Overestimation of the Effects of Drugs

[N.H. Yankee]

Wasn't human, some kind of an android. A dozen bullets maybe if all were superficial hits, a 60mph hit=DOA.

Actually there are reports of Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters taking numerous hits high on drugs. I do belief it can make a difference with hits that are not immediately lethal.

[Xyas]

I'm iffy about the truck, but it's totally possible for the guy to survive the bullets.

As mentioned by previous posters, a person's body is basically (in the purposes we're talking about) stopped by 3 things - central nervous system disruption (if your brain isn't connected to anything through the spinal cord, you can't move anything voluntarily), lack of oxygenation (loss of perfusion, blood loss etc., - if no oxygen gets to the brain, the brain can't voluntarily control what's going on, organs and muscles shut down, etc.), and a mental perception of what is happening to the body (what some of you call shock, also called acute stress reaction - the mind responds to terrifying stimuli and basically starts shutting things down).

Let's talk about the 3rd example, the acute stress reaction. Your body has a bunch of neurotransmitters and stuff. The ones that are pretty much responsible for this acetylcholine on pre-ganglionic receptors that end up releasing things like adrenaline (epinephrine), nor-epinephrine, and other catecholamines. PCP can decrease these effects on the pre-synaptic neurons in some parts of the brain, and increase them in others. So you can get increased blood pressure, increased heart rate, etc., without a person actually having actually having "shock". PCP also works on other receptors (dopamine, NMDA, etc.) which ends up leading to several things like amnesia, analgesia, and disassociation of the body and mind (which prevents the body from freaking out and shutting down!). We use a related drug called Ketamine in the ER sometimes to put people out if we have to intubate them. After speaking to some of these patients, they tell me that they felt like they were another person in the room, or flying over their body.

If it all seems very confusing, it's because it is! Psyche medications are very complicated, the receptors and neurotransmitters are all related and can all have different type of effects depending on where they're located, how they're activated, if they're inhibited, etc.

Anyways, I kinda got distracted and forgot what my point was. Basically...a person on drugs is still stoppable. Just remember, that 3rd way of stopping them probably isn't going to work (what most people call "shock). Because of the catecholamines (things like adrenaline/epi) going around in their body, the lack of perfusion route (a different form of shock) won't be your best bet either (although it will still work eventually, the body just runs out of oxygen and shuts down). CNS disruption will always stop a person the quickest.

If you have anymore questions or I kinda confused you or made things seem really complicated...it's because when it comes to psyche meds, they are! I am no expert on them but I did have a lot of schooling on them so I hope I cleared some things up and helped out some! Let me know if you have any more questions, and I'll try to answer them to the best of my ability.

~Doctor of Pharmacy

[Sefner]

Excellent post Xyas!

I do have a question, in normally functioning people, what processes do brains in shock undergo? Is it different per incident or person? I know some people shut down at different degrees of stress (if stress is the right word)... for instance in the Miami shootout those guys were able to just keep going, but then you have some people who go into shock when they haven't even been hit. What is the difference that causes that?

And as for the pelvic shot question. There is a thread somewhere about that topic. I think it boils down into that the pevlic shot is an "ok" alternative to COM. The reason is that it takes a very direct pelvic hit to render a person unable to stand. Your accuracy has to be spot on and you need a little luck. But there are also many major arteries that run through that region so with some luck a defender may hit one of those arteries, but the bleed out would take time.

[Xyas]

Without getting into too much detail (I have to get going in 5 minutes but I'll answer your question quick), the "shock" that a normal person undergoes is just due too basically a dump of catecholamines (adrenaline/epinephrine, norepinephrine as examples) into the body. You probably have heard of this as "fight of flight". Some people get amped up and fight. Other people just run or can even faint. It all basically depends on the situation. You'd be surprised how much control your mind has over your body as mentality goes. Off the top of my head I'm not sure what exactly causes the fainting of a person, sometimes it may just be hyperventilation (breathing too quickly), the person not breathing because they're holding their breath, or some other mechanism that I'm not aware of without researching somewhat, possibly related to something like myotonia congenita (note this wouldn't be the actual condition the person undergoes but it may be related mechanistically).


