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Old December 11, 2014, 01:28 PM   #51
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You think they probably didn't get a bad vibe except in hindsight? That could be.
No, I think people get bad vibes from others all the time, but they don't bother acting upon them, but will claim, after the fact, some a priori insight (I had a bad vibe about...) after something goes wrong. They never tell you about the bad vibes they had that came to nothing and they don't tell you why they failed to act when they got a bad vibe in the situation that went wrong.

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Some of the liquor stores around here, even in the good neighborhoods, have similar signs.
Yeah, we know how good signs stop crimes, huh? Everyone knows a criminal can't do a robbery without his hoodie up and if the sign says you can't wear a hoodie, he ain't going in the store...and nothing will stop him from raising it once he is inside.
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Old December 11, 2014, 02:34 PM   #52
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ya don't buzz him in if its up -- the camera catches him with it down.

inside or out --

Just a tool - the smart crook will know he is on camera.
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Old December 11, 2014, 04:03 PM   #53
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ya don't buzz him in if its up
Employees in most small businesses can't drop everything they are doing to let everyone in and out
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Old December 11, 2014, 10:07 PM   #54
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Double Naught, you are usually pretty sensible but I remember this differently.

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Bernard Goetz took out 5 muggers with a six shooter, and shot one of them twice just because he had a round left lover, so I guess it is enough if they find their mark.

Very poor example, and it was 4, not 5. They never actually physically attacked him and they were not armed.

I am pretty sure that 2 or 3 or maybe all of the wannabe toughs and criminal-history thugs whom Bernie Goetz shot had not just screwdrivers, but ones that had been sharpened.

The legal standard "reasonable person" is quite capable of "apprehending threat of imminent death or serious bodily injury" without waiting for a physical assault to begin. Legally, the "assault" begins when the weapon is seen and that is combined with some sign of willingness on the part of the perpetrator to use it.

From what I could read back when it was freshly in the sometimes honestly reported news, the Goetz shooting was clean until the last shot.

Interesting how the crowds who don't care about FACTS and physical evidence than cannot be faked chanted about charging Goetz with "genocide" when not one of the attempted robbery perpetrators died.

Back on topic: Rule #1 of a gunfight was followed. What's Rule #2? Be able to DEPLOY your gun, and practice to be smooth and accurate on presentation?

To those who want a half-dozen or more backup guns scattered throughout the work area: How do you secure them from the gang that has cased your joint and noted their locations? Some people think about this stuff. The one time I did a ride-along with the local PD, I was a little disappointed that my LEO never bothered to instruct me to be his eyes and ears, nor did he arrange for any signal for suspicion or for outright danger. But every time we entered a residence I placed myself between the occupants and the kitchen, and I think you might figure out why.
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Old December 11, 2014, 11:51 PM   #55
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Well Grump, you are partially correct. They were armed but apparently never threatened Goetz with the screw drivers and at the time only made verbal demands for money. They did not physically attack him. Goetz did not know they had the screwdrivers.

So the notion that Goetz stopped these guys with his revolver isn't actually a great testament to stopping any sort of battle. These were not determined attackers. In fact, they had not yet attacked, only threatened.

Sort of like in the pawn shop with the male employees. They had guns in their pockets, but the guns never came into play, nor did the screwdrivers.
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Old December 12, 2014, 12:47 AM   #56
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The video just reminded us how stupid most criminals are. I wasn't too impressed by the shop keeps except for the lady. They should've been aware and ready.
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Old December 12, 2014, 02:23 AM   #57
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3 people start shooting in an enclosed space with 5 people...only one gets shot...big lesson there.
I know performance degrades dramatically under stress, but try to only take shots where you will hit (unless you are intentionally using suppressive fire). In other words, practice enough to know your limits under stress.

For the two guys, not getting shot is a pretty good outcome!
For the lady, pretty good response. Not optimal performance, but she fended off an attack and was not seriously injured. Overall, a success.

I'll put in a plug for medical training and on-hand supplies. If you carry a gun, why aren't you also carrying a small trauma kit?
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Old December 12, 2014, 07:25 AM   #58
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And read about Lance Thomas (google him) and his three gunfights at his jewelry store. Lots of lessons there. Deaf
Deaf Smith. Had it right, all the lessons are in the escalation that took place with Lance and his Watch shop. Finally ending up with a good holster, and high capacity 9mm, a Sig?

