Police shoot out close to home - Page 2

Ticman · November 28, 2009, 08:24 PM

There have been cases were a CWP holder has saved a Cop who was about to be killed. Of course there have also been plain clothes Cop who was killed by uniformed Cops thinking the plain clothed officer was the bad guy.

I would think it best to stay back away from the action unless you have no choice. But, here again I'm not sure I could stand by and watch and cop be executed either. (I have family in law enforcement) I hope I never have to make that choice. Heck, I hope I never have to pull my gun.

Croz · November 28, 2009, 10:00 PM

I think the reality for everyone is that it's a judgement call. If I'm in downtown Tampa and a police gunfight erupts near me, I'm certainly not going to take a position behind the car with the officers and start shooting.

However, if I'm hunkered down, staying safe and see that the officer is now completely out of ammo, and the BG is walking up to him to execute him? I'm probably taking the shot. Will I get arrested? Probably not. Will I get sued? Probably. Can I live with myself watching a police officer get executed while I have the means to intervene? Certainly not.

I agree with everyone that says that a CCW badge is a really bad idea, and that I'm not going to get involved in a shootout like I'm a wannabe LEO. But I can't say that I would never get involved under any circumstances.

whip1 · November 28, 2009, 10:16 PM

I can't think of any reason to get involved.

Dwight55 · November 28, 2009, 10:17 PM

To me, . . . this is one of those scenarios that no one ever wants to be in, . . . and can only be answered when the chips start falling.

I think Glenn Dee summed the whole thing up pretty well: "This is truely a nightmare scenario. An all round no win situation. If you choose to get involved. "

My worst fear would to have done nothing, and by doing so, allowed a bg to take out a police officer. That would be hard for me to sleep on.

May God bless,
Dwight

ChileVerde1 · November 29, 2009, 12:02 AM

Former cop and current federal LEO. Just wanted to add one thing and I believe this is common sense. If any of you see me or any other brothers in Blue (or green for me now) and were getting our buts handed to us in a fight where it looks like our life may be in danger, and this has happened, as far as I'm concerned feel free to help.

I've had, and others I know have had, very good experiences with good samaritans helping out in fights, etc... with unruly subjects. It really is a judgement call just use common sense! Is the Officer unconcious, did he get his weapon taken away, are they fighting for his weapon, is he calling for help, is he being overpowered...? If a guy has my weapon or has me pinned down or outgunned and there's no backup in sight, please by all means do your worst. I'll not think ill of you. Just my 2 cents!

sixxgunnernick · November 29, 2009, 12:45 AM

Nothing to do with wanna be leo..more of identity. Don't wanna be shot by leo..thanks

cracked91 · November 29, 2009, 03:24 AM

Ok. . . first of all, a CCW badge is an oxymoron.

You are concealing so people won't know you have a gun, yet you wear a badge that lets people know you have a gun? If you want people to think your some kind of officer or defender of justice just wear a navy blue shirt tucked in and open carry.

Second of all, in the single officer in trouble situation, I think I would assist, if possible, and count on God to keep the officer from shooting me. Unless you are pointing the gun at the officer or an unarmed citizen though you should not be shot, by the officer. . . . legally. A good idea? Probably not, but sometimes you just have to go with that gut feeling.

You should get the police report for the shootout near your house when it is submitted. In AZ at least they are public information and all you have to do is call and ask for a copy. It would have good info on who fired first, calibers, gun types, injuries and locations.

sixxgunnernick · November 29, 2009, 06:33 AM

Don't wear it on your shirt pocket..keep it out of plain view until you need to IDENTIFY YOURSELF AS A C.C.W. CITIZEN. Thats better than flashing your gun..so thats not moronic. Or is it oxymoron?

**OldMarksman** · November 29, 2009, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Don't wear it [CCW "badge"] on your shirt pocket..keep it out of plain view until you need to IDENTIFY YOURSELF AS A C.C.W. CITIZEN.

Just how does it serve you at that point?

Anyone can buy one-it cannot serve any real purpose of identification
No one will be able to see what it is, nor will they have any idea of its supposed significance, which is known only to you.
The fact that you have a CCW permit is at that point completely irrelevant to the situation at hand.

threegun · November 29, 2009, 08:35 AM

I have carried a concealed CCP badge for almost 18 years now. I'm not a wannabe cop in fact I have never intervened in a crime since getting my permit. I have no intentions of acting as law enforcement with or without a badge. So right off the top the two biggest arguments against carrying a badge are off the table.

