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Old January 7, 2011, 10:48 PM   #26
Shane Tuttle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle0711
Shooting with the sights is superior to point shooting in most cases. When I started I bought No Second Place Winner by Bill Jordan. I could hit from the hip in the center of the chest at 12'.
Then came The Modern Technique, and most subscribe to this style of shooting.
I read a few days ago that the stuff taught in the 1970s was out of date and to be avoided. Bill Jordan and at least two other lawmen could react, draw, and shoot accurately at reasonable distances in 1/20 [.020] of a second. This was done from their duty rigs.
Today it's supposedly better to bring the gun to eye level. I believe that the best times are about .75 to 1.75 of a second.
Who do you think would win that gunfight?
Your information is incomplete to answer accurately. The skillset isn't worth a bucket of dung if the proper mindset isn't in place. Given they both have the proper mindset, you then have to assess if one survives the situation what legal ramifications are going to be dealt.


I will do everything in my power to use my sights if I were to ever need to use my firearm. I'm not going to use distance to determine point shooting to be justified. There are too many variables involved to even use distance as a primary, if not only variable, to judge which method to use. Using point shooting as a primary method when sight shooting could have been the better method has me thinking I would be shredded in court. One is going to have to answer for every single shot fired. I'm going to make every one count to stop the attack immediately, not some zipper method to gain space or have a "good enough" grouping in the heat of the moment. I don't think telling the jury shooting from the hip allowed me to know exactly where the bullet's path was going to go is going to sit well compared to testifying I had the gun's sights lined up via eyes.

Is there a time for point-shooting? Yes. However, too many regular people glorify it to the point they dismiss sighted fire because Johnny Rocket can teach someone in a matter of minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krav Maga
Point shooting and sighting in have their place.If im shooting over 15 yards and/or need pinpoint accuracy,then i use my sights.But in a narrow hallway,or if surrounded,both the carry guns are coming out and im going to be fast,with pointing.Practice is everything.
This is just flat out.....well, I'm sure fellow members that are clear thinking can fill in the blank in their own head.
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Old January 8, 2011, 07:58 AM   #27
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Sorry, do not understand this quote.
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Old January 8, 2011, 08:22 AM   #28
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Shane Tuttle:

What have you got against "got?"

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Old January 8, 2011, 01:26 PM   #29
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Bad guys standing in your hallway-you better have practiced enough with what ever handgun you chose to hit him in the chest with a whole cylinder or mag of rounds without aiming-just holding the gun and point shooting.

If you can't-get practicing.

I can easily put five rounds from my Model 85 into a pie plate at ten feet without using the sites -double action-fast shooting-.

The same goes for sixteen rounds out of my P95 if needed.

Or my Model 10 Smith or my 617 if it came to that.

Odd thing about revolvers though,I've found I have to slightly angle my wrist down when I point shoot them.

But you get used to it.
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Old January 8, 2011, 02:01 PM   #30
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Point shooting is still aiming you know.
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Old January 8, 2011, 08:54 PM   #31
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One problem I see with point shooting (or target focused shooting) is that folks practicing the technique tend to shoot paper targets. If you can see the bullet holes, you get immediate feed back and can adjust your grip to compensate.

IMHO, if you want to see how effective you would actually be, hang a shirt over the target. I can tell you from extensive hunting, entrance wounds bleed very little and even a nekkid BG would not allow you to adjust your grip and stance for best results.

Obviously if you are engaging at hand-to-hand combat distances, extending the handgun would probably not be a good idea, but nothing wrong with step two of the four count draw.
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Old January 8, 2011, 09:02 PM   #32
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Quote:
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Sorry, do not understand this quote.
Max Payne is a video game character who uses two pistols simultaneously.
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Old January 8, 2011, 10:44 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B.N.Real
I can easily put five rounds from my Model 85 into a pie plate at ten feet without using the sites -double action-fast shooting-.
And a pie plate size spread at that distance is awful big compared to the general accepted term of center mass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by B.N.Real
Bad guys standing in your hallway-you better have practiced enough with what ever handgun you chose to hit him in the chest with a whole cylinder or mag of rounds without aiming-just holding the gun and point shooting.
And why is a generalized statement such as this automatically give credence to point shooting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit
Point shooting is still aiming you know.
It is? By whose standards?
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Old January 9, 2011, 12:09 AM   #34
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In the past we've had some spirited discussions about point shooting, here on TFL. In those discussions, many of the proponents of Threat Focused Shooting have maintained that; under the stress of sudden, unexpected gun play, one will revert to one handed, unsighted fire. In some cases, this might be true. However, as the video below so graphically illustrates, that even under extreme, sudden, life threatening stress. It is possible to deliver accurate, sighted, return fire.

