Texas Deer Hunting - what went wrong?

[butch50]

Art:

I am not a biologist so what I say here has to be taken with a dose of salts.. What I know about deer is that they will change their range if the hunting pressure is intense enough and there is a place to get to that has less pressure. They will flow to the area of safety quite naturally. They will also move for food, but here in Texas it seems that food is not often a problem for them. A large pen jammed full up of hunters doesn't leave the deer any place to move to.

Defining a pen would be a definite tough one. Good luck to the politicians on that endeavor. For me the "idea" of being inside a tall fence that is there for one purpose - to keep the managed deer in and the wild deer out - doesn't sound like hunting and while I know that the larger a ranch is the larger the pen is, I also know that the larger the pen is the more hunters there will be crammed inside of it.

What does hunting look like 100 years in the future? No public land, all managed deer herds on fenced in hunting reserves, and you pay more for shooting deer out of the herds that have better genetics. Genes that have been manipulated to create "super deer". Perhaps there be a computerized system that evaluates the primary genetic code of the different deer herds and you have to bid against other "hunters" based on the value of the genetic code?

Will the average Texas buck that is shot 100 years from now weigh 200 pounds and have a 12 point rack and cost the hunter $10,000? Will the super deer carry imbedded micro-chips to guard against theft and to track them with?

Will that be called hunting? Sounds ridiculous I know, but just look at what changes that have come about in the past 50 years here. What was hunting like in Texas 50 years ago?

If I was still around 100 years from now I would probably be hunting in the small unfenced areas between the high fence ranches for those rare and tiny little 100 pound 6 point bucks that were the last of the direct descendants of the original wild Texas deer.

[20cows]

but here in Texas it seems that food is not often a problem for them.

It was in the drought that just ended for us (for some, it still hasn,t) two years ago. Along a 21 mile stretch of road near here there were 26 deer carcasses, each representing a deer eating the only grass it could find (in the bar ditch)and meeting up with a car along the way (one of them being mine).

[Art Eatman]

I note sorta casually that the only money for wildlife comes from license fees and the taxes on guns'n'such. TP&WD has the game wardens, of course. It has biological research going on in many locations around the state in the various wildlife reserves such as Black Gap and Elephant Mountain and others. It collates information collected by interested landowners. For deer, this information is then disseminated via seminars held regularly around the state. The overall purpose is that there be a healthy deer herd throughout all suitable habitat, statewide.

I don't know how much of the habitat is behind a high fence. I'd bet from my travels around the state that it's miniscule and not worth worrying about.

Given how many areas in central Texas are way overpopulated, I don't want to see any legislation or rule that makes it more difficult for Joe Dumbhunt to "catch a deer".

IMO, the overall system has worked fairly well for a heckuva long time. It's nowhere near broke.

I've watched TP&WD fairly closely for some 30 years. They're not the fastest moving bunch in the world about changes in approaches to game management, but overall they do a pretty good job. I appreciate their efforts to rely more on science and less on politics as they set seasons and bag limits.

One thing for sure, in my own opinion: I'd rather see a high-fenced ranch make a ton of money off feeder-hunters than to see it broken up into "ranchettes" and have a bunch of rooftops where once was a large area of legally-hunted wildlife. The big problem for all wildlife is that the landowner can make a lot more money off of condos than cows.

Art

[20cows]

The big problem for all wildlife is that the landowner can make a lot more money off of condos than cows.

That is the scary truth! So far, my place is far enough from the urban sprawl, that there has not been any "development" too near. I just hope it stays that way.

[Art Eatman]

20cows, I grew up at what's now 9000 Manchaca Road in Austin. In WW II the area was 5 miles out from the city limits on a narrow county road. All small ranches and farms, mostly in the low hundreds of acres.

I moved back there in 1967, and ran some cows on the "old family place" as well as working in town--at that time a 13-minute commute.

The last deer I killed there was in 1973. We were "attacked" by Castlewood Forest subdivision, with cars killing more deer than I.

School taxes of $34/acre/year sez to me, "Sell!" and not being stupid, in 1979 I did. (My grandfather had paid $24/acre in 1939 to buy the place. A bit of irony, there.)

Nowadays, the intersection of Manchaca Road and Slaughter Lane is totally surrounded by all manner of houses and shopping centers...

I voted with my feet and moved to Terlingua.

, Art

[20cows]

Art,

Do you think you moved far enough out to avoid the coming urban sprall from Lajitas?

Our "old family place" has been ours since 1889. I really want it to stay that way.

20c

[Art Eatman]

Well, if you hunt up how long ago the Pridgens started farming/ranching around Thomaston (south of Cuero), 1899 is sorta new. I guess I'm starting my own "old family place". What the heck, I'm old, anyhow.

La-hideous sorta keeps to itself, over there. All those millionaires ain't interested in us Plebes. Hard to believe anybody is dumb enough to stick $75 million into a hole-in-the-wall right on the Rio. http://www.lajitas.com is the URL if you want to see stupidity in action...

Most of the "newbies" stay fairly close to the pavement and the electricity, so I still have my back-country to rat around in for my huntin'. Or I can get lazy and stake out my trash pit.