We have a shooting sport, IDPA, that I participate in, look that up.

The Pistol I use, I carry, a Glock 19 with TruGlo night sights. The only malfunctions I have ever had, faulty factory ammunition. I now drop every round in a spare barrel, to check they drop in, fall out.

So month in, month out, around 100+ rounds, press trigger, bang! These shots, dictated by the group that set the stages up, encompass all kind of shooting positions, good fun as well.

Now this is not gunfighting training, but you draw from a holster, concealed, shoot free style, or mandated strong hand, and weak hand.

And I can not remember having my pistol failing to fire, at all.

If any lessons have been learned by the 3 employees in the Pawnshop it is this, carry better pistols, on belt.

Both men could carry Glock 19s, with a Spare G17 magazine for malfunction purposes, the brave Grandma, the same! My Wife at 5'3" and 125 lbs, has no problem shooting a Glock 19.

All three could wear a Store Vest, name of the Company embroidered on them. Walk in or out of the store, no worries. At the least they need some professional instruction, plus regular range visits.

They had a wake up call, WAKE UP!
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Old December 12, 2014, 07:51 AM   #59
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The tactics of the pawn shop, just like any good business, should be:

- Cameras and lots of them

- Barriers- What barrier exists between the employees and the customers?

- Lights- If the store operates at night, there should be plenty of lights outside and inside.

- "Buzz"- If the store is a small operation its best to "buzz" people in as instead of just letting them wonder in. If anyone is wearing a mask or acting suspicious than dont let them in. Obviously these pawn shop owners knew a threat existed as they were all armed.

- Open- Carry or a concealed holster- The Kojak carry didnt seem to work for them.

- Drill and training- If they know they are at risk of a hold-up than weekly or monthly hold-up drills. Also weekly or monthly trips to the firing range.

- Panic button- A central alarm system which includes a panic button to alert police behind the counter.

As for the firearms they carry, I would say they should carry the firearms which they are most comfortable working with from day to day. I believe the revolvers they had were just fine, but its their deployment method that went wrong.

This, of course, is just my personal opinion.
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Old December 12, 2014, 07:52 AM   #60
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The legal standard "reasonable person" is quite capable of "apprehending threat of imminent death or serious bodily injury" without waiting for a physical assault to begin. Legally, the "assault" begins when the weapon is seen and that is combined with some sign of willingness on the part of the perpetrator to use it.

From what I could read back when it was freshly in the sometimes honestly reported news, the Goetz shooting was clean until the last shot.
I stand corrected. He took out 4 guys with a 5 shooter if that makes a difference. The attackers were armed with sharpened screwdrivers. They did not immediately pull weapons, but witnesses would argue that the pending attck was well under way. The shooting was ruled as JUSTIFIED, and Goetz did 8 months time for having an unlicensed handgun in NY.

One thing that was impressed upon us in my CCW class was that no one can give you advance permission to shoot someone, regardless of the circumstances. You have to get the legal permission after the fact, and your job is to survive to make it to the court hearing. Juries will see the same set of facts differently.

I agree with your point here, that too much emphasis is put on whether an attacker is armed, and what he is armed with. In most states, you are not obligated to engage an attacker in a "fair fight". The "what a reasonable person would believe" standard is pretty common. "He lunged at me" is a common defense for shooting someone unarmed. The bigger and more scary he is, the easier to convince a jury that your fears were reasonable.
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Old December 12, 2014, 08:26 AM   #61
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Nobody was saying that the shooting wasn't clean. The point is that the "attack" was just verbal and posturing at the point that Goetz started shooting. It wasn't much of an attack. Just because some of the "attackers" had weapons really doesn't come into play just like two of the people in the pawn shop had guns that didn't come into play.

If you are going to take weapons not coming into play into consideration, then obviously this gun battle was between two armed robbers and THREE armed pawnbrokers, not that the two male pawnbrokers ever showed, deployed, or used their revolvers in the battle. However, that ups the stakes to 15 rounds and 3 revolvers.

So the bad guys were outgunned during the entire fight, only they never knew it and still kept firing even after the old lady was out of ammo and down after being struck.
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Old December 12, 2014, 09:19 AM   #62
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Excellent!