Drunk Driver Shoots At Cop

I myself have argued that, while Threat Focused Shooting is a valuable tool; sighted fire is generally superior, given the relatively weak nature of handgun rounds to begin with. Also the ballistic wounds required to incapacitate someone and the specific portions of the body that need to be struck to facilitate that incapacitation (the CNS, heart & aorta).The more accurately you can direct your fire, the better your chances are for success.

Thirty plus years ago, when I began practicing defensive shooting in earnest. I shot my Colt Trooper Mk III, almost exclusively in a Threat Focused manner, ala Bill Jordan. However, when I transitioned to the 1911 and the Modern Technique, my accuracy rate markedly increased, while my draw to first shot time slowed only a little. As an example, from five yards, using point shooting it took me roughly 3.5 seconds to draw and fire 6 full power .357 Magnums. They were nearly always scattered about the A & C Zones of an IPSC target. On the other hand, with a 1911 and sighted fire; 2.5-3 seconds is my norm for 8-9 full power .45s. All of which land in the A-Zone.

Watch the youtube video below & then tell me that the shooters sighted fire looks too slow to win a lethal encounter.

Mozambique Drill

In conclusion, I would like to say that, not at all do I dismiss Threat Focused Shooting. In fact I practice it regularly at ranges of 5 yards and less. Because, you never know the exact shape and form a deadly encounter may take. At this current date I believe that Rob Pincus's Threat Continuum ideas are some of the best. Which is, the ability to smoothly transition between Threat Focused shooting and sighted fire, depending on the circumstances.
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Old January 9, 2011, 08:48 AM   #35
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I always find this debate interesting and I take a little from everyone's opinion. I also try to learn from those who have "seen the elephant" whenever I can giving credence to those things that make sense. For example, Fairbairn and Sykes (as well as Applegate) told us that sights weren't necessary at very close distances and only served to slow us down when fractions of seconds count. What's wrong with this? Is it outmoded or outdated? Regarding close fighting distances, can we shoot a pistol faster without sights than with sights? If the answer is yes than the remaining question is can we shoot accurate enough, with practice, to stop the threat without sights?

I think the answer to all of this is much simplier than it appears. To me the simple answer is the practice. Practicing to the point that unconscious competence is achieved. For example, I read a disparaging comment about "zippering". It has been my observation, this can done quite well and extremely fast starting at contact range while creating distance. Will the hits be in the X ring? Maybe not, but it can still be effective at stopping the threat if the rounds are placed high in the torso.
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Old January 9, 2011, 08:52 AM   #36
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"" many of the proponents of Threat Focused Shooting have maintained that; under the stress of sudden, unexpected gun play, one will revert to one handed, unsighted fire. ""

My thoughts are, if time does not allow a sighted first shot, use point to get things rolling then sighted to complete the mission. ( It's also likely the subject will have moved after the first shot being fired so at minimum one must reacquire the target.)

On the auto racing / real street driving end of things again, many regular people taking a street survival driving class tend to push peddles in a _effort to make something happen_. It seems when the situation gets stressful, they know what they want to accomplish ( stop the car from sliding ) but they lack skills - situational planning and end up doing something standing on the throttle.
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Old January 9, 2011, 12:21 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bds32
For example, I read a disparaging comment about "zippering". It has been my observation, this can done quite well and extremely fast starting at contact range while creating distance. Will the hits be in the X ring? Maybe not, but it can still be effective at stopping the threat if the rounds are placed high in the torso.
That was me making that remark. As I reread my post, I believe you deserve clarification.

The zipper technique could have its place in contact distance. One may be at the point of desperation it contact distance that the zipper technique is your only way of protecting yourself from imminent death. Problem I see is the term "creating distance". I firmly believe the ONLY time my firearm will be fired is to shoot to stop if it's at all possible. And the best locations for that is to strike the CNS via center of chest or brain via eyesockets/nose. Nothing else. I don't play keepaway by firing low and working my way up. I'm not going to use the zipper technique of I have a chance for other methods I feel is best.
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Old January 9, 2011, 08:03 PM   #38
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If all else fails, go to what you know

I taught Professionally, weapons, full time, from 1980 till 2004.

