45 acp relevance idea

[CAPMJUSTICE]

So I know the new norm is that the 45 acp is outdated for basic self defense and, while effective, is outperformed, "overall", when capacity and the limitations of handguns are taken into account. And I have been accepting of this norm.......HOWEVER..... I was recently talking to a rural county sheriff whose department uses 45acp. I asked him why and if they were going to transition to 9mm in the near future. He said no, because he said while 9mm was fine for basic self defense, the rural areas he operates in have incidents with wild animals and the 45 functions better, in his experience, as a hybrid self defense/woods defense caliber, while still being a fairly common and affordable caliber. This got me thinking that, if this is true, the firearm community has done a great disservice to the novice shooter looking for information about the right firearms/calibers for them and their situation. Right now no one I read or watch is recommending the 45 as a possible option for rural people who might find value in a hybrid self defense/woods defense caliber that is still affordable and common. Everything and I mean EVERYTHING I read and watch is recomending 9mm for everyone in every situation no matter the circumstances. What do you think about this? Anyone here have similar experience to this sheriff I talked to?

[ballardw]

Location, location, location.

You'll find areas where rifles are carried because the problems are brown or kodiak bears and .44 might be marginal.

Others .357 and "up" are common.

[Cosmodragoon]

I understand the appeal. It's fairly common. It's chambered in several popular guns including the classic 1911. As noted, it's arguably a better choice for critters than 9mm. It's a big round with relatively light recoil compared to some other woodland choices.

The issue is precisely that it is a big round. It lends itself to bigger guns. That can be an issue for concealed carry, where smaller guns have an advantage. Smaller guns can also magnify the capacity restrictions.

I think the "9mm only" crowd is wrong. It's a great choice for a lot of people in a lot of circumstances. However, it's not the best choice for everyone in all circumstances. There can be real advantages to other calibers, from 5.7 to .357 Sig. Personally, I lean towards 10mm or .357 Sig with solids for dedicated woodland carry. I think .40 S&W can be a decent all-rounder in the right guns. I do tend to choose 9mm when I need a small CCW around town. I think it's a wonderful thing when you can choose the best tool for the circumstances.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by CAPMJUSTICE

So I know the new norm is that the 45 acp is outdated for basic self defense and, while effective, is outperformed, "overall", when capacity and the limitations of handguns are taken into account.

Heresy.

I don't pay attention to the ravings of lunatics.

[TunnelRat]

Idk if the firearm community has “done a great disservice” to anyone. If someone doesn’t mention defense against four legged creatures as part of their reason for carry then frankly I don’t make the assumption that their goal is such.

Where I am two legged threats are far more common and even the four legged threats typically aren’t bears. I’m not sure how dramatic of a difference a 9mm versus a 45ACP makes for a coyote, even for the hybrids we have around here. If I was genuinely concerned about larger predators I’d have a long gun handy.

Lastly, beyond the ballistic differences the reality is a 9mm typically holds more rounds and each round generally has less recoil. Some will argue the difference in recoil is exaggerated and I’m not opposed to that argument. My point is simply that while 9mm may not have the same mass as a 45ACP, if it’s easier for the person shooting that firearm to get repeated hits that may overshadow the reduced ballistic effect.


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[ThomasT]

I think the 1911 design is the finest semi auto ever built. It is easy to learn to shoot and handle. But I'm not all that sold on the 45acp round as an animal killer. A friend long ago asked me to kill a problem dog for him. I was new to the 45 and really liked that big bullet. I loaded it as hot as the books allowed. And it was so easy to shoot and get bullseye after bullseye.

So I shot this guys dog for him with my mighty 45 auto. The first shot was right behind the left leg. The dog went to jumping straight up in the air. Every time it touched down I put another bullet behind the leg. I shot 5 rounds behind the leg. The dog finally stood still and I put round number six through its neck and dropped it instantly.

I don't like telling this story and am ashamed of being a part of it. I think a high speed 9mm or even a 22 would have been a better choice. I would never recommend a 45acp for an animal killing round. At least not with the "they always fall to ball" FMJ loaded in it.

If you are rural and need a round for wild/stray animals pick a rifle of some sort. Or a 357 mag that you can shoot with frangible bullets.

[Old Stony]

I hunt feral hogs on a regular basis and am in the woods often in the dark. After experimenting with a lot of calibers over the years, I settled on a high capacity .40 S&W as my handgun when doing this stuff. I put a light on it and it has served me well.

[Sevens]

Yeah, I mean it’s fun to discuss gun stuff but I think this specific subject has us a little out in the weeds. For the sake of simplicity, I would posit that most folks who might have to use their carry gun for some manner of woods or wild animal defense might already be either a gun crank -OR- a rural, country kinda type who likely doesn’t need a gun magazine writer or big city gun shop counter jockey to force a 9mm on him in the first place.