I don't like the term shock when referring to combat situations where a person "goes into shock" and faints or what have you. Technically there are only 4 types of shock (could argue for the 5th). They are: hypovolemic, cardiogenic, distributive, and obstructive. I can go into more detail on each one later.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help! I'll check back later and see if i could find more information out about it.

[Rampant_Colt]

I'm beginning to see a most unusual pattern with Ray33 here..

My sig is from a post he made in this thread:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...28#post4198528

[ClayInTx]

Ray33 didn’t claim this to be true. He also expressed doubt about the semi.

No harm in asking what others think of the tale.

[GunsForSale.com]

For what its worth, I've been a cop for more than 10 years. In that time, I've dealt with a lot of violent offenders under the influence of drugs/alcohol. PCP only once, but lots on meth and crack.

These guys can take more physical damage than would seem rationally possible. Guys with a broken leg running on it for example.

Mas Ayoob documented one such case in "Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun." NYPD encountered a heroin addict in an armed robbery. The armed assailant was shot at less than seven yards with 12 gauge "00" buck (9 pellets) in the chest. The subject then began running and was struck a second time with 9 more 00 pellets, this time in the back. The subject still did not go down.

Another officer firing a .38 Special, loaded with 148 grain wadcutters(!), struck the guy in the butt, breaking the pelvis. Only then did the guy go down.

But the fight still wasn't over. The offender pushed himself up and pointed his gun at one of the officers again. Again, 9 pellets of 00 buck struck the offender in the torso.

The offender dropped his gun, but continued to crawl away. He later died of his wounds.

My take-away on this one? Any drug can make an attacker almost superhuman, as this heroin addict absorbed 27 00-buck pellets plus a .38 round before he was no longer a threat. Considering a non-expanding 9mm round isn't much bigger than a 00-buck pellet, how many times would you have had to shoot this guy with a pistol before he was no longer a threat?

[Sefner]

Guns, the argument that I am making is that any human could also take that amount of punishment but in normally operating humans their neurological responses get in the way. Maybe Glenn can chime in on this. Like Xyas said, drugs effect the brain's normal functions such as pain reception and stress. If you remove a person's normal responses to extreme pain or bodily injury (what I call stress and what Xyas calls all his fancy medical words ) then their brain does not react in the manner that it should. It just keeps operating in its current, drug fueled state. That is what brings about these people that just seem to "keep going"; because their brains aren't there to tell them to knock that crap off.

[Double Naught Spy]

I appreciate you physicists noting that the guy must be dead...and y'all would know because you are physicists and know about things like energy transfer. However, people do get hit by trucks on the highway and live. The problem is not a simple one and not one you are likely to model very easily. It all has to do with things such as whether or not the person is hit and thrown, hit and goes over, has feet planted or is airborne when hit, and how directly hit.

A paramedic buddy of mine worked a fatality accident where a pickup hit two guys crossing the highway late at night. The guy that died apparently had his feet planted and was hit and driven to the ground violently. The 2nd man survived and was upright and talking to the driver when the paramedics arrived. He actually jumped into the air before being hit, caught the top of the hood and then glanced off the windshield (shattered) and went airborne up several feet above the truck. He had bruises nearly all over, but his head was not hit. His worst wounds were from impacting the pavement. He went to the hospital for Xrays, but had no broken bones.

This lady was hit by a big truck and lived.
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/r/18429840/detail.html

This guy shot himself in the head and then was hit by a truck on a highway and lived...
http://content.usatoday.com/communit...---and-lives/1

Check out these idiots. One got hit twice by vehicles on the highway and survived.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKJ8PVHw4GY

Not a truck, but a clear example of how being hit by a car at highway speeds can result in a less than lethal impact...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=eff_1204667347

[Therealkoop]

Thanks double

Like he said, its not a simple energy transfer equasion. And even then, the amount of damage a person can sustain before dying is always subjective.

