The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old March 11, 2015, 12:59 PM   #26
Mitchum
Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2015
Location: Illinois
Posts: 48
Quote:
What Rehn found was that shooters who were not highly skilled -- this would include new shooters, inexperienced shooters, and shooters who had taken no classes other than the basic carry permit class -- gave up a LOT of skill when they moved to smaller guns. He also found that good shooters could move down to the small guns with very little, or no, loss of skill.
Great information, pax! Thanks for taking the time to share.

Though I've been practicing and see some improvement I'm still a new shooter and would likely be one of those that shoots much better with the primary.

Another questions for all - how much of a difference will caliber make, if any? When I started shooting several months ago I made the decision that, should I ever have too shoot in self-defense, I wanted the caliber with stopping power - I chose 45 caliber.

Is there a noticeable difference between say shooting my concealed gun, a Kahr CM 45, versus a concealed 9mm?

At the end of the day I realize I'm a newbie and just need more range time and maybe more instruction. The good part is that I like shooting and as timer permits improvement will come
Mitchum is offline  
Old March 11, 2015, 01:19 PM   #27
Neal_G.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 1, 2010
Posts: 227
I can shoot my carry guns just as accurately, but that's because my carry guns are usually compact or full size pistols.

However, I've never been willing to carry anything smaller than a Glock 26, which I feel is about as small as you can get and still have a accurate, capable 'fighting pistol'. With my build, I can conceal larger guns effectively even in t-shirts, so why should I carry something much smaller and less accurate for me?
Neal_G. is offline  
Old March 13, 2015, 04:41 AM   #28
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,600
As you never know when your gun fight will arrive, if ever, some basics need to be followed, enhance your shooting skills, is #1. Two hands, and both single.
An extra magazine, a good flashlight, on your belt, behind your spare mag.

Carry enough gun (capacity) and calibre. 9mm is better, you lose nothing in lethality, with 9/40/45, with modern ammunition.

But you gain in capacity, and rapidity of follow up shots, with for instance my CCW a Glock 19.

Carry the same gun, in the same place, always, do not change your pistol like you change your socks.
Brit is offline  
Old March 13, 2015, 06:52 AM   #29
baddarryl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 29, 2011
Location: Cape Fear!
Posts: 1,543
Quote:
As you never know when your gun fight will arrive, if ever, some basics need to be followed, enhance your shooting skills, is #1. Two hands, and both single.
An extra magazine, a good flashlight, on your belt, behind your spare mag.

Carry enough gun (capacity) and calibre. 9mm is better, you lose nothing in lethality, with 9/40/45, with modern ammunition.

But you gain in capacity, and rapidity of follow up shots, with for instance my CCW a Glock 19.

Carry the same gun, in the same place, always, do not change your pistol like you change your socks.
Great post, but for some it is not possible to always carry the same. I must change up for work. I would say do the same routine as you say with each weapon carried, but try to keep that to the absolute minimum.
baddarryl is offline  
Old March 13, 2015, 08:04 AM   #30
45_auto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2011
Location: Southern Louisiana
Posts: 1,399
Quote:
Originally Posted by brit
9mm is better, you lose nothing in lethality, with 9/40/45, with modern ammunition.
So why are .40's and .45's so popular as carry weapons if a 9mm is just as lethal?

Do you have anything besides your opinion to justify your statement?

All of the studies that I've seen that are backed by actual research and fact conclude that bigger holes are better than smaller holes and more holes are better than less holes.
45_auto is offline  
Old March 13, 2015, 09:32 AM   #31
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,836
Posted by Brit:
Quote:
Carry enough gun (capacity) and calibre. 9mm is better, you lose nothing in lethality, with 9/40/45, with modern ammunition.
Lethality really isn't what we are looking for, is it?

Quote:
But you gain in capacity, and rapidity of follow up shots, with for instance my CCW a Glock 19.
True.

Quote:
Carry the same gun, in the same place, always, do not change your pistol like you change your socks.
Good thinking.

Posted by 45_auto:
Quote:
So why are .40's and .45's so popular as carry weapons if a 9mm is just as lethal?
Probably, because many people confuse the boom and blast at the muzzle, and the recoil, with wounding effectiveness.

And/or--they remember the legend of the .45 in the Philippines. I had always thought the .45 to be superior, so I bout one. Now a carry a 9MM.

I am not alone.