I personally believe the BEST “truth” to take from the huge wave of “9mm is recommended” is much more the idea that 9mm in the year 2020 is simply more effective than 9mm was in 1987.

I don’t think that anyone (that matters) is saying that 9mm is as good or better than everything for every job; I just think that the current 9mm we have is the best 9mm we have ever had, and for the purpose of personal armed defense, the guns are extremely good and the options and choices are, like the 9mm, the best we have ever had in 9mm. EVER.

I was a card-carrying 9mm hater back in 1992 when I was shooting .357, .45 Auto and 10mm, and a lot of that came from gun magazines and AAR’s of high profile police and FBI blow-ups loaded with tactical failures. Today I can choose to carry anything and I’ve got great guns in an array of calibers and I’m carrying 9mm every day.

If I were fortunate enough to live in some gorgeous rough country, I’d probably go back to carrying 10mm like I did for years.

[Pistoler0]

I own both 9mm and 45 acp firearms, and my Glock 21 (grip chopped to Glock 30 size) is my EDC AIWB.

I do live in a rural area in Colorado (black bear and mountain lion in my property), and the advantage to the Glock 21 (and other 45 acp chambered firearms) is that it can readily fire .45 Super and .450 SMC. These last two rounds compare favorably in muzzle energy to 357 Magnum, and are very effective anti-critter medicine.

On the other hand, regular 45 acp rounds are very affordable, and so the 45 acp is a very versatile and practical caliber for me. My PCC is 45 acp as well, and that way I only have to worry about being well stocked in one pistol caliber.

Incidentally, with the ammo shortages that we are living through right now, I am noticing that it is a little easier in my area to find 45 acp ammo than 9mm. And the price difference (which is usually around 5 to 8 cents per round) has vanished.

I have also read that for those who need to use pistol shot shell for snakes, 45 acp works better than 9mm.

Bottom line I think that the 45 acp round is super versatile and a very good jack of all trades, although probably master of none. 9mm is probably a better round for strictly anti-personel role.

[Forte S+W]

Human bodies are made of more than just flesh, and bigger, heavier bullets yield more dramatic effects against bone, ask any hunter.

.45 ACP was already a proven manstopper back in the days when all you had to choose from was FMJ, and is even better now with modern JHP.

Last but not least, it you set aside all the statistics, all the numbers, and all the testing protocols, then ask yourself one simple question... If you were forced to choose between getting shot in the knee by a 9mm or a .45, which would you choose?
Realistically speaking, nobody is going to choose the bigger, heavier, more powerful .45 ACP. Because no matter how confident you are that 9mm Luger is an equally effective man-stopper compared to .45 ACP, when faced with something as simple as getting pierced by a .355"/9mm projectile or a .452"/11.5mm projectile, you'll always choose the smaller one.

@ThomasT
I know that I have to be misunderstanding you here, so please clarify this for me, because it sounds as if you were shooting a dog repeatedly in either the armpit or the buttocks and were surprised to see that this wasn't killing it.
Regardless, it you wanted to euthanize the dog in a humane fashion, then you should have shot it in the head, which would have almost certainly killed it instantly in a single shot had you hit it dead center.

[SIGSHR]

Who has decreed this "new norm" ? One of the ironies of the "best round for self defense" debates is the top contenders-38 Special, 9MM and 45ACP-are all over 100 years old.
IMHO it's the same criterion for an SD round as it is for dealing wild or rabid animals-neutralize the threat. I don't think humane or sporting notions apply.

[Kevin Rohrer]

So I know the new norm is that the 45 acp is outdated for basic self defense

Only by the clueless.

[stagpanther]

So I know the new norm is that the 45 acp is outdated for basic self defense

I have loads of 9mm guns--but it's the 45 acp that's on my nightstand.

[jmr40]

"Everybody says 45 is better than 9mm"
"People say 45 is better than 9mm"
"I've always heard 45 is better than 9mm"

We've all heard all of those lines and many more. But every time any scientific tests have been done, or data collected from real world shootings I've yet to find a single one that shows 45 significantly better.

With FMJ the numbers have shown 45 to work about 67% of the time, 9mm 65% with one shot. With the better HP loads 45 is around 90%, 9mm around 88%. Shoot twice and get good hits both times and both are near 100%.

Wild animal's. The data seems to show nothing special is needed and they all work better than conventional wisdom says.

https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/han...#axzz6YSHpbh70

They researched handgun effectiveness in stopping bear attacks. There were 73 cases altogether. 7 examples of 45 being used, 5 with 9mm. All 12 times the bear was stopped.