Three incidents, all 3 my Students, Common denominator, all S&W Mod 64 Revolvers.

# 1/ Plain Van, motif on side doors, ATM maintenance staff, Driver armed, other Chap not yet. He did not move away from the lights quick enough, Dvr. behind bumped him.

Intending to step out of van to check for damage, but was taking belt off, they are required to take License plate # and, if possible exchange id, two half Brothers in Car ( with records, found out later) both of these brothers were drinking, time, afternoon, good light, no rain, cool.

Driver of car came out quickly, boxer, was at the door of the van quickly, and proceeded to break side mirror off, hearing his Brother call for help, he turned back.

Both of these brothers were not large men, brother #2, had to climb over seat to exit, I think the car was a Camero.

The unarmed employee, exited van, in time to meet #2 with Pint Glass, with handle, containing Rum, that was then swung against head of employee, breaking, he was BIG! 6'5" Brothers now changed sides, the Pint glass was now a handle only, jagged piece facing front.

The armed driver was now out of Van, seeing the person advancing on him with the broken glass, drew to his two handed hold, and told the individual to drop the glass.

He did not, and continued to advance, 4" from muzzle, shot fired. Looking at eyes of attacker.
Stopped at once, eyes opened wide, took a half step back, vertical collapse.

Round .38 Special, SWC Lead bullet straight through and through, found on the gurney. Not deformed, heart was punctured.

#2 / Brinks employee, squirted with oven cleaner, in eyes, robber took off with bag of cash. Chasing after his bag of cash, trying to clear his eyes!

Spun around going after his bag of cash! Turning corner, sees a gun pointed at him, from cover, guy behind a a telegraph pole, seeing this, he went prone, the .45 ACP round struck the ground, broke up, one bit hit his leg.

Distance to shooter, 20 yds. The Brinks employee, aimed, fired twice, he told me he saw sights clearly, one of his shots went into bush, one through and through, stomach, now wears bag, the robber.


#3 / Female ATM Armored Car attendant.

About 3 AM, driver in Truck, both attendants exiting cash drop, at Bank, City Bank, Radio message from Driver "You have 3 Blk Youths, hanging around entrance, of Bank"

The Female was senior member, she exited first, the 17 year old, with hands in pockets, parka, winter, stuck hand forward inside pocket, "Give it up Bitch" empty cash unit dropped, and she found she is looking at the wee lines on the front sight, clear as a bell! Right in the middle of his face!

"Don't F+++++G move" She said, and possibly some other words. Lots of "I was only kidding" the youngest, 12 YOA, wet himself. Police took a while, no powers of arrest. They were sent on their way. Her finger was on the trigger, no pressure, she said. But most definite about the front sight.

Just B/4 they continued on their run, Police drove up, two man car, that's them across the Rd, waiting at Bus Stop. The GUN MAN! had a warrant, he was gone, the youngest was on Vacation from the Islands, another unit took him home!
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Old January 9, 2011, 08:23 PM   #39
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Point shooting at contact distance is fine. You're up close and personal.

I know I wouldn't expect my students to be able to shoot out an eyeball in 2 seconds across a room. If thats a personal goal that you want to work towards, thats one thing.
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Old January 9, 2011, 10:02 PM   #40
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I couldn't read through your description of what you do/don't do.

Probably couldn't take your "LEO" class either.


What's your point?

What's the question?
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Old January 9, 2011, 11:13 PM   #41
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The zipper technique, at least as taught to me, is rounds on CNS starting from the first possible moment the gun can be brought to bear on the target and working up to the thoracic cavity. One begins shooting pretty much just out of the holster and uses rounds fired during the draw stroke / presentation to put a line of rounds up the bad guy's centerline.

