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Old February 7, 2015, 09:17 PM   #26
2damnold4this
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Here is a recent example. We discussed this already. The old lady stood her ground, firing. She was shot at by both robbers and was not hit by either one.

Her coworkers moved when they were shot at and they weren't hit. I'm not sure if the robber was moving when she hit him.
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Old February 8, 2015, 08:51 AM   #27
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Her coworkers moved when they were shot at and they weren't hit.
Well, they did drop to the floor where they were unable to reach their pocketed guns and as seen in the video, one curls into a ball. He is shot at on the floor, on the X in his ball, flinching, and doesn't get hit like that either.
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Old February 8, 2015, 10:12 AM   #28
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...because in numerous instances of shootings, it was ...
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Here is a recent example.
Quote:
Her coworkers moved when they were shot at and they weren't hit.
Quote:
...one ... is shot at on the floor,... doesn't get hit ...
One cannot draw valid conclusions from a very small sample of data that involve varied conditions.

The only really good way to evaluate the answer that I can think of would be to equip some defenders and attackers with simunitions, and some attackers with training knives, and to run a large number of exercises under different circumstances.

People keep discussing "gunfights". I suggest that the edge would probably go to the defenders who can move quickly to cover. But I do not know, and I do know that at least some members here have availed themselves of that kind of training. I have not.

And in classic "Tueller" drills, I think it likely that defenders who decide to "stand there and shoot" may be surpassed at how many times they get run over.
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Old February 8, 2015, 11:40 AM   #29
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One Other Thing...

All other considerations aside, a "stand there and shoot" strategy is only viable in the event that the defender's initial position provides both (1) a direction of fire that does not endanger others and (2) a reasonably good backstop.

What are the chances?
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Old February 8, 2015, 12:06 PM   #30
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Well, they did drop to the floor where they were unable to reach their pocketed guns and as seen in the video, one curls into a ball. He is shot at on the floor, on the X in his ball, flinching, and doesn't get hit like that either.


The fellow moved from standing upright to a position where the counter was between him and the shooter. The shooter had to compensate for his move and that gave the lady time to get the hit she scored.


Could things have been done more proficiently by the pawn shop staff? Of course, but the bad guys could have been a lot more competent as well. I hope we, and the pawn shop staff, can learn from the incident.

From the staff, we see that trying to get a revolver out of a pocket while diving on the floor to avoid being shot looks difficult. From both the staff and the robbers, we also see that having a decent grasp of the fundamentals when a shot is possible is important. From the robbers we see that testing your firearm with your carry ammunition, knowing how to clear malfunctions and not inducing malfunctions is important. Movement seemed to be something that came naturally to the two countermen when they were being targeted by the bad guys. Movement seemed to come naturally to the bad guy as soon as he realized he was being targeted by the lady. The lady dropped to the floor after bullets came close to her. Maybe we should view movement as something we may do instinctively under stress and train ourselves around it.
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Old February 8, 2015, 03:03 PM   #31
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If you haven't been trained, it's probably best to follow your survival instinct. If your legs want to move, then move. If your legs want to stand in one spot and return fire, do that. I've seen a number of times when someone gets hurt trying to fight instinct. "Training says to stand still and fight but I want to move" kind of deal and they end up freezing because they're fighting themselves now.

And I don't understand pocket carrying. Seems like there's entirely too much stuff that has to happen exactly right to be able to draw effectively
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Old February 9, 2015, 12:34 PM   #32
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i find this to be a really interesting question.

my thoughts: moving make sense. yes, the BG will make mistakes and miss you. such mistakes are likely to be relatively random (missing to the right are as likely as missing to the left, to the top, and to the bottom). one possible exception to this randomness might be jerking trigger in anticipation of recoil (for right-hand shooters, the bullets hit low left -- which is low-right from perspective of the person being shot at). so, moving to the right (and especially kneeling while moving to the right) might be a bad idea.

however, moving left (or better yet behind cover) might work well.

another interesting "wrinkle" here is this: when one is moving, one is less likely to make hits with one's first rounds. so, again, is it better to stand still and make one's first shot count, or move the X and have much higher probability of missing this crucial shot? again, i would probably, lean towards moving the x, even in this case. one reason is that moving is probably something that would come naturally when one is fearing for one's life; another reason is that i'd rather bad guy misses me v. i hit bad guy and bad guy hits me, too because i was an easy stationary target.

hope this rambling make some sense.
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Old February 9, 2015, 01:59 PM   #33
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If I even THINK someone MIGHT approach me with intent to shoot me - I am gong to be moving. I seem to get approached by folks looking for something in certain places I pump gas. One guy wanted money for his old man who was desperate for some insulin. Another was just looking for a handout; another needed money for gas, etc, etc, etc.

