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Old February 26, 2015, 04:06 PM   #26
showmebob
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Raimius, "Showmebob, I'm wondering what leads you to the conclusion that quick, accurate follow-up shots are not that important in defensive shootings. Is that based on speculation or scientific study?"
Snyper pretty much answered this with his reply "Quick shots can be important, but the tiny fractions of a second difference caused by various grip styles is negligible"

I was taught to shoot and assess not shoot, shoot and then assess. Also, I have 3 carry guns that really don't work with thumbs forward grip. (2 semi's and a revolver) I have nothing against thumbs forward it's just not what I think works best for me using multiple types of firearms. Thumbs crossed is the best universal grip for me. I have tea cupped, thumbs forward, thumbs down and crossed, thumbs crossed behind the hammer, strong hand, weak hand and likely a few I've forgotten and still use them all for practice.

As a traditional bowhunter for 18 years I realized quickly that deer and elk don't allow you time to take the perfect stance so I practiced for every conceivable situation. Shooting in a defensive situation should be the same. I believe one should learn as many ways to hold a firearm as you can and then you will have options if needed.
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Old February 26, 2015, 05:46 PM   #27
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If one's interest is self defense, why not learn to be both?
Why do you think everyone has to do things your way to be both?

There is no "one size fits all" when it comes to shooting efficiently.

The "latest styles" are not always better than what was used before.

They are merely different.

Their popularity comes from "monkey see, monkey do" in many cases, when the older ways have always worked for most.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics-t...e-combat-grip/
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Old February 26, 2015, 06:13 PM   #28
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
Why do you think everyone has to do things your way to be both?

There is no "one size fits all" when it comes to shooting efficiently.

The "latest styles" are not always better than what was used before.

They are merely different.

Their popularity comes from "monkey see, monkey do" in many cases, when the older ways have always worked for most.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics-t...e-combat-grip/
Did I say that there's only one way to do anything?

But certain techniques have proven themselves more efficient, and certain techniques have been shown to be less efficient. In this case, for quick, accurate shooting either the "thumbs forward" or the "thumb-over-thumb" have been demonstrated to be effective -- when properly used.

The "teacup" is demonstrably less efficient. You'll notice that the article you linked to didn't mention the teacup grip as a viable option.
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Old February 26, 2015, 06:27 PM   #29
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Geeze, you guys.
There's been no mention of the weak hand grip of the strong hand wrist method.
Now, really.
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Old February 26, 2015, 06:35 PM   #30
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Their popularity comes from "monkey see, monkey do" in many cases, when the older ways have always worked for most.
Well, youre always going to have the monkeys who are adventurous, who like to push their barriers, and expand their horizons, by learning new things and staying on top of their game or profession, whatever the case may be.

Then you have those who are not quite as adventurous, and are comfortable staying where they are. By doing so, those monkeys often tend to stagnate, and deceive themselves as to their skills.

The older ways work until something is found to work better. Does that mean they still dont work? Not at all. But if you cant keep up with others around you, who have embraced a new way, then you'd probably do yourself better, by trying to find out why they are and you arent.

The only way to know is to try and prove the new way wrong. So far, I really havent been able to do that, with solid (as opposed to gimmicky) methods, and Ive always moved on for the most part.

Im not saying Ive totally given up on the old ways, just that I take what part of them that works in certain situations, and embrace them, when needed. I simply use what works best, when needed.

I think if youve been around long enough, and have used them all at some point, you know that there really is no "one" way to do things, and that more often than not, you morph through many of them, even unknowingly creating combinations of them as you go, especially if your shooting is reactive and realistic as opposed to static.


Quote:
Geeze, you guys.
There's been no mention of the weak hand grip of the strong hand wrist method.
Now, really.
I think that was well out of fashion back in the DOS command prompt age of computers, wasnt it?
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Old February 26, 2015, 07:56 PM   #31
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Quote:
Did I say that there's only one way to do anything?
You always imply it.

