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Old March 5, 2015, 05:12 PM   #1
AK103K
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Shooting and Fighting Aren't The Same...

Good read by Steve Collins here over at the Suarez blog.

It pokes strongly at points many seem to miss, or seem to not want to get into.

I know Suarez can be a touchy topic to some, but I think his philosophy on things is spot on.

http://blog.suarezinternational.com/...l#.VPjQx3zF-Sp
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Old March 5, 2015, 08:50 PM   #2
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ewww. Suarez... Would u elaborate what the points you felt were accurate? I refuse to go to any of his websites. He's a bit to off for my tastes.
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Old March 5, 2015, 09:00 PM   #3
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ewww. Suarez...
Like I said.

Read the article, and see where you are in the scheme of things.
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Old March 5, 2015, 09:35 PM   #4
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No thanks. There are plenty of other papers from other professionals I'd prefer to read. The concept that gunfighting and recreational shooting or even defensive shooting practice being very different isnt a novel or rare concept I've read about it from others Ayoob and such and would be willing to debate or agree with the topics you seem to agree with if you'd choose to share them.

Suarez & co. is to different for me I'd probably get along with JY before them and thats saying quite a bit.

Just from life experience i'd say most don't factor in the stress of combat assuming their skills in combat will be equal to their skills on the range.
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Old March 5, 2015, 10:14 PM   #5
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That's was a good read, sounds very logical and straight forward. I'm no expert but the way I see it is target shooting is about achieving perfection where as when fighting you don't have to be perfect just good enough to hit what your aiming at and faster than the BG. Practicing shooting at targets is good but if that's all you know how to when it comes to a fight your screwed. You can't just stand in one place and expect your target to be still whilst you pop a cap in it.
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Old March 6, 2015, 09:01 AM   #6
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I never heard of Suarez before, and just read through a few of his posts. Seemed like pretty reasonable stuff.

What's the issue with him? Not to stir the pot. Just curious.

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Old March 6, 2015, 10:12 AM   #7
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Shooting is a subset of fighting.

Imagine a large circle, call it 'fighting'. Bisecting it is several smaller circles. One is 'shooting', another 'tactics', still another 'techniques', another 'tools', and so on.

Some of the 'shooting' circle is inside the 'fighting' circle, as is the others. And some of the other circles bisect each other (that is they overlap.)

Quite a bit of one's shooting techniques can be adapted to fighting as fighting is a rather broad subject from static defense to fluid offense to surprise attack to ambush to close quarters to.... Well you see a rather broad and deep subject.

Same with tools, techniques, tactics, and strategy.

Even bullseye slowfire can be used in fighting in the right circumstances.

What the author is trying to do is simply what is to be learned for those who do not want to master the subject (nothing wrong with that... not everyone has the time to train often and intensely.)

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Old March 6, 2015, 11:15 AM   #8
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What's the issue with him?
That depends on who you talk to. He's opinionated and not bashful about it. Hes had a bit of a sketchy past, according to some, but thats up to you to decide if theres anything to it, and if it bothers you.

Personally, I try to look into and learn as much as I can about as much as I can, and adapt to my needs, what I find useful to me. So far, I think his philosophy is more in line with mine with many things. Less BS and more substance.

But thats me. I have a pretty broad experience with a lot of different things, and Im not bashful or embarrassed about learning from "everyone", if I feel they have something to offer.

Trying new things, and proving them right or wrong for you, also helps keep things fresh. If you feel youve learned all you need to, and stop learning, you stagnate. Stagnation isnt a good thing.

Quote:
Shooting is a subset of fighting.
It is, but Ive seen quite a few who seem to think that simply because they stuff a pistol in their belt or pocket, they have everything covered, and theres no need to bother with the rest of the package. Much of the point of the article above.
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Old March 6, 2015, 11:47 AM   #9
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If you want to discuss the article - fine. Someone summarize the major points.

Next if you want to discuss the personality of its author, we don't care. Don't do that.

Google can bring that up if you are interested.

Hint for future posts.
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Old March 6, 2015, 12:57 PM   #10
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It's probably not so much a measurable percentage as a "word of thumb", but several experienced, BTDT types in military and LE circles (Paul Howe comes to mind) have offered the opinion that shooting is no more than "10% of the problem".

