The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old September 18, 2014, 12:10 PM   #1
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,794
All things being equal, which is more effective...

... at concealment?

An IWB holster or an ankle holster?

I mean if wearing casual trousers, and an untucked shirt/top?

I ask this as one of my main gripes with carrying IWB is the discomfort or being seated or driving and I don't want to keep putting the holster on and taking it off.

Also it seems likely that someone is less likely to notice any stranger contours at ankle level than at the waist.

I know the cost in terms of access with an ankle rig.

So which is a better concealment choice for the likes of a snub .38?
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Karma. Another word for revolver: because what goes around, comes around!

Last edited by Pond, James Pond; September 18, 2014 at 12:38 PM.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old September 18, 2014, 01:04 PM   #2
Sevens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 11,427
I would think the ankle holster is far, far, -FAR- more concealable for exactly the reason you stated... people aren't looking there for a weapon unless you're being held and and frisked.

That would never make me wish to carry in that manner, but I do believe it would offer more concealment.
__________________
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
Sevens is offline  
Old September 18, 2014, 01:36 PM   #3
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,794
Yeah...

I thought I'd found my golden fleece in appendix carry, but being seated in a car or at a desk is not very comfortable. Tying shoe laces feels like I'm risking self-emasculation!!
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Karma. Another word for revolver: because what goes around, comes around!
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old September 18, 2014, 02:46 PM   #4
Sevens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 11,427
One of those cute little "sayings" that has some quality meat behind it (and thus shouldn't be quickly written off as simply a cute little saying...) is that you should dress around the gun and not the other way around.

I'd say that you need to choose which is most important for the situation -- and if ultimate concealability is the uncontested top priority, than so be it.

I much, MUCH prefer to be concealed well and to blend in. My day is perfectly executed if nobody ever, at any time in my day, suspects that I have a handgun on my person. However, it is not my top priority. If it was, I'd be exploring much smaller handguns and perhaps different places on my body to carry it.

Appendix, ankle, shoulder holster, pocket carry? None of these are in my plans, but my situation and needs are truly my own.
__________________
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
Sevens is offline  
Old September 18, 2014, 03:32 PM   #5
JN01
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2005
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 806
I always thought that an ankle holster would be very awkward to draw from, so I never seriously considered it and therefore, have no experience with one- but I wonder if, when you sit down, does your pant leg ride up and expose a big lump on your ankle?

I also have visions of the gun retaining device coming loose and the gun being flung down the street as I am walking.
JN01 is offline  
Old September 18, 2014, 03:39 PM   #6
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,794
Quote:
I also have visions of the gun retaining device coming loose and the gun being flung down the street as I am walking.
Oh, now that really would not be good.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Karma. Another word for revolver: because what goes around, comes around!
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old September 18, 2014, 04:16 PM   #7
motorhead0922
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2010
Location: Missouri
Posts: 635
Does IWB at 3:00 or 3:30 not work for you? I find that to be the best overall, sitting or standing, if my untucked shirt is not tight. Otherwise, my BG380 is always in my back pocket. Very difficult to draw while sitting though (thinking about being in a car).

You mentioned a .38. Revolvers are not the thinnest for IWB.
__________________
NRA, SAF, NRA-ILA, ACLDN, IDPA, handgunlaw.us
My AmazonSmile benefits SAF
I'd rather be carried by 6 than caged by 12.
2019: It's pronounced twenty nineteen.
motorhead0922 is offline  
Old September 18, 2014, 04:26 PM   #8
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,794
Quote:
You mentioned a .38. Revolvers are not the thinnest for IWB.
True but i don't think I'd have the confidence in my CC set-up to carry OWB in town, and having a legally imposed condition 3 requirement on carried semis means a revolver is my best choice. I could have gone 5-shot, but for a bit more circumference I think the extra shot is worthwhile.