Art

[20cows]

1889 was when this place was acquired (great grandpa had just arrived from Alabama). Other multiple-greats were here in 1835. I think you and I are both proud of deep Texas roots.

Your assessment of Lajitas matches my observations. We spend a lot of time between Marfa and Alpine and venture into your neighborhood periodically.

20c

[jim walker]

I hunt over feeders in the Texas hill country but I have also shot deer and elk in Colorado. I really don't see alot of difference. Whether in a blind or sitting on a ridge, I was shooting an animal that didn't know I was there and they end up the same way in Colorado or Texas... in the freezer, on the wall, ect....

[butch50]

Jim - the difference is in the chase. If you are happy shooting deer that have been trained to come to you, then so be it. Lots of folks are happy doing that.

I can't see it myself though. Might as well go shoot goats in a pen.

Just my humble, if irritating, opinion.

[Art Eatman]

Well, Butch, I reckon a lot of us like cross-country hunting, or playing sneaky-snake in suitable country. To me, though, the deal is the proverbial "different strokes for different folks", and what others do never has seemed to me to be any of my business.

As far as type of fencing, or private/public property, or who owns the wildlife, I just don't see it as being important. So far, the Texas system has worked to let lots of people kill lots of deer.

Really, I see two problems: For a lot of western Texas, the mule deer herd is too water-limited while there seems to be adequate food in their habitat. A lactating doe generally remains within a mile of a water source, which limits her territory. The other problem is in CenTex, where my observations have been that there are just too many deer for the habitat, mostly due to under-hunting by whatever means. As near as I can tell, it's purely a private-sector and sociological solution--if anything ever does happen...

FWIW, Art

[butch50]

I do realize that there are many different ways to hunt, and most of them are legitimate. But there are ways to hunt that are legitimate that aren't truly sporting, which is all that I am trying to say. If you hunt over a mechanical feeder and shoot deer that have been conditioned to show up at that spot at a specific time it just doesn't fall in the category of hunting as I see it. But if you do shoot deer that way and feel good about it, then more power to you I guess. It is definitely legal and even customary here in Texas.

Hypothetically speaking: I guess if spotlighting deer at night was legal and customary I would get much the same arguments from the people who had grown used to doing that too.

I have no knowledge of mule deer so won't speak to that at all - never hunted them but would like to some day. They look to be a challenge.

I know what you mean about the abundance of deer in the hill country, I have seen herds of them down there. I saw deer well inside the city limits of Kerrville during daylight hours eating out of flowerbeds. But doesn't it seem reasonable that if the deer were over-populated in those counties, that TPWD would open up the bag limit and expand the season to reduce the herds? Have they ever done that?

[Art Eatman]

Butch, don't know if you've read about the infestation of deer at Lakeway, but it's a good object lesson about the politics of Bambi. TP&WD tries to liberalize the limits and other regs in some areas, but the big problem in places like Kerrville is access to any hunting grounds at all. Bambi-lovers won't allow hunting: "Shoot them? No! I like to *watch* MY deer!"

A lot of this over-population stems from the chopping up of the land into ranchettes. Elk and mule deer aren't nearly as sociable as the white tail when it comes to living around people.

The Legislature authorized County Commissioners to outlaw firing any gun on tracts of ten acres or less. Bandera County has done this, along with a few others. With no predators besides people, you can imagine what this sort of thing does to the deer herd.

Art

[butch50]

That's a scary thought. That could lead to mass deer starvations before long.

[Art Eatman]

I moved back to Austin in 1963 after booming around the world for a dozen years or so. 1963 was one of the drier years on record, other than 1956. The winter was rather cold, comparatively, as well as dry.

TP&WD estimated that in Llano, Mason and Brady Counties, the hunter deer kill for the '63 season was some 15,000 deer. The winter kill was some 17,000.

Art

[desert-cat]

This argument about regional hunting techniques is as byzantine as arguing that rice should be eaten only in China and using the sticks.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I still remember that the former U.S.S.R. and the satellite countries walked away from communism over ten years ago, after their economies collapsed. I have known quite a few emigres from those countries, and they all recall the nightmare it was surviving (starving) in the largest experiment of non-private - i.e., public - property of land.

Closer to home, the large influx of immigrants from Mexico - as well as the desperate attempts of Cuban people to leave their "no private property" paradise - are also consequences of an ideological and political commitment against private property of land.

Here in Arizona, over 75% is public land, but the best hunting is precisely in those areas with restricted access: Indian reservations, the few private ranches with large tracts of deeded land, wilderness areas where no vehicles are allowed and public lands with access controlled by private landowners,.

Hunting is NOT for bringing food to the table anymore. Nowadays, there are cheaper foods than venison, so nobody has to hunt to feed a family; worst case, Uncle Sam will provide food stamps and charitable organizations will take care of those unable - or unwilling - to work.

Absolutely nobody has to travel to hunt in Texas - or in any other particular State. Let the Texas people do things their way and those who don't like it, go - or move - elsewhere

[butch50]

Hunting is NOT for bringing food to the table anymore. Nowadays, there are cheaper foods than venison, so nobody has to hunt to feed a family;

For 99.99999999% of us that is true, although there are still some few people who hunt for food. For food hunting anything goes in my opinion.