I keep my loaded handgun in my pocket, in a holster and I'm pretty darn good about moving all around my Jeep, washing windows, looking at my tires, just keep moving so i don't get caught in the pocket. I like pocket carry - it allows me to keep my hand on my gun, but keep it concealed at the same time. Am I fooling anyone? Who knows - who cares. Keep on moving....
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Old February 9, 2015, 02:42 PM   #34
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Skill helps in a gun fight and knowledge of tactics has great value but what separates you from the dead or wounded guy is can you stand there while under fire and take aim and squeeze that trigger and make that shot count.

Most of us will never know for sure and most of us hope we never have to find out but all the training in the world will never prepare you for putting rounds on target while bullets wiz by your head.
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Old February 9, 2015, 05:39 PM   #35
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The only really good way to evaluate the answer that I can think of would be to equip some defenders and attackers with simunitions, and some attackers with training knives, and to run a large number of exercises under different circumstances.
Well yes and no. As I can tell you from ful contact it DOES open your eyes, but since it is really not full contact, do or die, you do get used to being hurt some and can still game it.

Only the Gladiators knew what worked and didn't. And only those who survived for a time.

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Old February 9, 2015, 05:47 PM   #36
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Well yes and no. As I can tell you from ful contact it DOES open your eyes, but since it is really not full contact, do or die, you do get used to being hurt some and can still game it.
The idea is that if you get shot or "stabbed" before hitting the opponent (as many times as the game calls for), or if you hit a bystander, YOU LOSE.

Trying it over and over against different opponents in varying scenarios should improve the capabilities of the defender.

I say "should" because I have not actually engaged in FoF training, and at my age and in my condition, I do not intend to.
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Old February 11, 2015, 03:30 PM   #37
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Stand there and shoot or get off the X?
Most self defense training involves at least some version of getting out of the way of possible bullets headed your way.
Getting off the X.
But the statistics of gunfights suggest that a whole lot of rounds fired in anger seem to miss their target.
If that's true, are we as likely to step into the path of a bullet as to avoid one, if we attempt to move out of the way?
Can you predict where the rain drops are going to fall?

In the meantime, not being directly in front of someone's muzzle is a good place to start.

Personally, I can say that when I was attacked by a guy with a large kitchen knife, the only reason he didn't stab me is because I got away from the blade and its arc of movement.

When I was attending some Simunitions training several years ago, my assigned scenario involved a surprise "ambush" in a "restaurant", where my partner and I were seated for a meal break, and we witnessed a staged disturbance that turned out to be an "ambush".

The reason I didn't get hit by several rounds initially fired in my direction was because I threw myself out of a chair in which I was sitting, to the floor underneath the table (while also trying to clear a feeding stoppage in the Sim gun ). The wall behind where I'd been seated the moment the shooting started, and the top of the table in front of where I'd been seated, were covered with bright dye splats.

The other participants (shooters) and the student spectators were all surprised I hadn't been hit by any of the FX "bullets". More like disbelief, as they had me hold out my arms and slowly turn around while everyone looked for dye "hits". I hadn't been hit, though, or even caught any dye splash from close hits.

My "partner", who had chosen to stand up out of his chair and exchange "gunfire" with the attackers, suffered some nasty hits and minor lacerations on both of his exposed forearms. (If it matters, I made a pair of tightly spaced COM hits on one attacker, after clearing the damned stoppage upon hitting the floor, and drove the other attacker to duck and remain behind "cover" until the scenario was halted. I was rather glad I'd been practicing both clearing stoppages and moving while training as an instructor at my agency, and thanked the head instructor upon my return. )

So, in my limited experience, getting away from a real blade, and incoming Sim rounds, seemed to have been useful tactics.

I've listened to enough other cops who have been involved in shooting incidents to think that movement can be helpful ... but it can also make shooting at an attacker more difficult, especially if the attacker is also moving.

I remember reading how some large state agency once had a review of several year's worth of shooting incidents. In that review, they reportedly found that in just under 65% of the incidents, both the suspects and their officers had been moving while shooting was occurring.

Now, we can probably consider the decision (reaction) of moving to be a tactic. Conscious and successful application of tactics is probably always going to be dependent, at least to some degree, by the situation and circumstances.

