magnum primers

Gator · May 14, 2001, 09:28 AM

O.K. it’s not the biggest mistake of my life. But it’s a good one.

My reloading buddy and I managed to put magnum primers in our .40 SW brass. We stopped and promptly corrected this issue. We didn’t want to make any mistakes. We’ve made close to 6,000 rounds in three years and have all of our fingers.

We checked all our reloading books and none of them mentioned what could happen with a magnum primer paced in a .40 SW case.

We figured we would err on the side of caution.

What’s the deal? What could have happened if anything?

Gator

Southla1 · May 14, 2001, 11:16 AM

A lot of your question depends on the load you are going to use. If its a hot load already you may be well overpressured. If its a warm load it will then be in the hot category. If it is a mild load you are shooting it is probably ok. So much depends on powder type, bullet weight, case volume, bullet design, chamber dimensions, bore diameter, etc. All of these things are intermixed in determining pressure that it is difficult to say how much difference a hotter primer will make. It will make some for sure. I would choose a light load and try a few it they are ok then go from there.

JohnK · May 14, 2001, 01:48 PM

Southla1 is right, using magnum primers will make your loads hotter. The general rule that I've always heard is using a magnum primer is like adding 1 more grain of powder. That rule should hold for calibers like the 38 special and up, those with larger case capacitys. I'd think in the 40 S&W it would be like adding at least 1-1.5 gr.

As Southla1 said pick a light load and work up slowly.

John
http://www.handloads.com

PKN · May 14, 2001, 09:46 PM

It's been discussed before and I doubt it's like adding a whole grain of powder. I currently use rifle primers in my 40 loads without any pressure problems. I previously used magnum primers. It's been safe for roughly 5-6k rounds in a little under a years time. It's not an unusual practice in IPSC either. I don't reccomend this as an everyday matter of course for plinking loads. But I also don't belive it's an imediate invitation to loosing fingers.

JohnK · May 14, 2001, 11:08 PM

Why do you use rifle primers in a 40? It's not that high pressure of a round and doesn't use large powder charges that would need a rifle primer to ignite.

Do you load for handguns and rifles and just want to keep one kind on hand?

John
http://www.handloads.com

WESHOOT2 · May 15, 2001, 07:36 AM

You know the 40 can be an extremely high-pressure round, based on OAL.

PKN · May 15, 2001, 08:26 AM

Actually, I could probably do away with the rifle primers now, but old habbits die hard. I started using magnum and rifle primers when I was using an overcharge of straight Clays to make major.

JohnK · May 15, 2001, 11:25 AM

The 40 might be high pressure compared to a 38 Special but it's no higher than a 9mm and certainly not high pressure compared to a 454 or rifle rounds which are loaded to nearly double the pressure of the 40 S&W. It's not even as high pressure as a 357 magnum and those don't require magnum primers for the vast majority of loads.

If you're seeing rifle levels of pressure in a 40 S&W either something is very wrong OR you're deliberately overloading it for some reason (such as the IPSC situation). You would only need magnum/rifle primers in the second scenario, not as a patch to the first one. Any caliber can be loaded to extreme pressures, especially if you have a barrel with a fully supported chamber, that doesn't mean it should be recommended. If you have an argument to counter this I'm open to hear it, I certainly don't claim to be omniscient.

PKN, that is one reason I thought of after posting that you might be using magnum/rifle primers, overcharged IPSC handloads, but massive overcharges aren't required in the 40 S&W to make major like they are in the 9mm or 38 Super using light bullets, at least not according to the load data from Alliant and Hodgdon.

John
http://www.handloads.com

Poodleshooter · May 15, 2001, 11:27 AM

JohnK: Using rifle primers is sort of a crude method of being able to up your pressures somewhat. It's not the hotter flame that you want, it's the thicker primer cup that resists primer flattening and primer blowthroughs. Of course, if the cartridge can't vent excess pressure through your primer cup, it'll just blow the case!

UltimaSE · May 15, 2001, 03:52 PM

I want to make sure about something before I start loading .357. At the gunshow where I got everything I had the choice between small pistol mag primers and normal small primers. When I asked what the difference was the guy there told me that there really wasn't much of a difference, only that if you downloaded the round a bit that you'd see a significant loss in velocity. Since they were out of normal small pistol primers I went ahead and picked up 5,000 mag small pistol primers.

Now I'm going to be loading .357 mag for my gf who wants pretty hot loads already (I know I will work my way up) but I'd like a standard baseline that I can start with. Should I just start with the baseline that's set forth in the manuals? Or should I take 1 grain off?

Also I will be loading mainly with 231 and bluedot, anyone have any pet loads for a 158 grain in .357 and a 200 grain in .45 acp?

Thanks in advance,
UltimaSE

Gator · May 16, 2001, 07:31 AM

Thanks for the information guys. I've been reading TFL for almost a year and learned a lot.

All my books pretty much said to use magnum primers only in cases that are magnum.

The two loads we planned on loading are:

5.8 grains of Winchester Superfield or
4.7 grains of Winchester 231.