If I could carry chambered, DA, I'd jump on an Astra A60, A70 or Sig P232 in a flash!!
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Karma. Another word for revolver: because what goes around, comes around!
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old September 18, 2014, 06:36 PM   #9
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,383
I carry a S&W 642 in a pocket holster. Sometimes, I carry a S&W 60 in an outside the waistband holster under a t-shirt. Both are comfortable but the pocket carried 642 is more concealable. Of course the OWB carried 60 is much easier to access while seated.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old September 18, 2014, 06:51 PM   #10
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,208
All things are never equal.

But in any case, an ankle holster might be more concealable; but a gun worn at the waist in an IWB holster will be quicker/easier to get to.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old September 18, 2014, 07:06 PM   #11
Nathan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 4,779
I carry a 5 shot 357 640 IWB. It is one of my easiest to carry.
Nathan is offline  
Old September 18, 2014, 09:06 PM   #12
AK103K
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Posts: 9,941
As Frank mentioned, all things are never equal, but all things do have a place.

IWB takes a little getting used to, but once you find your "sweet spot", and your body accepts it, things usually settle down, and you soon forget youre wearing it. You do have to give it a good chance though, and that may take a little while, and a good bit longer, if you dont wear the gun all the time, on a daily basis.

IWB is hands down, "the" best way to carry/conceal a full sized handgun on your belt. Because of that, I really dont see the point in bothering with the smaller guns, other than in a BUG capacity, but I know these days, people are into the smaller guns. I just usually find them harder to get a hold of quickly, and get into action.


I carry a couple of things as back ups in an ankle holster, although less and less anymore these days, in favor of my Smart Carry's. Ankle holsters can and do work well, if you are willing to find a brand that works for you, but they also have their challenges.

First, you need to find one that you can comfortably wear "all" day. The only way to really figure that out, is try them until you find one. Ive found, the "cheap" ones are a waste, and usually, literally, "a pain". Plan on spending a few bucks for a good one, and youre likely going to have to try a few. My favorite so far, is the Desantis "Leather Ankle Holster".

Ankle holsters tend to limit your choices, obviously, but you'd be surprised what you can get away with, with the right pants. The two handguns I normally use an ankle holster for, are S&W 642's, and Glock 26's. These days, I prefer the Glocks, and the J frames just come out for practice, to stay on top of them. The 26 just has a lot more pluses.

Like the IWB, you need to allow your body time to adjust to the gun/holster being there, and give it a good chance. At first, even the light guns really feel out of place, and throw you off a little, if nothing more than mentally, when you walk.

You also need to learn what to do with your legs when you sit. Youre safest bet is the "ankle cross", and with your holsterless leg over the leg with the gun. Depending on the length of your pant legs, your shoes/boots, and how low the gun is carried, you may or may not have issues with exposure, and you need to pay attention.

Getting the gun into action from an ankle holster also offers some challenges and requires some more thought and planning. Its definitely not something for a close proximity proposition. With practice, it can be quite quick to draw, but it puts you into a static draw only position. You either more, or you draw, you cant do both. Thats not a good thing.


If you feel you cant deal with a full, or larger sized handgun, I would also suggest you look into the Smart Carry holsters. Its sort of a "best of all worlds" holsters, and you really dont have to change anything about how you dress to pull off even fairly large guns. Some people, including the holsters maker, do carry full sized guns in them, but I dont find they work for me, with my lifestyle. I can do a Glock 26 without any problems though.

Concealment is very effective, its very comfortable, once you get used to it, and the draw is deceivingly quick and easy, even one handed. Sitting isnt a problem either.
AK103K is offline  
Old September 18, 2014, 10:34 PM   #13
seeker_two
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 31, 2002
Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
Posts: 2,150
Can you carry OWB in a belt pouch or fanny pack?
seeker_two is offline  
Old September 18, 2014, 11:20 PM   #14
mete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,575
I don't like the ankle holster as it takes two hands to draw. Have you thought of a cross draw .? there are a few good ones .
__________________
And Watson , bring your revolver !
mete is offline  
Old September 19, 2014, 12:50 AM   #15
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,794
Quote:
Have you thought of a cross draw .?
Not really. Don't know much about them. TBH, I just thought I'd need to stuff my existing IWB on the other side so that the butt would still stick out towards my strong side. Didn't even realise that you needed a specific Cr-Dr holster

