22lr effective as?

[MarkCO]

.22LR is a little better than a knife in most cases.

[Green Lantern]

If the attacker has no weapon. One will work.

One in the eye socket or eye drum.

[OldMarksman]

One in the eye socket or eye drum.

If one had the time to try that, on is unlikely to be able to put forth a persuasive argument supporting a reasonable belief that the immediate necessity and imminent threat necessary to justify the lawful use of deadly force existed.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

This is an old debate. To summarize:

1. 22s are reasonable if that is all you have and/or physical limitations lead you to use such. Ayoob recommended a single action 22 LR revolver for an older person with limited hand strength.

2. There is great benefit of deterring folks with the presence of a handgun. Deterrence occurs more than having shots fired. Before someone pontificates that the zombie, crazed, meth head, biker won't be deterred - MOST will be deterred, so why throw away that majority benefit by not having such a gun (if that's all or handicapped)? Elmer Keith - the 44 mag guy - said a 22 is small until it is pointed at you.

3. Figuring out the equivalency of a 22 to a 9 is fun. Probably technically impossible to do with accuracy. I love the binomial theorem and used to teach it.

Anecdotes are fun. There is the police officer who unloaded a 357 into a guy who stayed in the fight and killed the officer with a 22 mag NAA Mini if IIRC.

What is the eye drum? BTW, there is no guarantee that a shot into the eye socket will instantly disable someone. Folks have fought through eye damage and you don't know if that shot will penetrate to more important CNS structures. Spouting tough guy cliches isn't really useful.

If you take a gun targeting anatomy class you don't aim for the eyes in a head shot. Shooting into the ear canal in a dynamic situation is difficult to say the least. Try to get that precision by hitting some area the size of a dime in a steel challenge match under speed and stress situations.

To summarize - if you are a beginner, your best bet (if you are serious and not one of our instinctive warriors who don't need to train) is to learn to master a quality semi auto, probably in 9mm. Learn to shoot accurately, the basics and then move on to trying such under stress in appropriate classes and competitions. They are better tests of 'in the eye socket' than the square range at 3 yards.

That being said - if circumstances or ability lead me to only use my Buckmark, Bearcat or Ruger 10/22 - I'm going to do that rather than wave the frying pan like in a Lifetime Movie Network flic where you hear a noise at night.

PS - versus a knife. You have to close with a knife. Distance is your friend. Let's not be silly again with the cliches.

[Terminatorret]

Thanks, "mavracer"... I agree 100%.
Today, I went to town with only a Ruger Single Six strapped to my belt and an NAA mini in my pocket. I left my .357 Blackhawks (2), my Service Sixes (2), my Makarovs (2), my CZ82 and 83 and my PPK at home. I guess that if I felt I needed "nuclear handgun power", I would have strapped on my CZ-52 or M57 7.62x25's...but the Single Six beckoned me today, and I didn't feel outgunned nor fearful.
15 years as a trauma nurse in the local ER taught me that handgun dependability and accuracy far outweigh caliber. Those .22 LR's are nasty.

[t45]

I do not deny that a 22lr could stop an attacker. I often wonder what the lawyers are going to say when you had to empty 6-9 shots into someone to stop them when possibly (and I say possibly) a single shot from a 9mm 40cal or 45acp could have stopped the fight.

[481]

Originally Posted by t45

I do not deny that a 22lr could stop an attacker. I often wonder what the lawyers are going to say when you had to empty 6-9 shots into someone to stop them when possibly (and I say possibly) a single shot from a 9mm 40cal or 45acp could have stopped the fight.

If it is a legitimate self-defense incident, the lawyers can, and will say a lot, but the merits of the case will also come to bear. If that caliber (the .22LR) was all that was in hand or available at the time of need and there was a justifiable need to shoot to preserve life and limb, then that is all that matters. If the case can made that the person defending their life with the .22 had the time and ability to run off, obtain and return with another weapon in another caliber, then the self-defense shooting would be unjustifiable and caliber would matter very little.

[RAEIndustries]

In the back of the ear just one

[jstert]

i cannot add much to the well informed discussion here except to carry what you are physically and financially comfortable practicing alot with. if one’s lifestyle regularly places a person out and about in dangerous places at night then a centerfire handgun or a lifestyle change is the best choice.

im a big fan of 22, both lr and wmr, and 17hmr in a rifle. they are fun at the range, affordable, easily carried with a bunch of ammo, and will mostly work for my lifestyle and physical abilities as i age.


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[CDW4ME]

Originally Posted by jstert

i cannot add much to the well informed discussion here except to carry what you are physically and financially comfortable practicing alot with. if one’s lifestyle regularly places a person out and about in dangerous places at night then a centerfire handgun or a lifestyle change is the best choice.

im a big fan of 22, both lr and wmr, and 17hmr in a rifle. they are fun at the range, affordable, easily carried with a bunch of ammo, and will mostly work for my lifestyle and physical abilities as i age.