Grandma with a j-frame blisters a pair of thugs.

Probably spoiled their holidays, too.

Good shooting!
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Old December 12, 2014, 10:09 AM   #63
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So the bad guys were outgunned during the entire fight, only they never knew it and still kept firing even after the old lady was out of ammo and down after being struck.
Great points so far. I disagree that the bad guys were outgunned for reasons of technicality. A gun not introduced when needed is not a gun...fired or not. Just a totally useless piece of metal mixed with some gun powder, a primer and likely some lead and plastic or wood (depending on gun models of course). Like an ambulance showing up to a heart attack victim without a defibrillator the paramedic is likely useless without it.
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Old December 12, 2014, 06:23 PM   #64
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She did great period. I used to live in that area and most of the pawn shop business is some guy pawning his wedding ring for the week and getting it back come payday. Small time stuff and good people.

She did better that Saturday morning than most all of us could have.
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Old December 13, 2014, 12:38 AM   #65
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I've worked at several gun shops... They call had a door button. I can't even begin to remember the amount of people we didn't let in cause of the way they carried themselves. Even kicked a ton out after off remarks.

We got hit two times too.

Ol' girl did good.
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Old December 13, 2014, 09:12 AM   #66
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Great points so far. I disagree that the bad guys were outgunned for reasons of technicality. A gun not introduced when needed is not a gun...fired or not. Just a totally useless piece of metal mixed with some gun powder, a primer and likely some lead and plastic or wood (depending on gun models of course).
That was sort of my point, Wreck-n-Crew. A big deal was being made about how Goetz took out 4 armed attackers, only the screwdriver weapons were not used to threaten Goetz or even known about by Goetz. So they were really a non-issue. If you give that sort of credit to Goetz for going against armed attackers, then you have to do the same with the pawn shop...and it just seems a bit silly.
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Old December 13, 2014, 02:30 PM   #67
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I'd have to say the store employees were incredibly lucky to run into such bumbling robbers; if that semi had worked, there would be some people dead or badly wounded. While I give kudos to the woman for fighting back and actually hitting one of the thugs while one-handing that snubbie, if I worked in a pawnshop, especially one where guns were sold, if it was legal I'd be belt-carrying something a bit more substantial -- and I'd make sure I was trained to use it. Nobody knows what they'll do until they are actually under fire, but lying on the floor is probably a bad idea ... I've never been shot at, and I might be lying on the floor next to those clerks, but there are better ways to defend your store ... also agree that the snubbie is not the solution to this situation; five rounds for two armed shooters doesn't go very far.

At the LGS I frequent, there are always at least two counter workers, both belt-carrying 15+ semis ... I love watching how they work; they both pay attention when the front door opens and if you come in with your hood up or your hands in your pockets, they are both on guard until the hood comes down and the hands come out ... as far as I know, they have never been robbed.
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Old December 13, 2014, 05:33 PM   #68
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If I were them I would have a button that would lock the door,in case of a shoot out,that way I could insure that I could kill them,an make it harder for perpss to getaway even if I was shot.
6 guns in pockets or pants is a no no
Bad train of thought in civilian life. No Bueno. With cyber police being all around. This post could and will be used against you in the court of law. I suggest a nice "delete" and a proper training in self defense.
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Old December 13, 2014, 11:11 PM   #69
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Lets think abou this:
She gets a better hit on the guy and he does down.
What are the chances the other guy flees?
Significantly lower.
A great deal more legal trouble.
She got a PERFECT hit in this situation.

A book of collectible coins isn't light. It probably hit her pretty hard. She didn't appear to be on balance getting behind that cover.

The two guys were par for the course as were the robbers.
She did extremely well.
Both the men probably owe her their life.
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Old December 14, 2014, 12:02 AM   #70
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A perfect hit???

The guy shot at her multiple times after being shot by her - hardly a perfect hit.
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Old December 14, 2014, 11:15 AM   #71
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That was sort of my point, Wreck-n-Crew. A big deal was being made about how Goetz took out 4 armed attackers, only the screwdriver weapons were not used to threaten Goetz or even known about by Goetz. So they were really a non-issue. If you give that sort of credit to Goetz for going against armed attackers, then you have to do the same with the pawn shop...and it just seems a bit silly.
Ditto...it is silly!
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Old December 14, 2014, 06:58 PM   #72
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The Jewelry Store my Sons Company had, with me as the first Security Officer (Mad rush, must have armed person tonight, command at 9am to me) I was not working regularly.