Quote:
But certain techniques have proven themselves more efficient, and certain techniques have been shown to be less efficient. In this case, for quick, accurate shooting either the "thumbs forward" or the "thumb-over-thumb" have been demonstrated to be effective -- when properly used.
That's all well and good IF it works for you.

It doesn't mean other techniques are less effective, even if they aren't the current fad

Quote:
The "teacup" is demonstrably less efficient. You'll notice that the article you linked to didn't mention the teacup grip as a viable option.
There were many things it didn't mention, so that is irrelevant
It did mention the thumbs forward wasn't "better".
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Old February 26, 2015, 08:04 PM   #32
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Well, youre always going to have the monkeys who are adventurous, who like to push their barriers, and expand their horizons, by learning new things and staying on top of their game or profession, whatever the case may be.
Again, you're assuming because not everyone agrees with what you think is a "proper grip", they don't know about it or havent tried it at all.

Following the latest craze isn't always "staying on top"

It can also be called following the herd

Quote:
I think if youve been around long enough, and have used them all at some point, you know that there really is no "one" way to do things, and that more often than not, you morph through many of them, even unknowingly creating combinations of them as you go, especially if your shooting is reactive and realistic as opposed to static.
That's been my whole point all along
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Old February 26, 2015, 08:21 PM   #33
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Again, you're assuming because not everyone agrees with what you think is a "proper grip", they don't know about it or havent tried it at all.
Im not assuming anything, I was just stating a fact.

Quote:
Following the latest craze isn't always "staying on top"

It can also be called following the herd
Who said anything about following. If you dont try whats new, and prove or disprove it, how will you ever get anywhere? You'll just stagnate and remain where you are.

I prefer to try and stay ahead of, or at least in the front the herd, so I keep trying everything and anything I can, that might offer improvement, as it presents itself.

Quote:
That's been my whole point all along
Mine too. So whats the problem?
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Old February 26, 2015, 09:45 PM   #34
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Showmebob. You mentioned learning multiple ways gripping of a handgun so you have options. I kinda feel like if you have options you have to consider then which means taking time to think. Now it seems to me if someone were attacking you and you take time to think your going to end up dead. Like chappy Sinclair told Doug Masters in Iron Eagle (I want you to go over this plan till you have it automatic). Wouldn't it be better to practice one draw and one grip until you don't even have to think about it you just react?
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Old February 26, 2015, 11:35 PM   #35
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Wouldn't it be better to practice one draw and one grip until you don't even have to think about it you just react?
Yes...and no. self-defensive training should include one and two hand drawing, shooting, reloading, malfunction clearing, moving, using cover, firing from retention, various round counts, balancing of speed and precision, small target, large target, near and far, multiple targets, differing stances....

You really don't want to stand at a line and just draw and use one grip and think you're now good to go.

There are grips which provide better recoil control and if your 0.1 of a second quicker shot happens to end the fight (think hit on CNS or opposing weapon) well that would be pretty important. I think it's silly to think otherwise. In defensive shooting, speed and hits on target are paramount.

I use thumbs forward for semi-auto two hand training, thumb flagged for the one hand work because that is best for ME. I didn't start out that way 40 years ago. Way back then we stood sideways, stuck one hand in our pocket and extended the pistol in the other hand -tinkered with many types of grips, until I found the current setup. (Tinkered is not 10 rounds, but 100's)

Can't really tell you what will work for YOU, but when you find the type of grip YOU will use, then work on dry fire drills until the grip is built automatically.

Quote:
There's been no mention of the weak hand grip of the strong hand wrist method.
g.willikers/AK103K – Ya’ll have the time line a little confused. The Tea Cup grip was going out of style about the time IBM PC’s hit the shelves with their DOS 1.0 operating systems in the early 80’s. Grabbing the wrist went out of vogue back when we were using slide rules, around the mid 70’s. The OP might pick up the hint about these two grips styles…..
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Old February 27, 2015, 03:15 AM   #36
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Would this be "thumb over thumb"? or something else?
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Old February 27, 2015, 08:00 AM   #37
g.willikers
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^^^^^^^^
Do believe that is called the "it's too heavy to hold" grip.
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Old February 27, 2015, 10:30 AM   #38
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Once you start to move, and deal with targets on the flanks as you go, youre likely going to find that you wont be able to use your normal "static" grip at all.