Blind, panicked or unthinking movement - or luck - probably isn't the best of tactics upon which to rely. Training, combined with some successful experience, and not panicking under stress, are arguably better options than randomly running around in circles and desperately hoping to avoid being punched, kicked, bludgeoned, stabbed or shot.

It's been said that (proper) training can help "inoculate" someone against some of the adverse effects of stress. Well, successful experience in having functioned under previous stressful situations probably helps with that, too. (This is where LE, active military and other armed professionals can often have an advantage over the average private citizen who isn't exposed to such incidents as a normal consequence of their daily activities.)

One of the tricks with getting "training", however, is to find some which is appropriate to an individual's particular needs and existing skillset, and which takes their physical condition (and any special needs) into consideration. Getting injured during training is never helpful, and is counter-productive. Suffering injuries during training can adversely affect being able to remain healthy, working and enjoying the normal pursuits and activities of everyday life.

I've known my fair share of aging LE firearms instructors who recognized their diminishing physical capabilities (due to disease, injuries, etc), and how their physical conditions prevented them from doing the same sort of physically demanding training & practice they'd done when they were younger. They focused on what they could do to keep their minds and foundations skillsets sharp. Sometimes this meant evolving their choice of guns/calibers they selected for retirement CCW, too.
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Old March 17, 2015, 04:24 PM   #38
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what Fastbolt said

Ya - just what Fast Bolt said-- I try to think in simple terms in complex evolving situations. In this case to move or not move. The object is to reduce your own target profile which can be as simple as stepping one leg back and turning side ways. You don't have to move much to create a higher chance of a miss on yourself. Think of a grandfather clock gong. Which would be harder to hit a stationary clock gong, or one that is moving just a couple of inches left, then right. And while I am tracking the clock gong, the clock gong has time to size me up and take appropriate action. When we move we accomplish two things. We create less frontal target area and we buy ourselves time to evaluate,respond or escape. The more time I have to live the better I like it. While I am moving I might see that the other person is a security guard, not a BG.

These are great discussions, not because answers are found, but because thought is provoked ahead of time.
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Old March 19, 2015, 04:31 PM   #39
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I really like what fastbolt wrote. Very good perspective.

As someone else has said, the object of a self defense situation is to come out uninjured... i.e. not shot, not stabbed, not beaten, not stomped. If I shoot and miss because I am running and my attacker is running in the opposite direction, and that ends the situation, that is not a failure, that is a success.

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I've known my fair share of aging LE firearms instructors who recognized their diminishing physical capabilities (due to disease, injuries, etc), and how their physical conditions prevented them from doing the same sort of physically demanding training & practice they'd done when they were younger. They focused on what they could do to keep their minds and foundations skillsets sharp. Sometimes this meant evolving their choice of guns/calibers they selected for retirement CCW, too
Very true. Recently I have been sought out by people with limited or no firearms experience for advice on self protection, buying a home defense gun, or how to get started toward CCW. I have found it is crucial to consider what this person will be physically capable of doing. Advising an tall athletic young man with big hands is very different than a 72 year old woman with some arthritis in her shoulders.

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Old March 19, 2015, 05:19 PM   #40
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Thanks.

Bear in mind that my perspective is based upon my training and experiences as a LE firearms instructor. (And, it's personal perspectives and opinions, not something that specifically represents the institutional opinions and specific policies of my former agency on any particular issue.)

In other words, it's more a case of looking past the equipment considerations that are popular among private citizen gun forums & owners, and focusing on developing the mindset, skillset and overall knowledge of the cops I help train.

Over the years, the significant number of these folks haven't been what you might consider to be firearms enthusiasts.

However, their lives are nonetheless often on the line and at great risk, so the skills and tactics being taught have to be kept relevant, simple, practice, effective and as easy to remember (especially under stress) as is possible.

It's often not a specific "equipment" (gun) problem, so much as it is a training, knowledge and tactics solution to a situation that's rapidly unfolding in a dynamic, chaotic and evolving manner.

Then, there's always the inevitable restrictions of limited training time and money available to provide that training.

Instead of an 8-16hr class, we may only be able to get a 4hr block authorized. Instead of a 16-24hr class, maybe we'll get 8hrs. When you're lucky enough to get a 24hr class authorized, maybe you're trying to fit a 40+ hour amount of training and practice into it.

Things like that. It never really ends. Factor in the required 10min break out of every hour, and the ever-present requirement to fill out admin paperwork at whatever level(s) of gov bureaucracy may be involved, and those hours can get reduced more than you might think, and in a hurry.