Since we have 180 grain JHP rounds for loading we made the right choice in backing out the magnum primers to replace them with the right ones.

Gator

Southla1 · May 16, 2001, 10:09 PM

UltimaSE, depending on the type of powder used in your .357 you may NEED the magnum primers. Two that immediatly come to mind are 2400 and H110. A decent length barrel and a heavy bullet call for powders such as these 2.

UltimaSE · May 17, 2001, 01:13 AM

actually I was looking for some h110, but at the show they only had bluedot and 231 really avaliable. I don't remember seeing anything that said that I had to use mag primers for either. I was just wondering what I should do in terms of a starting baseline with the mag primers. Should I just start with the recommended baseline or should I adjust the baseline to take the mag primers into account.

UltimaSE

**Mal H** · May 17, 2001, 04:47 AM

UltimaSE - IMO you can safely start at the listed minimums for those two powders and use a magnum primer. Personally, I wouldn't reduce the minimum powder charge because you are using a magnum primer. As you work up the load and add a little powder, as always, you should be looking for signs of excessive pressure (expanded web, overly flattened primers, etc.) Keep in mind that your maximum powder weight will most likely be less than the listed weight for powders which don't normally require a magnum primer. However, looking in Speer #12, I see that they list a few loads of W231 using a magnum primer for the .357M - go figure.

Patrick Graham · May 17, 2001, 06:08 AM

Mal
Funny you should mention the speer manual suggesting magnum primers for 231 in 357 mag.

Last month I wanted to use up some of my 231 so I loaded up some 357 with 8.6 gr of 231, and 125 gr jhp, the minimum charge in my old speer #10 manual. I used WSP primers and the load worked out just great, not too hot, not too nasty. When I read your post I rechecked the manual and sure enough they have a splat in front of the 8.6 gr of 231 denoting the use of cci 550 magnum primers. In the load data for the 110 gr JHP just above they don't suggest magnum primers with 231.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............

**Mal H** · May 17, 2001, 05:02 PM

They denoted magnum primers for the 140 JHP with 231 but not the 158 JHP in #12. ??

They may be wrong, but at least they're inconsistent!

[Edited by Mal H on 05-17-2001 at 10:15 PM]

May 14, 2001, 09:46 PM	#4
PKN Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2000 Location: VA Posts: 132	Magnum primers in 40... It's been discussed before and I doubt it's like adding a whole grain of powder. I currently use rifle primers in my 40 loads without any pressure problems. I previously used magnum primers. It's been safe for roughly 5-6k rounds in a little under a years time. It's not an unusual practice in IPSC either. I don't reccomend this as an everyday matter of course for plinking loads. But I also don't belive it's an imediate invitation to loosing fingers.

May 15, 2001, 07:36 AM	#6
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	JohnK You know the 40 can be an extremely high-pressure round, based on OAL. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

May 16, 2001, 07:31 AM	#11
Gator Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Location: Gainesville Posts: 141	Back to the .40 magnum primers Thanks for the information guys. I've been reading TFL for almost a year and learned a lot. All my books pretty much said to use magnum primers only in cases that are magnum. The two loads we planned on loading are: 5.8 grains of Winchester Superfield or 4.7 grains of Winchester 231. Since we have 180 grain JHP rounds for loading we made the right choice in backing out the magnum primers to replace them with the right ones. Gator

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May 14, 2001, 09:28 AM	#1
Gator Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Location: Gainesville Posts: 141	O.K. it’s not the biggest mistake of my life. But it’s a good one. My reloading buddy and I managed to put magnum primers in our .40 SW brass. We stopped and promptly corrected this issue. We didn’t want to make any mistakes. We’ve made close to 6,000 rounds in three years and have all of our fingers. We checked all our reloading books and none of them mentioned what could happen with a magnum primer paced in a .40 SW case. We figured we would err on the side of caution. What’s the deal? What could have happened if anything? Gator

May 14, 2001, 11:16 AM	#2
Southla1 Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 19, 2000 Location: Jeanerette, La. Near the Posts: 1,999	A lot of your question depends on the load you are going to use. If its a hot load already you may be well overpressured. If its a warm load it will then be in the hot category. If it is a mild load you are shooting it is probably ok. So much depends on powder type, bullet weight, case volume, bullet design, chamber dimensions, bore diameter, etc. All of these things are intermixed in determining pressure that it is difficult to say how much difference a hotter primer will make. It will make some for sure. I would choose a light load and try a few it they are ok then go from there.

May 14, 2001, 01:48 PM	#3
JohnK Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2001 Location: Duvall, Wa Posts: 552	Southla1 is right, using magnum primers will make your loads hotter. The general rule that I've always heard is using a magnum primer is like adding 1 more grain of powder. That rule should hold for calibers like the 38 special and up, those with larger case capacitys. I'd think in the 40 S&W it would be like adding at least 1-1.5 gr. As Southla1 said pick a light load and work up slowly. John http://www.handloads.com

May 14, 2001, 11:08 PM	#5
JohnK Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2001 Location: Duvall, Wa Posts: 552	Why do you use rifle primers in a 40? It's not that high pressure of a round and doesn't use large powder charges that would need a rifle primer to ignite. Do you load for handguns and rifles and just want to keep one kind on hand? John http://www.handloads.com

May 15, 2001, 08:26 AM	#7
PKN Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2000 Location: VA Posts: 132	Actually, I could probably do away with the rifle primers now, but old habbits die hard. I started using magnum and rifle primers when I was using an overcharge of straight Clays to make major.