Assuming a right handed shooter, targets to the right, are basically going to be addressed one handed, as its very difficult to maintain a two handed grip.

Targets to the left, and I think you will see yourself sliding into a form of Weaver as you go.

Theres a lot to be said for being well versed in many things, flexible and adaptable.
I agree with this. I practice a lot of one handed shooting, both right and left (weak side for me). I also practice coming from a one-handed low ready position to on-target... For me, I find the thumbs down (left thumb on top of right thumb) to be the fastest grip to get into and on target... and it is a grip I can use on all of my pistols and revolvers.

I tried the thumbs forward for a year, and in certain instances with certain guns I noticed a slight improvement in the accuracy of a long string of rapid fire. But under stress I was reverting back to 20 years of thumbs down habit. And as I mentioned, I found it a little slower to get into this grip. So I gave it up. Plus, the whole exercise of trying something new set my skills back... It took some practice to recover back to where I started from... lesson learned: don't screw around with changing something that basic.

For carefully aimed precision target work, I use a variation on the teacup grip. I use it even with heavy recoiling guns like my super red hawk. Both elbows bent, left hand fully carrying the weight of the gun, and the right hand gripping just tight enough. I let the recoil bring the gun straight up, and very little recoil makes back to my shoulders. Observers sometimes advise me to grip the gun tighter... " wow that gun is really pushing you around, you should lock your arms down..." except I can make a 3 inch group at 50 yards, and shoot 70 rounds of hot 300 grain handloads in an afternoon without a problem ... people who "lock down on the gun" can't often do that. Teacup for a combat gun? would not work for me.

For someone starting out today, I would advise them to learn the thumbs forward grip as the default style... If they can't make it work, then try something else. But for people who have been shooting for 20, 30, or 40 years, sticking with what works is a very valid decision.

Jim
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Old February 27, 2015, 12:17 PM   #39
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The problem with a lot of conversations like this is that some percentage of the participants are really only looking to validate and defend their preferences and prejudices.

Unfortunately, some things objectively work better than others. It's usually the newer techniques which supplant or replace the older ones, not the other way around.

Stubborn adherence to something that "worked just fine for ..." <insert old-gun-hero or WW2 reference here> would mean we still fought with prop driven fighter planes and tiger tanks. That kind of nonsense just doesn't hold weight.

It's important to know when you simply "like" something better, as opposed to it being demonstrably, objectively better.

And no ... it's not "just a matter of opinion".
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Old February 27, 2015, 01:12 PM   #40
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Coyotewsm Quote:[Showmebob. You mentioned learning multiple ways gripping of a handgun so you have options. I kinda feel like if you have options you have to consider then which means taking time to think. Now it seems to me if someone were attacking you and you take time to think your going to end up dead. Like chappy Sinclair told Doug Masters in Iron Eagle (I want you to go over this plan till you have it automatic). Wouldn't it be better to practice one draw and one grip until you don't even have to think about it you just react?]

Coyotewsm, I would agree with your statement if all attacks took place with the person standing, the BG guy no closer than 7 feet or so, with no obstructions around and fully able to use their strong side draw. I would not want to stop and think about it. In that situation it would be an automatic response to use what you practice the most.

What about when you are sitting in your car? Maybe your sidearm is not on your side. Maybe it's in the console, door pocket or elsewhere. Which side of the car is the attack coming from? Which hand are you forced to shoot from?

What if you are injured in one hand or arm? You are on the ground? I think there are lots of possibilities one should consider.