Quote:
All of the studies that I've seen that are backed by actual research and fact conclude that bigger holes are better than smaller holes and more holes are better than less holes.
True, but consider how little difference there is in diameter, and the importance of "more holes.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old March 13, 2015, 09:54 AM   #32
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,600
45 Auto,

The FBI going back to the 9mm cartridge says something, they have lots of research money to do just that, research.
Brit is offline  
Old March 13, 2015, 11:37 AM   #33
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: In a state of flux
Posts: 7,520
<Moderator Hat On>

Caliber debates fall outside the Tactics & Training subject area, so ...

Please take the caliber wars down to the handgun discussion forums. I'm sure the mods in those forums will thank us for it. Those guys love that stuff.

</Moderator Hat>

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old March 13, 2015, 07:01 PM   #34
mavracer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2008
Location: midwest
Posts: 4,204
Obviously I can't shoot my LCR as well as my 6" GP 100, but I shoot the little guns really well.
__________________
rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6
Quote:
originally posted my Mike Irwin
My handguns are are for one purpose only, though...
The starter gun on the "Fat man's mad dash tactical retreat."
mavracer is offline  
Old March 13, 2015, 08:35 PM   #35
Mobuck
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 6,847
I've used my "carry pistol" to shoot 3 coyotes, 4-5 groundhogs, 5-6 skunks, and 3-4 coons at ranges from 10-40 yards. There's no question in my mind as to whether I can put my bullets on a target @10-25'.
Mobuck is offline  
Old March 13, 2015, 09:05 PM   #36
Dragline45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 30, 2010
Posts: 3,511
My carry gun right now is a S&W Shield, and while I don't shoot it as well as my full size handguns it is perfectly acceptable for combat accuracy. I will be switching out the trigger soon though, my Shield came with the Massachusetts compliant trigger, and it is hands down the heaviest trigger I have ever felt on any gun. While I shoot the Shield pretty well, I know that I could shoot it a whole lot better once I replace that trigger.
Dragline45 is offline  
Old March 13, 2015, 11:40 PM   #37
Limnophile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2015
Location: Issaquah, Washington
Posts: 976
When I got my CPL three years ago I had in my mind 1 minute-of-angle (moa) precision as a goal from my rifle shooting days. Needless to say, I was greatly disappointed with my initial results with centerfire pistols. I turned to the internet to find various precision benchmarks to better assess my performance. Here are some I've found standardized to moa, from high precision to lower:
  • For $7K you can buy a custom full-size 1911 that will shoot 2.0-in groups at 50 yd from a Ransom rest -- that's 3.8 moa.
  • You can buy a custom carry 1911 chambered for $5K that is guaranteed to shoot 1.5-in groups at 25 yd, from a Ransom rest I believe -- that's 5.7 moa.
  • The black center of a 50-yd slow fire bullseye target (the 8-ring or better) is 8.0-in in diameter (bullseye shooters can use only one hand) -- 15 moa.
  • The black center (9-ring and up) of a 25-yd timed fire and rapid fire bullseye target has a diameter of 5.5 in -- 21 moa.
  • The -0 thoracic "bullseye" on an IDPA target has an 8-in diameter, and the furthest distance it can be placed is 35 yd -- 22 moa.
  • 80% of IDPA targets must be placed between 5 and 15 yd; at 15 yd the -0 thoracic "bulleye" is 51 moa.
  • The NRA Pistol Marksman rating (only the 3rd rung on ladder of that program) requires placing 10 shots within a 6-in diameter plate with an unsupported two-hand grip with no time constraints -- 115 moa.
Conclusion: Handguns are nowhere near as precise as rifles. I would hope most carry guns are capable of achieving NRA Marksman performance, so that's a good initial goal. 115 moa equates to an 8.4-in group at 7 yd. I have shot my four CZ compacts in one range session, four 5-shot groups from each gun, in an attempt to compare them. The precision among them was statistically indiscernible, and the overall average precision was 34 moa. My goal is to get that down to 20 moa.
Limnophile is offline  
Old March 14, 2015, 02:31 PM   #38
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,836
For Concealed Carry...

The trick is to balance speed and precision.

After one has learned the basics, it is important to consider what effective defensive shooting will likely entail.

Rather than shooting at a stationary two-dimensional target marked with the important target areas, the defender is likely to be faced with a large, rapidly moving, three dimensional target that is not facing him or her.

But--inside that target, where they cannot be seen, are the several real targets---small targets--the vital parts of the anatomy that must be damaged to effect anything other than a psychological stop.

Even if the scene were to unfold in "slow motion", the defender would have a tough time deciding where to shoot the attacker to do that damage. And the scene will not develop slowly.