That notion was an affront to my sensibilities when I first learned of it. I have since come to believe that it is true, and that the actual percentage is quite a bit smaller.
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Old March 6, 2015, 03:32 PM   #11
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Yes. There are people who stuff a gun in their belt and think they have everything covered. On the other side there are people who learn some tactics, shoot only when forced to, no other practice, and they think they are good to go. Mark
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Old March 6, 2015, 03:48 PM   #12
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Ya...I just wish I had access to the FBI's shoot houses & firing ranges, that I helped survey construct in 2001, down at Quantico, Virginia.
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Old March 6, 2015, 04:21 PM   #13
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From the article:
Quote:
The fighter will .... and then quickly develop a plan. Failing that, he’ll move forward with speed, aggressiveness and violence of action, shoot them to the ground, and carry on from there.
"The fighter" may do that, but if a citizen does that, both the video and witness testimony would likely be damaging to his claim of justified self defense.
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Old March 6, 2015, 04:43 PM   #14
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Shooting is only one part of handling a situation that may require shooting. The will to actually pull the trigger on a person might be the most important. There are plenty of cases where a person who has never fired a weapon have used one to successfully defend themselves. I wouldn't advise someone to bet their life on it. Mark
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Old March 6, 2015, 04:48 PM   #15
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Quote:
"The fighter" may do that, but if a citizen does that, both the video and witness testimony would likely be damaging to his claim of justified self defense.
Self defense is self defense, and once you start to defend yourself, there is nothing defensive about it. It should be nothing but pure aggression against those who would do you harm. Thinking anything but that in the instant, will likely get you killed.
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Old March 6, 2015, 05:29 PM   #16
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lots of practice

A very different shooting discipline but I think Kim Rohde the Olympic skeet shooter described it the best, she says you have to practice until shooting is as natural as walking. You get up to walk across the room you don't think stand up and then think now left right left right you just do it you have to practice shooting until you can just do it with out going down the list of all you have to do. But then she seems to be able to afford more ammo to practice with than I can
bb
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Old March 6, 2015, 05:35 PM   #17
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Posted by AK103K:
Quote:
Self defense is self defense, and once you start to defend yourself, there is nothing defensive about it. It should be nothing but pure aggression against those who would do you harm.
Self defense is the use of necessary force to prevent yourself or someone else from being seriously injured, if you have not provoked an altercation or have attempted to withdraw, and if you do not use more force than was reasonably necessary at any time.

"Necessary" in that context means two things: that you have no other means to protect yourself, and that you have done what was safely possible to avoid having to use force.

The problem is that it will likely be very difficult for an actor who did in fact "move forward with speed" to successfully counter accusations that he had not met those requirements.

That is covered extremely well in this book. It is a very long read, but it is worth it.
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Old March 6, 2015, 05:41 PM   #18
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Personally, I try to look into and learn as much as I can about as much as I can, and adapt to my needs, what I find useful to me. So far, I think his philosophy is more in line with mine with many things. Less BS and more substance.
This is all you need to know: "If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck"

Adapt from there......
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Old March 6, 2015, 06:52 PM   #19
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What's so wrong with this Suarez guy?
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Old March 6, 2015, 06:52 PM   #20
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I think of force is also dictated by the laws of the state your in. If I'm not mistaken some states require you to only use when there is no alternative while some allow you to stand your ground.
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Old March 6, 2015, 06:57 PM   #21
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Quote:
What's so wrong with this Suarez guy?
Short answer (long thread) for those who don't want to do their homework otherwise: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159985

Now that said: the personality of the trainer isn't at issue here. No more on that subject, please.

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Old March 6, 2015, 07:08 PM   #22
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"Shooting isn't fighting" - I get that. Another wizened philosopher once said "a man's gotta know his limitations". I know I'm not a "fighter" being on the back side of middle age and 140lbs soaking wet. If the altercation turns to hand-to-hand, I'm going to be at a huge disadvantage against most. Shooting, or the threat of the shot, is probably the only chance I've got to survive a "fight".
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Old March 6, 2015, 07:20 PM   #23
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I’ve never heard of the author before, so I had no preconceived opinions before reading “Shooting and Fighting Aren’t the Same.” I have to say I agree with 95% of the authors premise. I’m a firm believer that shooting and shooting well is an art form, one I’m still trying to master. Fighting is a mindset, one that requires the fighter to forget every idea of fair play and decency that has been installed in us, and do whatever is necessary to survive. In the real world there are no “dirty fighters,” just winners and losers.
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Old March 7, 2015, 01:08 PM   #24
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I've never heard of Mr. Suarez either. I'll read Pax's post later.
I get what he is saying. But I don't know if he does.