I haven't done much training of private citizens since I retired, not in a classroom setting, at any rate. Some individual stuff now and then. I've been reluctant to get involved in the private training business field, although as fluid as it's become in recent years, I won't automatically rule out changing my mind. Maybe. The whole CCW landscape is apparently on the verge of evolving here in CA, and the opportunities for private vendors providing services for agencies, for training licensees wanting CCW's (and renewing them every 2, 3 or 4 years, depending on the category of licensee) has been incrementally expanding.
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Old March 19, 2015, 05:56 PM   #41
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It's my understanding that fire and maneuver has been standard infantry doctrine since trench warfare was abandoned after WWI. I have no military experience, but isn't it true that F&M is implemented with at least two units -- one moving while the other provides suppressive fire from, ideally, cover? A lone civilian with a CPL can't replicate such tactics. For most folks, shooting while moving seems like a good way to deplete one's ammo supply when it's most needed. The FBI reports that 70-80% of shots fired by LEOs in a gunfight miss.

For me the issue is moot, because I'm gimpy and my running days are well behind me. Unless cover is extremely close, I have no choice but to stand my ground.
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Old March 19, 2015, 06:53 PM   #42
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Posted by Limnophile:
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A lone civilian with a CPL can't replicate such [(infantry)] tactics.
The objectives of infantry are to defeat an enemy. The objectives of a civilian engaging in self defense are to avoid being injured. The tactics will differ accordingly.

Quote:
For most folks, shooting while moving seems like a good way to deplete one's ammo supply when it's most needed.
It may also be a good way to avoid being shot, slashed, or stabbed.

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The FBI reports that 70-80% of shots fired by LEOs in a gunfight miss.
Interesting, and probably close to the truth, but rather irrelevant, don't you think?

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Unless cover is extremely close, I have no choice but to stand my ground.
Could you perhaps not get just a little farther from a man with a blade before you can stop him?
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Old March 19, 2015, 07:01 PM   #43
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The FBI reports that 70-80% of shots fired by LEOs in a gunfight miss.
Interesting, and probably close to the truth, but rather irrelevant, don't you think?
No, not at all.
The original question was about the risk of moving into the path of one of those misses.
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Old March 19, 2015, 10:28 PM   #44
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The original question was about the risk of moving into the path of one of those misses.
Think abut it and perform sone time and distance calculations.

Would you really expect to move into the path of the bullet after the shooter has unsuccessfully attempted to fire at your starting position?

You may be able to move out of harms way from him as he charges, but his bullets will travel much more quickly.
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Old March 19, 2015, 10:59 PM   #45
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You may be able to move out of harms way from him as he charges, but his bullets will travel much more quickly.
While a bit of an extreme example, the North Hollywood bank robbery shootout revealed some interesting problems. The robbers spent a goodly amount of time walking back and forth out in the open, and firing. Seems like it would be easy to aim and hit one of them. While the robbers were hit about 10% of the time, their body armor protected them fairly well.

Why were the hit amounts so low? No doubt part of the reason is that they were able to move out of the way of some of the bullets being fired at them. Except for early in the fight, most of the cops were about 75 yards distant from the robbers and were mostly firing pistols and shotguns early one (the AR15s came late in the fight). A variety of pistol rounds were fired at the bad guys and for sake of simplicity, we can say that the bullets were 1200 fps. At 75 yards, the bullet had a flight time of 0.2 seconds. Assuming the bad guys were moving at just a slow 2 mph back and forth, then the bad buy would have moved a full 7" while the bullet was in flight which means the bad guy could have moved out of the way of the bullet. At 3 mph, the bad guy would have moved 10.5" during the flight time. So unless the cops were leading their targets with accurate shots, there is a good chance the shots missed while the suspects were in motion, at least when the motion was perpendicular to the direction of fire.

If somebody was shooting a 230 gr. .45 at 950 fps, then the flight time was a full .25 seconds. So that much more time to walk out from accurate shots that were not leading, or that much more possibility to walk into inaccurate shots.
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Old March 20, 2015, 03:08 AM   #46
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The objectives of infantry are to defeat an enemy. The objectives of a civilian engaging in self defense are to avoid being injured. The tactics will differ accordingly.
Depends. If a bad guy declares war on me by committing or threatening to commit an act of war against me, others, or my property my objective is to win the battle by stopping him. If the goal were to avoid being injured there would be no need to carry; rather, we would just need to be prepared by wearing running shoes at all times.

