawn from concealment, 3yds, A-Zone hits only. However, a state trooper showed me a technique recently called the interview position where you start with your hands together then draw using only the motions that are absolutely necessary. Using his advice I got my first shot down to about 1.25 seconds. I can get 3 shots out and on target in well under 2 seconds. This is using a P7 and a Milt Sparks VMII with a Polo-style shirt.

+1 on practicing getting the gun out and yelling "DROP THE WEAPON" or "STOP" or something similar. Remember, statistically, 90% of the time you draw your weapon you will not have to fire. If you learn to draw and yell in a more intimidating manner I imagine you can get that 90% up much higher. Remember Tom Cruise in Collateral when he first draws on the cab driver after the body fell on the cab. That was a VERY INTIMIDATING draw.

[358minus1]

I run shooting matches for a fairly small SC club. At our last "draw from concealment" match, there were 18 shooters. The match consisted of drawing and shooting a single shot at an IDPA target. We repeated the drill at 3 feet, 3 yards, 5 yards, 10 yards and about 15 yards. Starting position was arms relaxed at your sides. The better shooters were able to draw and shoot a single shot at the closer targets in less than 1.5 seconds. My best shot (appendix IWB) was 1.25 seconds at the very closest target with no aim, just point and shoot. The best time was 1.22 seconds for the closest distance. My best time using a rough sight picture was 1.33 seconds (3 & 5 yards). Most people were in the range of 1.3 - 2 seconds. Some of the less experienced and older folks were well over 2-3 seconds. These times were derived using a shot timer.

If you can draw and hit at close range in under 2 seconds, I would say you are well skilled.

[Teuthis]

When you must suddenly draw your weapon from concealment you have already lost your tactical advantage. Draw it before you need it. Be alert and spot the danger before it jumps you. When you are practicing the quick draw in front of a mirror, you are not in danger and you can develop some skills. But in the moment of real peril, until you have been there and experienced it, you cannot realize just how much things might not go as smoothly as you imagine. I suggest that you put some time into learning awareness and acute observation so that your weapon is already drawn and ready when danger comes.

[GlockJockey]

I seem to recall some research being conducted on draw times by Dr. Bill Lewinski of the Force Science Research Centre.

http://www.forcescience.org/

However I can't remember if the research covered CCW or normal duty wear.

Whoops! Found the study, but it doesn't appear to be for CCW. I've put the link here in case it might be of benefit anyway.

http://www.forcescience.org/articles/biomechanics.pdf

Cheers!

[Sparks2112]

Thanks for all the suggestions!

[Seeker]

Practice practice practice - can't practice to much, that said, this ain't the ol' west and the clock ain't about to strike noon.

(CCW ain't easy. It's always best to never have to slap leather, but not all things work out for the best.)

Judgment is Key!

Your "SA" should let you know when you are about to need your hogs leg. Move off line, step back and make ready - hand on sidearm, or pistol crawls into your hand and hides behind your leg as situation warrents - never brandish!

CHECK SIX! (of course you do this as a matter of course all the time, but CHECK SIX!)