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Implicit in this is that a 22 is sufficient for "non-dangerous" places during daytime, as if attackers are anemic in daylight, or if they happen to be in a "good" area.

Lifestyle may limit the likelihood of being attacked (having to use deadly force) but if the situation (attacker) justifies deadly force, lifestyle is irrelevant.

Someone coming at you with a knife (weapon) is the same lethal threat during daylight in Small Town USA as it is Atlanta at night.

I want the same threat stopping potential regardless of light or location.

[Blindstitch]

I do not deny that a 22lr could stop an attacker. I often wonder what the lawyers are going to say when you had to empty 6-9 shots into someone to stop them

I sat on a trial where a person with a 22lr robbed a drug dealer and their lackey in their home and the defendant tried to argue that it was a love affair gone wrong because several flailing shots ended up in the man specific anatomy. Truth be told if the guy was carrying another magazine the witness would also be dead. Most of the shots were center mass and traveled through the body like they were in a silly straw.

I would prefer a 9mm but anythings better than a sharp stick.

[jstert]

Originally Posted by CDW4ME

Implicit in this is that a 22 is sufficient for "non-dangerous" places during daytime, as if attackers are anemic in daylight, or if they happen to be in a "good" area.



Lifestyle may limit the likelihood of being attacked (having to use deadly force) but if the situation (attacker) justifies deadly force, lifestyle is irrelevant.



Someone coming at you with a knife (weapon) is the same lethal threat during daylight in Small Town USA as it is Atlanta at night.



I want the same threat stopping potential regardless of light or location.

implicit in my comment is the limitation on our physical capability as we age or become chronically ill. i too may “want” what i could use with ease at another point in my life. indeed some persons cannot change their location. if the only protection that a person can handle is a rimfire then my humble advice is to get a rimfire and become comfortable with it. while attacks can happen anywhere and anytime, situational awareness and prudence count for protection perhaps as much as caliber size. thankfully americans enjoy many choices for the most suitable protection tool.


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[OldMarksman]

Lifestyle may limit the likelihood of being attacked (having to use deadly force) but if the situation (attacker) justifies deadly force, lifestyle is irrelevant.

Someone coming at you with a knife (weapon) is the same lethal threat during daylight in Small Town USA as it is Atlanta at night.

I want the same threat stopping potential regardless of light or location.

That's about the size of it.

[ShootistPRS]

If I get to the point where I can't handle anything but a 22RF I will get very good with whatever gun I use.
After all is said and done, you use what you have to the best of your ability and if the Creator is willing you stay alive. (forgive the PC wording)

[ms6852]

The 22lr is a very lethal round it will allow for better shot placement from a novice shooter because the recoil is very minimal. It will also allow the shooter to practice more because the ammunition is a lot cheaper. It will kill but how fast is all dependent on shot placement. A bigger caliber gun with more recoil will kill and create more wound damage due to cavitation from hydrostatic shock which in turn can take the fight out of the aggressor much faster than a 22lr will. But shot placement is key and if recoil is that bad from a larger caliber bullet it is less likely that also the individual will not be as accurate. I worked many many years in an Emergency Trauma center and in my life time just as many people died from a 22 as from any other type of caliber.

If you recall the shootout at the Holocaust Museum a few years ago an older man went inside the museum and he killed 2 or 3 guards using a 22 rifle. The man was finally shot in the head with a 9mm and I believe he survived several days before he died from the gunshot. So take this information for what it is worth and decide what is best for you.

[darkgael]

I like .45s.....big fat heavy bullets plowing right along.
That being said....the .22 is a dangerous weapon and far, far better than a knife.
Take a look at the video of the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan:
Reagan was severely wounded and three adult males were immediately incapacitated by a single round each from Hinckley’s .22.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X5Xjbnches

[tallball]

If you can shoot a 22lr, there is a 99.9% chance you can shoot a 32 S&W long.

[Psychedelic Bang]

I think it has to do with: on drugs vs not on drugs.

Somebody on meth, or pcp can walk through a poorly placed bullet, no matter the caliber. Somebody stone cold sober is very likely to be hit by one 22lr and think, "omg, he just shot me, I'm done."

Yes, of course I think there must be several stone cold sober people who can walk through a 22 lr bullet no problem - those people could likely walk through a 9 mm as well.

When it comes to 22lr I think the most famous carry gun is the North American Arms revolvers - if I had to chose between the 5 shots there and two shots in the Bond Arms 45 derringer I think I would go Bond Arms... Why? I think most people likely to attack are going to feel the one/two shots of 45 colt than the 22lr.