For sport hunting though: It doesn't matter if you are on public or private property - shooting deer that you have trained to show up at a specific spot at a specific time isn't hunting - Hell just think of the definition of Hunt - it means to look for something that you don't know where it is -

If the folks who shoot deer over a mechanized timed feeder would call it deer shooting instead I would leave it alone.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I still remember that the former U.S.S.R. and the satellite countries walked away from communism over ten years ago, after their economies collapsed. I have known quite a few emigres from those countries, and they all recall the nightmare it was surviving (starving) in the largest experiment of non-private - i.e., public - property of land.

Never once have I suggested that we change the method of land ownership in Texas - why did you throw this out then?

[desert-cat]

Because deer - and other wildlife - do not live in an abstract realm. They are to be found either on government-owned land or in private property.

Just for the sake of the analogy, let's assume that instead of deer we were talking about a feral dog that went away from home. This dog gets killed after eating deer, rabbits, javelinas, chicken, calves, goats, etc. Through the tag we can trace back who the owner is. It is only fair that the dog owner reimburses the livestock owner for the livestock killed. Should the owner of the game species look the other way and not demand a monetary compensation for the wildlife the dog ate?

From a different perspective, let's agree that animals - livestock and wildlife - sharing the open range harvest the regrowth of vegetation and drink the same water. Cattle produce steaks and deer produce antlers; both steaks and antlers are goods sought by consumers in a free market economy.

If the cattle is pushed or lured into a neighbor's pasture - and even if they went there by themselves - to eat the grass and drink the water, it is an accepted legal and commercial practice to make the cattle owner pay for his/her livestock helping themselves to the neighbor's resources. Uncle Sam charges for grazing livestock in public lands, the same way that a private rancher would charge you to keep a cow or a horse in his/her ranch.

Then, reason dictates that the only logical conclusion is that it is only fair that the owner of the wildlife - i.e., the public at large - reimburses the landowner for the very same resources - water and the regrowth of vegetation - consumed by the both game and non-game species.

[butch50]

Desert Cat: If you have a point in there somewhere I couldn't find it.

What, exactly, are you trying to say?

[PinnedAndRecessed]

My .02: It (hunting with feeders) is no less ethical than paying someone else to kill for us. I go to the store and buy meat. Someone else has killed that meat. People claim such is unethical. I say the animal is going to die, anyway. Who cares who does the killing.

Same with the above. If hunting with feeders floats your boat then fine. It's not like hunting in the old days but who has time for that?

If ethics is an issue in killing animals then to be consistent we all should go vegetarian. I doubt we're going vegetarian so the issue of hunting over feeders becomes moot. As long as the animal is harvested in the most humane fashion possible I don't see the problem.

I wonder what the bow and arrow crowd said when hunters showed up with guns? I wonder what the iron sight crowd said when hunters showed up with scopes? It becomes a never-ending conundrum.

However, given the above parameters, viz., avg. shot within 50 yards, my guess is the animal is harvested cleanly, quickly, and relatively painlessly.
I probably wouldn't do it but have no objection to those who do.

But then again, that's just my .02.

[butch50]

I go to the store and buy meat. Someone else has killed that meat. People claim such is unethical. I say the animal is going to die, anyway. Who cares who does the killing.

My point is not that it is more humane or inhumane to hunt over a feeder. It's that you are training wild animals to arrive at a specific place at a specific time so that you don't have to bother going looking for them.

What I am saying is that the timed feeder takes something vital and important away from the sport of hunting. It relegates hunting down to something far less.

[PinnedAndRecessed]

Yes, Butch, I understand your concern. It is not a "hunt" in the traditional sense. It's not even a "hunt" since the term itself implies the "hunter" actually goes out into the wilds and finds the game. That's why it's called a "hunt."

But if shooters want to shoot quasi-domesticated game over a feeder, as long as they dispatch the animal humanely, I have no objections. You're right. It is not "hunting." But that's a matter of semantics.

So we maybe need to call it something else. Shooting semi-domesticated animals over a feeder will now be in a whole different category. Maybe we could place it into the same category as a rancher who kills a beef cow with a well-placed 22?

Or, since it's baiting, maybe we should call it "bait." "Where are you going today?" "I'm going baiting." "What's that?" "That's where you bait the deer to come to you. It's easier than hunting."

Then folks have a choice. They can go on a hunt. Or they can go on a bait.

[butch50]

Or, since it's baiting, maybe we should call it "bait." "Where are you going today?" "I'm going baiting." "What's that?" "That's where you bait the deer to come to you. It's easier than hunting."

That would at least be semantically honest.

[Eghad]

I would actually be afraid to walk out in the woods tracking game these days........

[1stSSPZ]

Well, I grew up hunting deer down around San Angelo, Texas. Thicker than rabbits, always have been. Even then, I guess we were to poor to pay to hunt on someone elses land, and we ate deer meat ALL the time! Never have hunted around a feeder though. Hell, I thought the only way to shoot deer was out of the back of a moving '70 F-100 Ford pickup!