Tell me why that's a bad plan if you have the skill and that's what the circumstance dictates.
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Old January 10, 2011, 12:03 AM   #42
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Quote:
The zipper technique, at least as taught to me, is rounds on CNS starting from the first possible moment the gun can be brought to bear on the target and working up to the thoracic cavity. One begins shooting pretty much just out of the holster and uses rounds fired during the draw stroke / presentation to put a line of rounds up the bad guy's centerline. Tell me why that's a bad plan if you have the skill and that's what the circumstance dictates.
As I was taught the 4 points of draw from Randy Cain, the firearm is immediately tucked away from the assailant under the pectoral muscle tight against my rib along the side. The smallest fraction of a second from holster to that position doesn't really justify slinging bullets in the meantime. Actually, it leaves fewer rounds available to attempt center mass if anything. Other than that, you've proven my point that there may be a time for the zipper technique and don't see where we're disagreeing.
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Old January 10, 2011, 12:46 AM   #43
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alot of the debate seams to be over the terminology,in a defensive situation there isnt always time to bring the gun up and get in a perfect weaver stance and align the sights before the shot is taken.what applgate,fairbain and sykes were refering to as point shooting still involved bringing the gun up to eyelevel and aquiring the front sight before taking the shot.so it isnt shoot from the hip oldwest pointshooting it is sighted fire.mas ayoob uses the term "flash sight picture" which i think acuratly describes modern point shooting and what most of us are talking about.
if you carry a gun defensevly you should practice all types of positions because we never know the circumstances of the fight till were there,therefore we owe it to ourselves to know how we shoot in different positions.
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Old January 10, 2011, 09:19 AM   #44
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Actually, it leaves fewer rounds available to attempt center mass if anything.
Holes in, blood out is never a bad thing (on the BG) IMO.
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Old January 10, 2011, 08:56 PM   #45
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Holes in, blood out is never a bad thing (on the BG) IMO.
Yet it's even better to have a bullet available to hit where it will be more effective.

Hmmmm.....bullet in the gut or in the heart?....I choose the heart.
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Old January 10, 2011, 10:07 PM   #46
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I suggest reading Bill Jordan's classic book, "No Second Place Winner".
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Old January 10, 2011, 10:24 PM   #47
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I see no need to practice "point-shooting" because I practice sighted-fire with a consistent draw-stroke. What this does for me is ingrain specific index or reference points within my draw-stroke that can serve as "non-sighted fire solutions" if the need were to arise (proximity to target, movement, etc.).

However, practicing point-shooting does not really help build your skills for precise aimed-fire.

In other words, good sighted-fire can degrade to good point-shooting, but point-shooting does not upgrade to good aimed-fire.

The problem I see with most people who strenuously defend/advocate point-shooting is that they seldom have any specific time/accuracy standards they can point to (sorry, couldn't resist the pun :P). It's not hard to find a ton of examples of fast, accurate sighted fire (IDPA/IPSC videos, etc.)...when was the last time you saw someone turn in a competent run on a drill like El Pres or the F.A.S.T. using point-shooting?

I guess it seems that to accept point-shooting as the preferred method, you often have to be willing to accept a significantly lower accuracy standard at anything beyond kissing distances.
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Old January 10, 2011, 10:35 PM   #48
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I am a point shooter.

I build up the natural muscle memory with each given gun.

For one of my berettas I am scary accurate with point shooting (of course I have 7.5k of documented rounds thru the gun).

Only time i actually aim with a gun is a new gun or when I am silhouette shooting with one of my encore pistols or hamerelli target pistols.
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Old January 11, 2011, 12:36 AM   #49
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Quote:
I don't play keepaway by firing low and working my way up. I'm not going to use the zipper technique of I have a chance for other methods I feel is best.
The term "zippering" may be the wrong term to describe what I mean. I am talking about instantly leveling the muzzle just as it clears leather, followed by rounds into the torso, while simultaneously bringing the pistol up to eye level, all while shooting and moving back and laterally. I didn't think of it as working my way up but it would seem the term implies working up. The whole idea is to get hits on the guy across from you before you take a hit. With consistent practice, I still think it is a viable solution when you're up close and personal.
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Old January 11, 2011, 07:05 AM   #50
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I don't think the debate is entirely about terminology at all. Part of the problem is a question of how good is good enough. For average or less than average people, like myself, there is no way we can practice enough of any particular shooting method to satisify most people's standards on this forum, if I read the posts correctly, much less become a trick shooter like Bill Jordan. I'm 64 years old and I've still haven't fired 7.5k (undocumented) in total for my entire life. No wonder I was such a terrible shot.

Remember, Fairbairn and especially Applegate worked with people who had mostly no firearms experience and were going to be armed with virtually no training. In Applegate's case, he had the luxury of perhaps a day's training with a revolver before they went off to war. Typically, that's probably how much effort most civilians put into learning to use their revolvers before putting them in the top dresser drawer, in case it was ever needed.
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