Now the one and only reason that I carry a badge is to allow responding officers to identify me as the good guy. You naysayers can do as you see fit however everyone knows that off duty/plain clothes law enforcement use a badge as ID. Combined with non threatening gun handling it will almost always cause pause from responding LE. According to LE that I have asked, if they see a badge they don't shoot (unless you point at them).

So for me if I ever have had to use my weapon and/or for whatever reason have to keep it out possibly pointed at the bad guy while officers pull up to the scene my badge will help them identify me as the good guy.

As for the OP's original question....I am willing to help but only in a situation that my help will help. In the swiss cheese shootout mentioned above I'm helping my family look for cover till it stops. If I happened to have my AR and officers are pinned down or out gunned perhaps a 55 grain ballistic tip or two may be helpful. Just have to be very careful and use your head because the dangers mentioned by others above are real. I don't think anyone here on TFL could just watch a LEO be murdered while we did nothing and could have. Kinda tough to live with that.

threegun · November 29, 2009, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Anyone can buy one-it cannot serve any real purpose of identification
No one will be able to see what it is, nor will they have any idea of its supposed significance, which is known only to you.
The fact that you have a CCW permit is at that point completely irrelevant to the situation at hand.

LEO don't look at the badge from a distance, pause to read it, and then refrain from shooting you if its authentic. They see a shinny piece of metal being held up and immediately think thats a brother. Why else would off duty/ plain clothes officers use one?

RG Stewart · November 29, 2009, 09:50 AM

I don't see the need for a CCW badge, because I keep a really big white hat in my trunk for those situations. It would only be redundant.

**OldMarksman** · November 29, 2009, 10:12 AM

Quote:

LEO don't look at the badge from a distance, pause to read it, and then refrain from shooting you if its authentic. They see a shinny piece of metal being held up and immediately think thats a brother.

If that's the intent, I would be very concerned about being charged with impersonating an officer. Might not matter whehter the badge were a lost police badge or a toy that had "714" or "G Man" on it--question could be, what did you do, and why? Did you flash a badge so people might think you were a police officer?

Quote:

Why else would off duty/ plain clothes officers use one?

Could it be to identify themselves as police officers?

sixxgunnernick · November 29, 2009, 12:37 PM

Thanks for being open minded..thought I was alone here. I bet you read the whole thread before jumping in unlike others..jeeze I feel like I have to repeat over and over. Identify yourself as a ccw citizen..do you need assistance? The badge says ccw..not police..thanks again for understanding what I am trying to point out. My chances of the cop shooting me just greatly decreased don't you think?

whip1 · November 29, 2009, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Identify yourself as a ccw citizen..do you need assistance? The badge says ccw.

in the middle of a shoot out, are you really going to have a conversation with a cop?

ChileVerde1 · November 29, 2009, 12:50 PM

From an LEO. A CCW badge is a bad idea all the way around. Aside from finding it personally offensive as a desecration of something sacred many of us have earned, it can also be very dangerous to real LEO's in the wrong hands.

Also, a DA or AUSA will have no trouble painting you as a "gun shop commando" or a wannabe. Just enjoy your right to carry discreetly and use sound judgement. Please put the badges away! I always respect a ccw holders right to carry especially if they extend me the courtesy of letting me know they're armed. But, if they brandish a Badge, or if I noticed they have one, it would certainly raise my suspicions or cast them in a negative light. I think the same can be said for any LEO, and remember most of us, or at least the ones I know, are generally gun friendly.

Sorry, they're (CCW Badges) just a very bad idea and you don't need them if your carrying lawfully. They're actually kind of a joke.

CUBAN REDNECK · November 29, 2009, 01:13 PM

The only reason to get involved would be to save your life or the life of another person. That being said, you will run the risk of being shot, either by the BG or the police. The police are well trained and may deem you to be a BG if you are not recognizable to them. There is no easy answer, keep your wits and be aware of your surroundings. If you carry a weapon think about your actions or possible actions and their potential consequences, always.

doh_312 · November 29, 2009, 03:51 PM

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=386771

How bout if you were you were in the same coffee shop as these officers?

Of course this is a different situation than previously discussed, but I think the same basic arguments apply. The cops are taking fire from one direction and now they hear your firearm from another direction.