And thats without PCP.

[Ray33]

I'm beginning to see a most unusual pattern with Ray33 here..

My sig is from a post he made in this thread:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...28#post4198528

What's this unusual pattern that you see? That I have an interest in how people under PCP and other drugs react to attack because I'm concerned about self-defense? Yes, then I would say there is a pattern because I want to ensure that I do everything to stop someone who means to do me harm.

[ZeSpectre]

we all know that some drugs such as PCP can make someone absorb more damage before going down

Well, we don't actually "all know that". What I know is that the human body has some really astounding mechanisms for survival and if the psychological part of the equation is removed (say by drugs such as PCP that make the user stop caring about pain and injury) then the body will frequently carry on for quite some time even though it has been dealt what is, ultimately, a mortal injury.

As for the Tractor-Trailer strike, unlikely but not impossible. My best friend's little brother was struck by an automobile moving at about 45mph. He was thrown about 7 feet into a cinderblock wall and struck hard enough to crack cinderblocks. He required multiple surgeries, had to re-learn how to talk, and will always be somewhat disabled on his left side, but he survived and lives a productive life. The toughness of the human body and modern medicine can do amazing things.

[markj]

PCP is an animal tranq used on pigs mostly. I have some in the barn used for horses. It makes them kinda woozy, in a dream like state. Cant imagine what it would do to a person.

In the movie pappillion they chewed coca leaves, made them not aware of the pain and let them run a lot longer.

[Double Naught Spy]

Overestimation of the effects of drugs? Rookie Linda Lawrence was the first female officer killed in Louisiana during a monumental fight between her and her training partner against a guy on cocaine. The perp was shot a total of 10 times including one near contact head shot that bifurcated the lobes of his brain and exited the rear of his skull and yet did not kill him. In fact, he went down and then got back up and continued the fight. Here is a link to the incident that is an interesting read. I have seen the recreation video of it that apparently was made with input (narration?) of the surviving officer (listed in the article).

http://books.google.com/books?id=krn...20duty&f=false

[Ray33]

^^^ If someone can survive long enough to keep fighting with a destroyed brain why isn't it possible for someone to keep fighting just because their head was cut off if they're motivated enough and on a powerful enough drug?

[5.56RifleGuy]

Separating the lobes of the brain is different than destroying it. Doctors do that as a corrective surgery to stop intense seizures in some patients.

Thinking that someone could continue fighting after being decapitated is foolish. The body gets is told what to do by the brain. Without the brain there is no deliberate action. There may be twitching and such, but none of it would be caused by anything other than chance.

[Teuthis]

The most powerfu, sustaining drug is arenalin. One can do marvelous feats when adrenalin is pumping through one's body. But there are limits. If the nervous system is shut down via trauma, even adrenalin fails. If damage acrues to the body that disrupts the structural integrity,one will be incapacitated.

I believe that what is intended in the legends is from people who are significantly affected by narcotic drugs and do not experience the extreme fear and physcological distruption that normally occurs with gunshot wounds. That state, combined with adrenalin can allow a wounded person to continue to funtion for a time where a more aware person would be experiencing fear and the need for help.

[Major Beef]

This is from another thread not too long ago:

"I heard a story about a guy on PCP who was beheaded with an axe and survived long enough to take the axe out of the executioner's hand and kill him with it."

[markj]

A lobotomy isnt a death thing. It will calm a person down and aid in siezures. The neighbors girl a twin had a lot of her brain taken out cause of siezues, she wasnt the sharpest knife in the drawer but she didnt suffer from them after that operation.

Brain injuries may not be lethal, many documented brain injury survivors out there if you look. I studied this after first wife had a brain anuryism and operation, the operation paralyzed her right side tho.