Quote:
It may also be a good way to avoid being shot, slashed, or stabbed.
Frittering away ammo might result in a psychological stop, which counts as a win, but winners plan for worse case scenarios, and those require hitting the target in the vitals to cause rapid incapacitation.

Quote:
Interesting, and probably close to the truth, but rather irrelevant, don't you think?
Missed shots cannot be counted on to produce a stop. A miss rate of about 75% is highly relevant in planning one's gear purchases and tactics. For example, ways gear can mitigate the known miss rate include:
  • Increase firepower (volume of fire potential) by carrying a high-capacity pistol;
  • Increase firepower by carrying an additional spare magazine;
  • Carry a caliber that is not hampered unnecessarily by recoil to increase accuracy and firepower.
In terms of tactics, I see two choices -- dazzle the bad guy with firepower (actual volume of fire), or take time to put rounds accurately on target. Of course, there is an infinite number of positions in between these two extremes.

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Could you perhaps not get just a little farther from a man with a blade before you can stop him?
Perhaps, but I must honestly admit that's not something I can rely on. Who knows?: in a stressful situation an adrenalin rush might make me oblivious to the chronic foot pain from a shattered heel that didn't heal all that well, but I don't set land speed records these days. In addition to pain, whenever I place my weight on my bum foot I am at risk of stumbling, as the tiny muscles in that foot are weak.
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Old March 20, 2015, 08:00 AM   #47
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Posted by Limnophile:
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If a bad guy declares war on me by committing or threatening to commit an act of war against me, others, or my property my objective is to win the battle by stopping him.
Well, okay, if and only if "winning by stopping" is immediately necessary as a last resort and includes dissuasion, evasion, and deescalation.

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If the goal were to avoid being injured there would be no need to carry; rather, we would just need to be prepared by wearing running shoes at all times.
If retreat is safely possible, even if it not a duty, you will find it your best tactic.

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Missed shots cannot be counted on to produce a stop. A miss rate of about 75% is highly relevant in planning one's gear purchases and tactics. For example, ways gear can mitigate the known miss rate include:
Increase firepower (volume of fire potential) by carrying a high-capacity pistol;
Increase firepower by carrying an additional spare magazine;
Carry a caliber that is not hampered unnecessarily by recoil to increase accuracy and firepower.
I agree.

Quote:
In terms of tactics, I see two choices -- dazzle the bad guy with firepower (actual volume of fire), or take time to put rounds accurately on target. Of course, there is an infinite number of positions in between these two extremes.
I see no benefit reason whatsoever in "dazzling with firepower" if the rounds do not hit the target.

You can only "take the time" if you have the time, and time will likely be a very scarce commodity.

Quote:
Perhaps, but I must honestly admit that [(getting just a little farther from a man with a blade before you can stop him)] 's not something I can rely on.
I think we all need to realize that if we are attacked suddenly attacked without warning, there is really nothing upon which we will be able to reliably rely--drawing speed, shooting speed, hitting vital parts of the body, so clued "stopping power" .....

If you watch a few training scenarios in which an attacker starts moving without warning at, say five meters per second, and the defender has to draw, present, and start firing at the moving attacker and somehow stop him before being overcome, you will likely conclude that the defender often has little hope of defending against a contact weapon timely without moving.

If he cannot move laterally, he may have no other choice but to drop to the ground, out of the way.

I cannot move quickly. I carry a walking stick, which can help address knee issues, and which can help keep an attacker at bay.
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Old March 20, 2015, 08:21 AM   #48
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you don't have to take a step to get off the X

Measure how wide your chest is. Now assuming some BG is a good shot and aiming at center mass see how far you can move yourself left or right, or just rotate your shoulders, one to the front and the other to the back. I will wager that you could move at least half the width of your chest without moving your feet. If you can, you have gotten off the X. Not as good as running a mile away, BUT you are not a stone cold stationary target. In hand to hand you do not have to move much to avoid a punch. Getting off the X is much the same. A little upper body movement is better than none. Now if you think of getting into a solid firing position and combine that with shuttle movement you get off the X and are no longer a victim, but a fighter.

Even great fighters loose though so your best defense is situational awareness. If it feels hinky , get your a__ out of there.