As you can see, I still have some learning to do!!
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Karma. Another word for revolver: because what goes around, comes around!
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old September 19, 2014, 01:40 AM   #16
Jim243
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2009
Location: Just off Route 66
Posts: 5,067
None of the above, a OWB with a compact semi-auto belt slide holster with the proper semi, and a decent belt will keep the gun close to your side and provide for proper concealment and ease of draw. You just have to wear a jacket. So dress up dude you might get more girls that way.

Jim
__________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum
Jim243 is offline  
Old September 19, 2014, 04:36 AM   #17
dayman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Location: The Woods
Posts: 1,197
Personally, being nicely dressed is just as important as being armed.
My wife has finally gotten comfortable with me carrying a gun when we go out - I'm not sure that she'd ever be okay with me wearing ill-fitting clothes or a fanny pack.
Fortunately, I've never felt that CC and dressing nicely had to be mutually exclusive.

Try wearing your IWB at like 5:00 - just to the side of your spine..
As long as your shoulders are bigger than your waist, you probably have a big pocket of extra shirt there anyway that will help to conceal the gun, and it's only very slightly more difficult to get to than one at 3-3:30.
Your draw-stroke looks basically like you're going for a back-pocket wallet.
I carry a Glock 19 there, and can pretty effectively hide it under a fitted t-shirt.
I notice it's there while driving, but it's not uncomfortable.
I'd think your SW would completely disappear.
__________________
si vis pacem para bellum
dayman is offline  
Old September 19, 2014, 06:37 AM   #18
Mobuck
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 6,847
I carried a PPK sized pistol in an ankle holster for years. Never had to draw it for defense-probably a good thing. At that time I was younger, more flexible, and less likely to fall over while hopping around on one leg while making the draw. The major thing was not being "made" while packing-worked great.
Older folks or those with extra ballast don't get along as well, but there's an option for those people. It's called the "I'm having a heart attack draw sequence". If confronted and in need of accessing your pistol, you fall to the ground writhing as if having a coronary event. During this flailing and convulsing, you draw and blast your thoroughly surprised opponent.
Mobuck is offline  
Old September 19, 2014, 06:54 AM   #19
foxytwo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2010
Posts: 234
I carry a Keltec PF9 in a leather belt slide holster OWB 90% of the time with a loose shirt covering it. I also carry a Sig P250c at other times.This has never given me a problem either sitting in the car or anywhere else.
foxytwo is offline  
Old September 19, 2014, 12:58 PM   #20
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2002
Location: northern CA for a little while longer
Posts: 1,830
Quote:
All things are never equal.
Indeed.

IWB holsters can indeed be a bit annoying, depending on the user's particular anatomy and the conditions under which the IWB holstered handgun will be carried. Access & presentation from a seated position, especially while belted in a vehicle, can require some positioning, awareness and practice.

Being seated in vehicles is where an ankle holster can be pretty practical. Reaching the ankle-holstered weapon while seated can be easier, less obtrusive and faster.

Ankle holsters have their own drawback's, though.

An ankle holster is more easily exposed to the sight of others, and the elements. I've seen a lot of cops unintentionally expose their ankle-holstered guns while seated (cuff rise, leg movement which flashes the holster, etc), or even climbing steps.

Having the ankle holster so close to the ground tends to increase exposure to whatever's kicked up, puddled or blowing from ground-level.

In a physical encounter, having a weapon positioned at the far end of one of your legs might put it closer to an attacker than anticipated (during kicking, leg trapping and some ground fighting situations), but also about as far from your hand as it's possible to be on your body.

Drawing & presentation from a standing position means having to kneel, really bend over or raising your ankle to your hands (or some combination thereof), which may or may not be practical, safe or desirable in some situations.