Does this mean 45 is outdated, no, but it doesn't prove it is any better either. I have several 45, 9mm and 10mm pistols. I use and trust them all. I choose them because I like those particular guns and shoot them well. Some just happen to be 45, others 9mm. But if there is a possibility of needing more rounds than the 45 will carry, I choose 9mm.

[44 AMP]

I don't like telling this story and am ashamed of being a part of it. I think a high speed 9mm or even a 22 would have been a better choice. I would never recommend a 45acp for an animal killing round. At least not with the "they always fall to ball" FMJ loaded in it.

I once saw a guy put 3 shots from a .357 Magnum carbine into a skunk without dispatching the animal.

Does that mean the guy was a bad shot? Or that he chose poorly and used the most unsuitable ammo?

one thing it doesn't mean is that the .357 is a poor cartridge, because someone failed with it.

The range was short, and he was shooting 158gr SWC. His first two shots went in too far aft. Literally, he gutshot the skunk, TWICE. His third shot was also too far back, but higher, and broke the spine.

At that point he asked ME to dispatch the skunk. So, I did, with what I was wearing at the time, a Ruger .45 Colt.

ONE shot through the HEAD was all it took.

Also, it was a hard cast 250gr SWC.

If you expect instant results, you need to hit them in the right spot with the right kind of bullet. Its not the fault of the cartridge if the shooter fails to do their job properly.

The Army set the specifications for the .45ACP to match the performance of the .45 Govt (aka .45 Schofield) which they had used for some time and knew it would not only stop people, it would put down horses if the shooter did their part.

It's no less effective today.

[tipoc]

So I know the new norm is that the 45 acp is outdated for basic self defense and, while effective, is outperformed, "overall", when capacity and the limitations of handguns are taken into account. And I have been accepting of this norm.......HOWEVER..... I was recently talking to a rural county sheriff whose department uses 45acp. I asked him why and if they were going to transition to 9mm in the near future. He said no, because he said while 9mm was fine for basic self defense, the rural areas he operates in have incidents with wild animals and the 45 functions better, in his experience, as a hybrid self defense/woods defense caliber, while still being a fairly common and affordable caliber. This got me thinking that, if this is true, the firearm community has done a great disservice to the novice shooter looking for information about the right firearms/calibers for them and their situation. Right now no one I read or watch is recommending the 45 as a possible option for rural people who might find value in a hybrid self defense/woods defense caliber that is still affordable and common. Everything and I mean EVERYTHING I read and watch is recomending 9mm for everyone in every situation no matter the circumstances. What do you think about this?

If it's true that everyone you speak to and read places the 9x19mm as the go to cartridge for all purposes then it's the case that you are unfortunately limiting yourself to who you read and listen to.

There are a good many fans of big bore handguns out there and on the internet. They are not quiet. They are willing to explain their choice whether in in semis or wheelguns.

John Taffin, the well respected gun writer, recently published another book on the 45 caliber. It takes up both long guns and short in that caliber.

Many persons make their choice of caliber based on what they want to do with the gun and it's purpose. Meaning deep concealment or more relaxed carry, open carry etc.

No one cartridge is great for all purposes.

tipoc

[Arrowhead37]

The 1911 is outdated and worthless as a defense weapon. Of course I know a deputy sheriff that got in a surprise gunfight with two criminals that shot first and he killed both of them. His weapon? One of those outdated, worthless 1911s.

[tipoc]

So I shot this guys dog for him with my mighty 45 auto. The first shot was right behind the left leg. The dog went to jumping straight up in the air. Every time it touched down I put another bullet behind the leg. I shot 5 rounds behind the leg. The dog finally stood still and I put round number six through its neck and dropped it instantly.

Shooting the dog right behind the left front leg sounds like an attempted shot to the heart or lung shot. Shooting an animal (or a human) in the heart does not always result in instant death or even an immediate stop. Deer have been known to run quite some distance with blown up hearts or lung shots from more powerful long guns.

A bullet to the base of the skull where the spine connects or through the ear to the brain would have been more useful and a .22 would have done the job very well. It would have done well whether the dog was a Pomeranian or a Bull Mastiff.

Elmer Keith has told the story of hunting Jack Rabbits with a 45 and how the round was unsuited for that purpose. It either hit bone and destroyed too much meat or simply punched straight through the animal leaving it to crawl into their burrows to die. A smaller 32 or 38 caliber worked better.

The dog story is a reminder, in a twisted way, that the right choice of caliber and shot placement are important. With a dog, a person can just walk up to the creature, pet it, put a 22 to it's head and pull the trigger. It will look at you with love and interest till the light goes out it's eyes.

tipoc

[ThomasT]

Close tipoc. But this was not a dog you walked up to. Not more than once anyway.