May 15, 2001, 11:25 AM	#8
JohnK Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2001 Location: Duvall, Wa Posts: 552	The 40 might be high pressure compared to a 38 Special but it's no higher than a 9mm and certainly not high pressure compared to a 454 or rifle rounds which are loaded to nearly double the pressure of the 40 S&W. It's not even as high pressure as a 357 magnum and those don't require magnum primers for the vast majority of loads. If you're seeing rifle levels of pressure in a 40 S&W either something is very wrong OR you're deliberately overloading it for some reason (such as the IPSC situation). You would only need magnum/rifle primers in the second scenario, not as a patch to the first one. Any caliber can be loaded to extreme pressures, especially if you have a barrel with a fully supported chamber, that doesn't mean it should be recommended. If you have an argument to counter this I'm open to hear it, I certainly don't claim to be omniscient. PKN, that is one reason I thought of after posting that you might be using magnum/rifle primers, overcharged IPSC handloads, but massive overcharges aren't required in the 40 S&W to make major like they are in the 9mm or 38 Super using light bullets, at least not according to the load data from Alliant and Hodgdon. John http://www.handloads.com

May 15, 2001, 11:27 AM	#9
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	JohnK: Using rifle primers is sort of a crude method of being able to up your pressures somewhat. It's not the hotter flame that you want, it's the thicker primer cup that resists primer flattening and primer blowthroughs. Of course, if the cartridge can't vent excess pressure through your primer cup, it'll just blow the case!

May 15, 2001, 03:52 PM	#10
UltimaSE Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2000 Posts: 141	I want to make sure about something before I start loading .357. At the gunshow where I got everything I had the choice between small pistol mag primers and normal small primers. When I asked what the difference was the guy there told me that there really wasn't much of a difference, only that if you downloaded the round a bit that you'd see a significant loss in velocity. Since they were out of normal small pistol primers I went ahead and picked up 5,000 mag small pistol primers. Now I'm going to be loading .357 mag for my gf who wants pretty hot loads already (I know I will work my way up) but I'd like a standard baseline that I can start with. Should I just start with the baseline that's set forth in the manuals? Or should I take 1 grain off? Also I will be loading mainly with 231 and bluedot, anyone have any pet loads for a 158 grain in .357 and a 200 grain in .45 acp? Thanks in advance, UltimaSE

May 16, 2001, 10:09 PM	#12
Southla1 Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 19, 2000 Location: Jeanerette, La. Near the Posts: 1,999	UltimaSE, depending on the type of powder used in your .357 you may NEED the magnum primers. Two that immediatly come to mind are 2400 and H110. A decent length barrel and a heavy bullet call for powders such as these 2.

May 17, 2001, 01:13 AM	#13
UltimaSE Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2000 Posts: 141	actually I was looking for some h110, but at the show they only had bluedot and 231 really avaliable. I don't remember seeing anything that said that I had to use mag primers for either. I was just wondering what I should do in terms of a starting baseline with the mag primers. Should I just start with the recommended baseline or should I adjust the baseline to take the mag primers into account. UltimaSE

May 17, 2001, 04:47 AM	#14
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,947	UltimaSE - IMO you can safely start at the listed minimums for those two powders and use a magnum primer. Personally, I wouldn't reduce the minimum powder charge because you are using a magnum primer. As you work up the load and add a little powder, as always, you should be looking for signs of excessive pressure (expanded web, overly flattened primers, etc.) Keep in mind that your maximum powder weight will most likely be less than the listed weight for powders which don't normally require a magnum primer. However, looking in Speer #12, I see that they list a few loads of W231 using a magnum primer for the .357M - go figure.

May 17, 2001, 06:08 AM	#15
Patrick Graham Junior member Join Date: January 18, 1999 Location: Kokomo, Indiana USA Posts: 674	Mal Funny you should mention the speer manual suggesting magnum primers for 231 in 357 mag. Last month I wanted to use up some of my 231 so I loaded up some 357 with 8.6 gr of 231, and 125 gr jhp, the minimum charge in my old speer #10 manual. I used WSP primers and the load worked out just great, not too hot, not too nasty. When I read your post I rechecked the manual and sure enough they have a splat in front of the 8.6 gr of 231 denoting the use of cci 550 magnum primers. In the load data for the 110 gr JHP just above they don't suggest magnum primers with 231. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............

May 17, 2001, 05:02 PM	#16
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,947	They denoted magnum primers for the 140 JHP with 231 but not the 158 JHP in #12. ?? They may be wrong, but at least they're inconsistent! [Edited by Mal H on 05-17-2001 at 10:15 PM]