Ankle carry can be handy for when it comes to simple portability.

TANSTAAFL.
__________________
Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer
fastbolt is offline  
Old September 19, 2014, 01:39 PM   #21
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastbolt
...Being seated in vehicles is where an ankle holster can be pretty practical. Reaching the ankle-holstered weapon while seated can be easier, less obtrusive and faster....
Perhaps for you. But I'd have a very tough time, if I could do it at all, drawing a gun from an ankle holster while behind the steering wheel of my car. On the other hand, I could quite easily draw my gun worn at my waist in an IWB holster -- even in my car.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old September 19, 2014, 02:54 PM   #22
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2002
Location: northern CA for a little while longer
Posts: 1,830
Quote:
Perhaps for you. But I'd have a very tough time, if I could do it at all, drawing a gun from an ankle holster while behind the steering wheel of my car. On the other hand, I could quite easily draw my gun worn at my waist in an IWB holster -- even in my car.
__________________
Yeah, it can certainly depend on the individual, the vehicle and the amount of room between the front of the seat, side panel, steering wheel and dash. Some folks are more easily able to reach to their ankle while seated than others, or even have clearance behind the steering wheel to lift their ankle within reach.

Taking the time to learn how to optimally access and draw a belt-holstered weapon (of any style) while seated & belted into a vehicle is something some folks may overlook. Could be very important, though.

I had a friend who ended up with his patrol car in a ditch, while initially being the primary pursuit vehicle, chasing an armed bank robbery suspect.

When the suspect saw the patrol car run off into the ditch, the suspect backed up (close pursuit), got out of his car and fired several rounds into my friend's patrol car before my friend could get his seat belt off or even draw his weapon.

None of the suspect's rounds hit my friend, but he was unable to draw his own duty weapon from his holster due to the seat belt and his holster positioning. Fortunately for him, the suspect got back in his car and fled the scent as he heard other sirens rapidly approaching (later apprehended after a pursuit into another county).

My friend actually suffered a shoulder injury due to the force he was using trying to draw his weapon as rounds were hitting his car. We later had a discussion about the importance of adjusting his gun belt holster during and after fastening a seat belt & buckle.

As a sidebar, this is a situation where a "mousegun" carried on his ankle (even if more easily accessible to him, in that situation), might not have had sufficient punch to effectively hit and stop the attacker if my friend had been forced to shoot at the attacker through his own vehicle's windshield or side window.

TANSTAAFL, right?

Nowadays that I'm no longer working either uniform or plainclothes, I don't use a belt holstered weapon nearly as often as I do a weapon which I can pocket-holster carry, and that comes with its own inherent advantages & disadvantages when being seated in (or on) a vehicle. (More TANSTAAFL. )
__________________
Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer
fastbolt is offline  
Old September 19, 2014, 09:45 PM   #23
tony pasley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2006
Location: western north carolina
Posts: 1,641
Ankle holster don't work with cowboy boots
__________________
Every day Congress is in session we lose a little bit more of our Liberty.
tony pasley is offline  
Old September 21, 2014, 04:16 PM   #24
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,568
Have you given any consideration to changing your weapon?

S&W has a slick little single stack 9MM out, called a shield, it is probably right at the same weight as your revolver, . . . carries more rounds, . . . and is a dream to carry in an IWB.

I say that as I carry an all steel Commander sized .45ACP, . . . no problems with driving, sitting, standing, . . . but it is a bit painful if I forget and lay down on it the wrong way to grab a quick nap.

I have carried a revolver, . . . but the semi-auto is so much more comfortable (and in my case, . . . comforting).

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old September 21, 2014, 04:24 PM   #25
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,794
Quote:
Have you given any consideration to changing your weapon?
I've imagined it, but not seriously.

I posted earlier in the thread that this country has a condition 3 carry requirement in the law giving revolvers a distinct advantage in that they don't need chambering.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Karma. Another word for revolver: because what goes around, comes around!
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11894 seconds with 8 queries