@ThomasT
I know that I have to be misunderstanding you here, so please clarify this for me, because it sounds as if you were shooting a dog repeatedly in either the armpit or the buttocks and were surprised to see that this wasn't killing it.
Regardless, it you wanted to euthanize the dog in a humane fashion, then you should have shot it in the head, which would have almost certainly killed it instantly in a single shot had you hit it dead center.

I shot just behind the left foreleg for a heart shot same as on a deer or other game. Do you really think I shot some dog in the ass 5 times? Wrong round, wrong bullet. The point was to the OP that for animal control there are better guns and rounds than the 45acp with FMJ bullets loaded in it.

And with that I am through in this thread. If you are going to shoot an animal do it in a way it doesn't suffer.

[44 AMP]

Everything and I mean EVERYTHING I read and watch is recomending 9mm for everyone in every situation no matter the circumstances. What do you think about this?

#1) Anyone recommending ANY one round for every situation no matter the circumstances is A) FANTASY, or B)a deliberate lie...usually in order to sell something.

#2) You need to find other things to watch and read. IF you wish to stick to fantasy, I recommend The Hobbit / Lord of the Rings, or even Star Wars...

Consider this,
The 9mm's popularity today is based on it's effectiveness today, which is based on the most modern ammunition. And, it is bolstered by the low cost of lesser quality/ lower performance ammo (ball, usually).

Now, how good is that 9mm when you can't get those new JHPs??, and WHERE is that cheap practice ammo?? (at $35 a box??? )

Sure, the current ammo shortage is only "temporary" and things will, eventually get back to "normal", except they won't,..not exactly the way it was before, and don't expect prices to drop until the panic goes away...

I'm and old guy, I don't care what is "relevent today", I got my stuff in my relevant yesterday, and surprise, it still works.

Also, concealed carry, and self defense are not the only things I use handguns for. In fact, they aren't the top of that list, for me.

.45s aren't relevant. Revolvers aren't relevant. NOTHING but this new 9mm I'm promoting are relevant!

Listen only to snake oil salesmen and all you buy is snake oil. Not saying snake oil doesn't work, it does, I don't have a single squeaky snake!

But other things ALSO work, and are still "relevant".

9mm for everything, no matter the circumstances? Show me the 9mm Luger that throws a 200gr+ bullet at 1600fps from a pistol....I do have a .45 that will do that, but, its not an ACP..

there is no "One ring to rule them all", except in fantasy....

[T. O'Heir]

"...the .45 ACP is outdated for basic self defense..." That's more about the mag capacity fad than anything else. I've always found the .45 to be far more pleasant to shoot than the 9mm. And a 1911A1 fits my hand where no DA 9mm comes even close.
"...incidents with wild animals..." A great deal depends on what critter and what bullet one is using. Ball(as in an FMJ) isn't the best thing for dealing with unruly fauna. Isn't great for the two legged varmints either. Dogs you shoot in the head.
The best handgun for any kind of shooting is the one you shoot best, regardless of its chambering.

[TunnelRat]

The point about ammo availability is a good one. For a few weeks now I’ve debated picking up a 40SW in addition to my 45ACP since I can find ammo more easily and cheaper in some cases. What I’ve noticed, however, is that I’m hardly the only person to figure this out and a lot of those pistols have also disappeared. Not only that, but ammunition for those pistols is starting to disappear too. My concern is that once the existing supply of 40SW and 45ACP starts to dry up, up how long it will take for that supply to catch up when manufacturers are likely prioritizing 9mm given the current demand? And once the supply does catch up will we see similar price differences that we saw before? I’ll be interested to see how it all plays out.


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[Mike38]

If I was asked on my opinion for a "commonly available" handgun cartridge that is good for both two and four legged critters, and dispatching wounded / sick animals such as deer hit by a car, my first pick would be the .357 magnum not the .45acp.

[zoo]

Shooting a dear in the head at the side of a road with a .357 round strikes me as overkill.

[COSteve]

I own and handload for a couple of 40s&ws, couple of 45acps, a couple .357mags, and a 10mm and if I were a rural LEO dept that needed to be concerned with any dangerous wildlife, a 45acp wouldn't even be a consideration.

While it's true that it still works just fine for thin skinned 2 legged threats, it fails miserably on thicker skinned, 4 legged threats. Penetration on thick skinned animals is poor for the 45acp so it's more of a liability than an asset.

Hands down, my choice would be a 10mm. Higher capacity, much higher velocity, significantly higher ME and with the polymer options available, all in a lighter package. Don't get me wrong, I own 2ea 1911s in 45acp and love to shoot them but any woods walking I do in the Rockies, I always take my 10mm.