The targets are small, hidden, and moving. Hitting the vital internal parts will likely be a matter of luck. That means that the defender will have to hit with multiple shots in very rapid succession.

Personally, I think that getting three or four shots into an area the size of the top of a standard full length tissue box in one second at three to five yards is very good indeed.

Well, I cannot do any better, anyway.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old March 14, 2015, 02:46 PM   #39
1-DAB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 5, 2010
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 473
good summary Limnophile.

my rule of thumb is if my shots can be covered by my hand, i'm doing ok. but the zero down in a IDPA target is perfectly acceptable, both for competition, and for practical use.

part two: use good ammo that has passed the FBI tests.
1-DAB is offline  
Old March 14, 2015, 03:02 PM   #40
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,836
Posted by 1-DAB:
Quote:
my rule of thumb is if my shots can be covered by my hand, i'm doing ok.
At least one well-known instructor will tell you that if your shots can be covered by your hand, you are shooting too slowly. I agree with that.

But--it is a probably a good generalization tp say that at least one dimension of each of the vital parts of the anatomy is about the size of a closed fist.

The problems are (1) that are moving and (2) that one cannot see where they are within the attacker's body.

In self defense, one is not shooting at a stationary two dimensional target with marked scoring areas.

Equally importantly, one is not shooting at a homogenous target such as a water jug, on which every hit counts.

What that means is that one must elect to shoot several shots very quickly.

Quote:
part two: use good ammo that has passed the FBI tests.
I could not agree more.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old March 14, 2015, 06:15 PM   #41
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 22,368
Quote:
At least one well-known instructor will tell you that if your shots can be covered by your hand, you are shooting too slowly. I agree with that.
There's truth to that, however it's important understand that the point of the statement is maintaining a balance of speed and accuracy that is appropriate to the circumstances of the situation.

A lot of people hear a comment like the one quoted above and get the idea that there's no benefit to being able to produce hand-sized groups at 3 yards and so they're satisfied with groups at that distance that can't be covered with a dinner plate. If they are ever required to shoot at longer distances, they may not be able to score solid hits.

For example, a person who can shoot properly sized self-defense groups at 25 yards would need to have the ability to shoot one hole groups at 3 yards.

In a self-defense situation, one wants to be able to rely on a skill level that automatically assesses the range and selects a rate of fire that is appropriate to the distance involved. It's just as counter-productive to shoot very slowly at 3 yards--making solid hits but giving the attacker the opportunity to fire multiple shots to every one of yours--as it is to blast away at a high rate of fire at 25 yards and never connect.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old March 14, 2015, 06:45 PM   #42
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,836
Posted by JohnKSa:
Quote:
...it's important understand that the point of the statement is maintaining a balance of speed and accuracy that is appropriate to the circumstances of the situation.
Absolutely.

Quote:
A lot of people hear a comment like the one quoted above and get the idea that there's no benefit to being able to produce hand-sized groups at 3 yards and so they're satisfied with groups at that distance that can't be covered with a dinner plate. If they are ever required to shoot at longer distances, they may not be able to score solid hits.
Which would, of course, be an incorrect idea.

However, when one considers the odds, one should probably spend most of his or her time practicing firing rapidly with less precision at distances of three to five yards.

It is that judgment that leads us to conclude that a compact pistol with a short sight radius and a long trigger pull will suffice very well most of the time. If I thought otherwise. I would probably make a daily habit of strapping on my STI Guardian, with its fine sights and great trigger pull.

I bought that firearm at a time when I was more concerned about accuracy at longer ranges.

My EDC is a compromise. My practice varies but I spend most of it firing fast at short range.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old March 14, 2015, 06:59 PM   #43
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,600
When shooting at a human body, it is not a cardboard target, so shots fired have to be aimed at the center of the torso. The torso you are facing. The mass.

It is kind of easy, if this person is facing you, square on. Some one pointing a gun, with for instance, their left foot forward, a bullet that should have gone through a lung, ripped straight through a muscle, still not pleasant, but not as devastating as a sucking chest wound. Even more difficult, some one shooting with one hand.
Brit is offline  
Old March 14, 2015, 07:07 PM   #44
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,836
Posted by Brit:
Quote:
When shooting at a human body, it is not a cardboard target, so shots fired have to be aimed at the center of the torso. The torso you are facing. The mass.
Yes, that's what they tell you to shoot at.