A fighter studies the art of fighting in all it's facets. If the fight turns to fists, great he's studied. If it turns to knives, cool he's studied that also. He is prepared to do whatever to win. A shooter, he observes is someone who relies on his one skill to get him through. He could also say "a boxer is not a fighter."
Ok, point taken.
I get off the boat when people quote Musashi to me.
The samurai class had the luxury to study fighting in all its forms. That was their job. The serfs provided them food. The local daimyo provided them housing. Those of us with jobs and families and volunteer duties and hobbies and kids' hobbies and the wife's hobbies don't have quite the same set of priorities. If CJ has time to learn how to use a pistol and practice and compete and he puts all his chips on the biggest hammer in the legal suitcase of self-defense tools, it might be the best choice for a person who has limited time resources.
Should a person who is carrying also be willing to use? Yes, I believe that a person who is carrying a self-defense tool of any stripe (mace, knife, pokey key chain thing, etc) should be willing and able to use it. If that person isn't well versed in 5 different martial art forms as well.... So be it.
I believe it was Musashi who also said "When I face off in a duel one of three things will happen. I will cut down my adversary. He will cut me down or we will both die." Even trained fighters can't avoid the fact that sometimes results of a fight are beyond their control. I'll look that last quote up again, but I stand behind the idea that the best way to win a gun (any) fight is to not be there when it happens. The second best way is the have the biggest tool to use in the fight. I choose a gun.
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Old March 7, 2015, 03:18 PM   #25
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Quote:
Self defense is the use of necessary force to prevent yourself or someone else from being seriously injured, if you have not provoked an altercation or have attempted to withdraw, and if you do not use more force than was reasonably necessary at any time.

"Necessary" in that context means two things: that you have no other means to protect yourself, and that you have done what was safely possible to avoid having to use force.

The problem is that it will likely be very difficult for an actor who did in fact "move forward with speed" to successfully counter accusations that he had not met those requirements.
You have to make the choice of whats important to you as to what your life, and/or that of those around you are worth, and how you deal with it.

I understand the general lethal force rules, and what is expected, but I see nothing in them, that does not allow you to protect yourself, by any means necessary. Once things start, your full focus should be on winning. Anything else, will get in the way, and likely cause you to not give your full attention to the task at hand.

Worrying about what others might think in the aftermath, while things are in play, is only going to be detrimental in solving the problem. Focus on the problem, and solve it. Worry later.

If youre justified to use force, then your justified to use it, and use it as aggressively as you possibly can. If youre hesitant to do so, you may want to think about things some more.

Quote:
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck"
No doubt.

Best to be the teacher here, than the student.

Quote:
I know I'm not a "fighter".....
Id say youve certainly got the loser convinced.

Quote:
If the altercation turns to hand-to-hand, I'm going to be at a huge disadvantage against most.
Whos fault is that?

People lose more because they have already convinced themselves, they cant win. Fear is the mind killer.

Fighting isnt always about brawn (not that that doesnt help), its about knowledge and skill. If you havent bothered to keep yourself in shape, and learn even just some basic skills, and even worse, convinced yourself in your own mind, you dont stand a chance, then youre your own worst enemy.

Quote:
Fighting is a mindset, one that requires the fighter to forget every idea of fair play and decency that has been installed in us, and do whatever is necessary to survive. In the real world there are no “dirty fighters,” just winners and losers.
Well said, and very much the truth.

Quote:
If that person isn't well versed in 5 different martial art forms as well.... So be it.
While there is no need to be even well versed in one, I think the bigger problem is, more are not versed in even the basics of one. Add to that, more than not, are not in even reasonable shape to sustain even a brief fight, or even break and run off, if need be.

This whole thing is about a package, not just a specific part.

Quote:
Even trained fighters can't avoid the fact that sometimes results of a fight are beyond their control.
Even Musashi knew Murphy. I suppose its only those who have tried, that have met him. Those who lack the experience, just havent met him yet. Hopefully, hes in a decent mood when they do.

Quote:
I stand behind the idea that the best way to win a gun (any) fight is to not be there when it happens.
No doubt.

Quote:
The second best way is the have the biggest tool to use in the fight. I choose a gun.
Me too, if its doable in the moment.

Having the skills and will to use it (and other things), are a BIG help as well.
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