Since this has not been mentioned (it's very much worth a try)!

http://www.sabretactical.com/CAR.pdf and a few photo's

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...grip&FORM=IGRE

Training is fun and I like variety, knowledge is power!
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Old February 27, 2015, 02:12 PM   #41
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Please note the following, quoted from the Forum menu description of this forum.

Quote:
This is a "no holds barred" training area.
And that the OP didn't ask "what is the best grip", or what is the most effective / efficient grip. Nor did he specify for defensive shooting, or for speed shooting, or anything like that. He just asked about a "proper" grip.

I'll say it again, the "proper" grip is what ever gets the job done for you, and keeps both you and the gun from damage.

I have handguns ranging in size from a pocket .22 through a Desert Eagle ending up with 14" barrel Contenders. No one gripping style is optimal for all of them in all of the situations I use them. Some style of grip are a very poor idea for some guns and some people.

What the combat match shooters are doing this decade might be "demonstrably, objectively better", but that's only true when you are talking about them, or maybe you, and not me.

A "better" technique is only better if the shooter can use it better, if they can use it at all. While we put most emphasis on defensive shooting (with good reason), there are other kinds of handgun shooting where the same styles are not as important, or possibly even detrimental.

And even in defensive shooting, different people, different guns, different results. What works well for a 6' 250lb size 9 glove wearing 1911A1 shooter might not be the best grip for the 5' 115lb size 6 glove shooting a Colt Agent snubnose, etc.
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Old February 27, 2015, 03:35 PM   #42
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Alright I'll clarify and clear this up. I'm not talking about revolvers, I don't own one. Second I'm talking about deffinsive shooting or the training to do so.
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Old February 27, 2015, 04:04 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
...A "better" technique is only better if the shooter can use it better,...
One thing about using "a 'better' technique better." Sometimes that's a training/practice issue.

In the days when my wife and I were helping coach our youth trapshooting team, we got a lot of experience helping someone change to a technique which offered the potential for better performance. Often one of our shooters reach a plateau and just couldn't seem to improve beyond a certain point. And often the problem was that he was doing something that he thought "worked for him", but it only worked to a point.

So we'd work on showing him a better, more generally accepted way. Initially, his performance would deteriorate, and he'd become frustrated. But with continued training and work, he start to get the hang of the better technique and his scores would improve beyond where he have been stuck.

That is the common "natural history" of making any change that offers the potential for improvement. Breaking old habits can be hard, and something new might initially seem not to work too well. But the new way can offer greater "up-side" if one sticks with it.
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Old February 27, 2015, 05:19 PM   #44
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Quote:
Alright I'll clarify and clear this up. I'm not talking about revolvers, I don't own one. Second I'm talking about deffinsive shooting or the training to do so.
Assuming you have the space and both hands, assuming a modified Isosceles stance with a thumbs forward grip will likely produce the fasted and most easily repeated fire from service-caliber and sized handguns. (Basically, what works best in IPSC/IDPA)

You'll note there are a few qualifiers in there!
-If you are too close-quarters for a fully extended stance, two hands may not be the best grip.
-If you are at an odd angle, the ISO two-handed grip may not be the best.
-If you have an unusually large or small pistol, you may need to adapt to that.
-If you have an unusual caliber, you may need to adapt to that.
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Old February 27, 2015, 05:25 PM   #45
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I really enjoy hearing opinions from other shooters!
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Old March 1, 2015, 02:44 PM   #46
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This is a really fun video to watch, makes a lot of good points about keeping things simple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChSazF41q-s
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Old March 1, 2015, 02:48 PM   #47
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Fighting with a handgun depends on a few things, carrying a pistol with lots of rounds, is good! You might need them.

One with night sights? Good. It is normally poor light, that you get jumped.

One assailant, he has just stabbed you, you lace him with rounds! Why, because you do. A good two handed grip (your preference) if your off arm/hand is damaged, use the one that is good.

But no one has ever wished for less rounds in a fight! So use a grip that works on a fat grip.
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Old March 1, 2015, 03:59 PM   #48
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Thanks njsco. As with most of his videos, always a good watch.
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