You can still be EASLY very dead with your CCW and all your thoughts and training. off the soap box now-
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Old March 20, 2015, 05:56 PM   #49
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Well, okay, if and only if "winning by stopping" is immediately necessary as a last resort and includes dissuasion, evasion, and deescalation.
Naturally. Unholstering one's sidearm as a first resort in any confrontation that starts out nonviolently is a good way to end up surrendering one's property and liberty to one's attorney and the authorities, respectively. I'm not going to unholster my pistol in public view unless I feel legally empowered to shoot in defense of myself, of another, or of my property; in other words, not until it is cleary past time trying to win friends and influence people with my good looks and charming personality.

Quote:
If retreat is safely possible, even if it not a duty, you will find it your best tactic.
Running was never my forte even before I shattered my heel. But, I believe your advice, while generally sound, has exceptions. For example, if retreating means surrendering my property that is under threat, retreat could be unwise -- eg, consider a situation where someone is threatening to steal your vehicle in the middle of Death Valley, where without the vehicle or supplies inside you are almost certain to perish. Another example -- someone else's life or health is being threatened. You may have an avenue of retreat to safety, but doing so abandons a fellow human to the fate of whatever the bad guy has in store for him. When I took a handgun class three years ago after applying for my CPL, we were told the appropriate action in such a scenario is to retreat, that doing otherwise would expose us to legal liability. I was the only one in the class of about 20 who objected, and I did so on the grounds of morality. I have since read my state's relevant laws and now know that I am legally empowered to defend another with lethal force should that person be in imminent jeopardy of serious harm.

[quote]I see no benefit reason whatsoever in "dazzling with firepower" if the rounds do not hit the target.

You can only "take the time" if you have the time, and time will likely be a very scarce commodity.[quote]

Dazzling with firepower could produce a psychological stop, or buy you some time to maneuver more safely if the firepower display forces your foe to seek cover. The US military elevated the tactic of dazzlement with firepower to a strategy in the Vietnam War, where the number of bullets expended per enemy killed was outrageous. I remember reading that the Australian Army was trained to aim and fire judiciously. They went on patrols with a much smaller ammo loadout than their American counterparts yet were quite successful in racking up kills.

But, hits that result in wound channels that intersect highly vascularized vital tissues are far more dependable in producing stops, so I try to bias my tactical training in this direction (while opting so far for high capacity pistols).

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I think we all need to realize that if we are attacked suddenly attacked without warning, there is really nothing upon which we will be able to reliably rely--drawing speed, shooting speed, hitting vital parts of the body, so clued "stopping power" .....

If you watch a few training scenarios in which an attacker starts moving without warning at, say five meters per second, and the defender has to draw, present, and start firing at the moving attacker and somehow stop him before being overcome, you will likely conclude that the defender often has little hope of defending against a contact weapon timely without moving.

If he cannot move laterally, he may have no other choice but to drop to the ground, out of the way.

I cannot move quickly. I carry a walking stick, which can help address knee issues, and which can help keep an attacker at bay.
A walking stick can be a great self-defense weapon. I rejoiced when a graduated from crutches to a cane, and my hickory can can be a useful defensive tool, too. I find those self-defense umbrellas interesting, as in western WA carrying one anytime from November through March, our monsoon season, would be unobtrusive.

The urban knockout game shows how vulnerable we are to a viscious sneak attack. I don't know of an effective way to defend against such an attack, except to 1) travel only in a group, or 2) avoid areas in which the game is or has been played.
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Old March 21, 2015, 08:10 AM   #50
OldMarksman
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Posted by Limnophile:
Quote:
Dazzling with firepower could produce a psychological stop, or buy you some time to maneuver more safely if the firepower display forces your foe to seek cover.
Maybe.

A charging attacker may cover five meters in the time it takes to fire four shots. I would not count on dissuading him with gunfire during that part of the incident.

Consider also that in a self-defense encounter, one is not on a battlefield. Nor is one on a shooting range, where bystanders are behind the line and where there is a good backstop. I fact, you may have to move to get a clear shot and to get in line with a backstop.

Quote:
The US military elevated the tactic of dazzlement with firepower to a strategy in the Vietnam War, where the number of bullets expended per enemy killed was outrageous.
One more time, there is a significant difference between the objectives of self defense and those of infantry engagements.

Quote:
The urban knockout game shows how vulnerable we are to a viscious sneak attack. I don't know of an effective way to defend against such an attack, except to 1) travel only in a group, or 2) avoid areas in which the game is or has been played.
They savages go everywhere, and they have no problem selecting a victim from a crowd.

Try paying attention all the time, and if you see someone with a cell phone who seems to be noticing you, change your speed and direction instantly.
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