Quote:
...not as devastating as a sucking chest wound.
Keep in the mind that a shot in the lung that does not hit anything that will immediately disable, or two such shots in the same lung, may not be very devastating at all.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old March 14, 2015, 07:15 PM   #45
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 22,368
Quote:
Which would, of course, be an incorrect idea.
Of course. Your point was correct and well-taken. My comments were to aimed at those who would misuse them to rationalize inadequate performance.
Quote:
...one should probably spend most of his or her time practicing firing rapidly with less precision at distances of three to five yards.
A reasonable strategy. Since I find myself in the position of the devils advocate, I think it's worth mentioning that in my experience, shooters who practice producing good groups at 15-25 yards, firing at the relatively slow rate of a shot or two a second, generally have little problem speeding up and shooting appropriately sized groups at 3-5 yards. On the other hand, it seems noticeably rarer to find people who primarily focus on firing rapid "self-defense-sized" groups at 3-5 yards who also have the ability to slow down a little and make good hits at longer ranges.

Even those who can do both can have difficulty rapidly assessing range and accurately varying their rate of fire on the fly to insure solid hits. I see (and hear) people erring on both sides at timed shooting matches where the range to the targets varies considerably over the stage. I will hear people shooting the entire stage at the same cadence regardless of the fact that the very close targets can be effectively addressed with an extremely high rate of fire--almost ignoring the sights--while those at the much longer distances will require time for sight alignment and demand a much slower cadence.

All that said, it is certainly true that those who tend to focus exclusively on slow fire and extreme accuracy, aren't practicing effectively for overwhelmingly most likely self-defense scenario.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old March 14, 2015, 08:08 PM   #46
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: In a state of flux
Posts: 7,520
In a weekend class, with very little work, any good instructor can take someone who has mastered good trigger control and easily get them shooting very very fast for self defense situations. And with good instruction, they will remain adequately accurate at speed. They will be able to balance speed and precision at different distances and in different scenarios, because they have some precision to work with.

In that same weekend class, there will likely be another shooter on the line, someone who has spent a lot of time jerking the trigger as fast as he can in practice. Because he has no foundation in good trigger control, that fast shooter's accuracy sucks coming into the class and it will take him a LOT of hard work to overcome that problem. It probably won't happen in the context of a single weekend, no matter how good the instructor may be. He won't be able to balance speed and precision for self defense work, because he has no precision to bring to the table.

Also? Under stress, you will shoot faster. But you won't shoot more accurately.

Things to consider. For me, my advice is to build a good foundation before you start hammering away.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old March 14, 2015, 08:45 PM   #47
1-DAB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 5, 2010
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 473
Good discussion.

Your target doesn't change size, but your distance does. So keeping all your holes in an 8" or so circle is the goal.

Closer? You can go faster. Further away? Proper aiming and trigger control become very important.

One reason I like IDPA. Good mix of speed and accuracy.

If you can't hit the target going slow, speeding up won't help.
1-DAB is offline  
Old March 14, 2015, 08:59 PM   #48
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 3,836
Posted by pax:
Quote:
...Under stress, you will shoot faster. But you won't shoot more accurately.

Things to consider. For me, my advice is to build a good foundation before you start hammering away
Very wise counsel....as usual.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old March 14, 2015, 09:57 PM   #49
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,508
Quote:
Can you shoot your concealed gun with the same accuracy that you shoot other handguns with?
Dunno ...... have not had enough spare cash to shoot any of the "just for fun guns" ..... so probably could shoot the Carry gun BETTER than any other- the Carry gun gets all the trigger time and pistol ammo budget these days.
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old March 14, 2015, 10:47 PM   #50
Striker1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2004
Location: TX
Posts: 708
Quote:
I have big hands and with the Kahr I just don't seem to be able to consistently press the trigger unlike with the other two I mentioned.

Is this something you just work around and become more proficient with as you shoot more with the concealed gun? Or, is it just too small for my size of hands? I read of others using much larger guns for concealed and am considering it but don't want to switch if eventually, with more practice, I can make the Kahr work. The idea is to conceal and it will be easier to conceal the Kahr than a larger gun.
This is what got my attention. I once had a Kahr CW9 and the same problem with the trigger due to the size of my hand...specifically, the trigger reach and the fact that the grip was so small my trigger finger would actually come into contact with my thumb as I pressed it to the rear. My advice is look for a different pistol that fits your hand size better. The answer for me was a S&W Shield. Other than that the Kahr worked fine...it was just too small for me.
Striker1 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10430 seconds with 9 queries