That being said - I do not like having two shots. So my carry is a 5 shot 38 special.

This article makes a good case for 22lr as a self defense round.. I read this article the other day

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/...-self-defense/

[Slamfire]

A bud of mine, his sister was very upset after being dumped by an ex. She decided to teach him a lesson, in front of his house, by committing suicide in her car. She shot herself through the heart with a 22 LR pistol. A passerby heard her screams and called an ambulance. The doctors determined the bullet had gone through her heart and decided not to do any surgery and let the blood clot heal. And so it was, she is still around today.

Now if she had used something larger, she probably would have bled out. I don't consider a 22lr a decent self defense round and do not recommend it.

[Psychedelic Bang]

More than five years back, I say, "more than five," because it was before I carried and I've been carrying about 5 years, I had an incident where somebody with road rage pulled right up next to me, and flashed a gun in his window - admittedly, I should have dialed 911 but dude pulled away, and I just let it go. My point being, one of the reasons I carry is because of other people's insane road rage. I'm not worried somebody is going to attack me on the streets - you would be pretty stupid as my exercise routine is pretty much Brazilian jiu jitsu all day everyday - I carry mostly concerned with A: other people's road rage, and B: gang members.

And if somebody pulls up to you in a car, and gets out, and they start shooting, or they are crazy violent.. I'm sorry, but I want my Smithy loaded with Federal HydroShock

Because I know you can not accept that bullet and continue.

When I clean my revolver, I triple, and quadruple check to make sure the thing is unloaded because I know if I accidentally hit myself with a HyrdoShock I am going to be screaming in agony.

The other thing is gang members - back when I was a youngster - age 19 - 25, I lived in Los Angeles. Gang stuff happens in bad areas, gang stuff happens in good areas too. I've seen a lot of random gang violence just happen on city streets. And that is like 5 guys at a time, 6 guys at a time.. and I just can't imagine a little bug having any effectiveness there.

So I think part of my problem is I feel South Florida - specifically Palm Beach County is a place where criminals are pretty violent, heavily armed. There are tons of drugs and gangs here, and I am just put off with the 22 lr ammo. Not to mention that rimfire ammo can have a dud here and there

I dunno, when I think 22lr I think of the tv show Gangland, and then I think, "who might randomly attack you on a street these days?" What character's and mayhem is out and about in the world?

For me the striker fired semi-auto - glock, xds, m&p is not a ccw gun. For me!! I am saying for personal reasons it is not what I like.


I am considering moving up to a hammer fired semi-auto these days - but I have some other things to think about there.

Long story short, when I begin to pick it apart, I just can't logically carry a 22lr where I live.


"Where," being the caveat.. cause if I was in a different geographical location.. "A small town in Montana, population 100." What are you going to carry there? A Glock 17? Why?

[Bill DeShivs]

I'll say it again, on the off chance that somebody might learn something-

There is no hydrostsatic shock with handgun ammunition.

[Psychedelic Bang]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

I'll say it again, on the off chance that somebody might learn something-

There is no hydrostsatic shock with handgun ammunition.

I didn't claim there was. I claimed a 38 special self defense load hurts a heck of a lot more than a 22 lr

I happen to carry Federal cause its a high quality brand and low recoil

[TailGator]

PB, an earlier post referenced hydrostatic shock. I took Mr. DeShiv's post to be answering that, and he just saw it and posted it after yours.

You seem to have a lot of confidence in your ammo, and confidence is a good thing, but be aware that none of the commonly carried handgun calibers, including .38 special, give a high percentage of one-shot stops. You describe a lot of factors that cause folks to consider increasing capacity beyond that of revolvers.

I'm kind of thinking the Palm Beach County Chamber of Commerce may not be among your biggest fans, but I understand what you are saying. It is a high enough population density to have some rough areas, and rough people don't stay in rough areas.

[CDW4ME]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

I'll say it again, on the off chance that somebody might learn something-

There is no hydrostsatic shock with handgun ammunition.

Somebody might learn something....

Here is proof of temporary cavity (shock effect) happening from a handgun bullet, on live deer lungs:

https://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0702/0702107.pdf

135 gr. Nosler @ 1,367 fps expanded diameter .58 pulverized what appears to be 1.5 inch hole in lungs.

[jetinteriorguy]

A couple of years ago my daughter had her wedding at her husbands uncles cabin. He was telling me how this black bear had been tearing up his bird feeders and how one day the only thing he had handy to scare it off was a .22 rifle he kept by the door. He just pointed it in the direction of the bear to scare it and fired one shot. The bear fell dead on the spot and he got quite concerned he had just illegally killed it by accident. So he got on his tractor and drug it into the woods a ways, dug a hole and buried it right away. Now, obviously I didn't witness this, but he's not the type to be full of it and I believed him.