The front entrance was a man trap. Two doors, only one could be open at a time, plus metal detector, inside. I had a remote, a couple of the senior staff did as well.

When the alarm chirped, I would walk over, and ask "Are you carrying a weapon?" LEO, come in after verifying ID. FCCW License, I would let them in, others after me, would say "Please leave it in your car"

While you spoke to the customer, they were in the locked man trap, but they could always leave, street door not secured.

A couple of Cops said "I can leave it in the car if you like?"

No Sir, you are my unpaid back up.
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Old December 30, 2014, 10:23 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Brit View Post
The Jewelry Store my Sons Company had, with me as the first Security Officer (Mad rush, must have armed person tonight, command at 9am to me) I was not working regularly.

The front entrance was a man trap. Two doors, only one could be open at a time, plus metal detector, inside. I had a remote, a couple of the senior staff did as well.

When the alarm chirped, I would walk over, and ask "Are you carrying a weapon?" LEO, come in after verifying ID. FCCW License, I would let them in, others after me, would say "Please leave it in your car"

While you spoke to the customer, they were in the locked man trap, but they could always leave, street door not secured.

A couple of Cops said "I can leave it in the car if you like?"

No Sir, you are my unpaid back up.
This would be my setup including having BP windows. However, a pawnshop would have many false positives. Rather be a hassle than dead though.

If your man trap only allowed 1 open door the street door could not always be unlocked. Otherwise unarmed guy could be first and second guy could rush in after inner door was opened.
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Old January 1, 2015, 01:29 PM   #74
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Power5.

Maybe I was not clear enough, the remote that allowed the people in the man trap access to the store, immediately locked the street door!

Till I pressed the remote, the in trap individuals could leave. But the instant I pressed the remote, the street door was secured, then the inner door opened.

The funniest part of the whole episode, that I have posted somewhere, was the first night.

The reason for this rush, hence me getting the first shift, I had no regular site, I was the Dad, just got the odd job, some one not turning up, had to leave for an emergency reason, that kind of thing.

This was a kind of emergency, the top Lady sales person in the company, was in this branch.
"If no armed security here tomorrow, I am not coming in to work" She stated.

A couple of things, both my Son and I had shot gun waivers, I wrote the letter to the State. "Purpose, hi risk patrol" we were doing two man plain clothes escort of Jewelry vehicles.

Second the concern of this attractive young Lady, there was a Hood, just behind the rear parking area, behind a high concrete wall. But you could drive out, of course.

Closing time, 8PM, then for as long as it took, contents of display cases, into plastic boxes, onto carts, on wheels, which fitted into a large vault.

Then the sales staff, 4, left, manager exited on his own, setting alarm as he left. To meet a half dozen, sometimes more, denizens of the Hood, sitting on their cars, making dirty comments to the Lady's. Getting worse, each night.

I called my troops together for a briefing! "You 4 leave first, I leave at the same time, in front, when I reach the cars, I will wave you out"

"Then the Manager, he has set the alarm, I will wave him out also"

"You guys will have entered your Cars, locked doors, started engines, side lights on only" "When the Manager has entered his car, engine/seat belt on, and leaves first, you all leave in line, closest to Managers car, first."

The first exit point, a dead little street, then traffic light exit to main road. So they would all 5 vehicles leave parking lot together.

My 12 Gage, was in the Managers Office, behind the door, in a case.

Mossberg 500 Ex Sheriffs gun, I had put SECURITY on the side of the stock, white 1" letters. Five shells, double ought buck, breach empty.

Sales staff ready, me out first, shotgun alongside right leg, black pants, black shotgun.

Step outside, swing gun across chest, look at the wee crowd, pump, walk across parking lot, high ready. Stop at the end, wave my troops out!

The instance the lot had emptied of all the employees, the chirp of tires pulling away, was all you heard, they never came back.

Never let it be said, Security is boring, not always!
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Old January 1, 2015, 08:26 PM   #75
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The woman in the pawn shop was probably better off with the revolver. From the limited footage, her limp wristed skills might have got her a jammed semi auto.
In any event, good for her!
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