Does you already being in the "line of fire" change your idea of not helping an officer or officers under fire. Bear in mind this guy was ambushing police officers, so while your in the vicinity of the gun shots he is not aiming for you. And it sounds like the BG didn't have many stray rounds.

Erik · November 29, 2009, 04:04 PM

Another LEO commenting that Glen Dee is spot on in post #25.

--

Also, I'd like to comment on the side of the "CCW badges should never be worn and certainly never used" crowd. Note, in this particular scenario, displaying a badge during a police action is actually being advocated as a good idea. Of all the times and places, rest assured, it would not be a good idea.

MTT TL · November 29, 2009, 06:37 PM

Quote:

How bout if you were you were in the same coffee shop as these officers?

Since all those cops were killed I think any help would have been appreciated. So far there has been no sign that the ambushers were wounded, so this seems more an ambush than a gun fight and likely a good argument to always wear your vest.

Tragic really.

Glenn Dee · November 29, 2009, 09:04 PM

Once again... none of us has enough information to make any judgment calls on the police officers. I do however think we can all learn to adjust our own personal tactics and maybe come up with some answers that we can use.

OK so here we are... four TFL regs sitting in a pizza shop having sharing good company... Some nut bucket comes in and targets us for what ever reason... what do we do?

wally626 · November 29, 2009, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Since all those cops were killed I think any help would have been appreciated. So far there has been no sign that the ambushers were wounded, so this seems more an ambush than a gun fight and likely a good argument to always wear your vest.

According to one report I read they were all wearing vests, but news reports this early are often wrong. This is one case where a armed citizen may be of more help than just a random street shooting. The BG targeted the cops, it is possible that a bystander could have drawn and fired before the BG left, but they would have to be alert and very quick.

pax · November 30, 2009, 10:10 AM

Here's a riveting account of a situation where a non-LEO intervened with a personally owned firearm to save a cop's life:

http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-ems/...oting-suspect/

Be sure to watch the embedded video, too.

The description of the encounter sounds like it was a real rodeo. Thank goodness the cop survived!

pax

ZeSpectre · November 30, 2009, 11:29 AM

I have to say (and this is PURELY hypothetical) that

If such a situation were taking place near my house
and
If the cops were really pinned down in a bad situation
then
My intervention (if I should choose to do so) would come from a distance such that neither the cops nor the bad guys would actually be seeing me.

Glenn Dee · November 30, 2009, 08:06 PM

OK... If you absoloutly positively must have one... I mean if you cant live without a CCW badge I have a suggestion that may keep you out of the pokie.

Most people live, work, recreate, and shop in an area that is probably within several different police jurisdictions. My suggestion is this. While your going about your normal business and see an officer.. notice the shape of his/her shield. Get an idea of the shape of all the local P/D's shield. When you get your CCW Badge pick one that looks nothing like the local cops shields. Get something real hokie... unusual,.... strange even.

So if you do have to display it... it'll probably be taken for what it is a CCW badge. Cant blame you for playing cop is you dont have a cop style badge.

November 28, 2009, 10:17 PM	#29
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	To me, . . . this is one of those scenarios that no one ever wants to be in, . . . and can only be answered when the chips start falling. I think Glenn Dee summed the whole thing up pretty well: "This is truely a nightmare scenario. An all round no win situation. If you choose to get involved. " My worst fear would to have done nothing, and by doing so, allowed a bg to take out a police officer. That would be hard for me to sleep on. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

November 29, 2009, 12:02 AM	#30
ChileVerde1 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2006 Posts: 101	Ditto Glen Dee! Former cop and current federal LEO. Just wanted to add one thing and I believe this is common sense. If any of you see me or any other brothers in Blue (or green for me now) and were getting our buts handed to us in a fight where it looks like our life may be in danger, and this has happened, as far as I'm concerned feel free to help. I've had, and others I know have had, very good experiences with good samaritans helping out in fights, etc... with unruly subjects. It really is a judgement call just use common sense! Is the Officer unconcious, did he get his weapon taken away, are they fighting for his weapon, is he calling for help, is he being overpowered...? If a guy has my weapon or has me pinned down or outgunned and there's no backup in sight, please by all means do your worst. I'll not think ill of you. Just my 2 cents!

November 29, 2009, 12:45 AM	#31
sixxgunnernick Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 247	wanna be leo? Nothing to do with wanna be leo..more of identity. Don't wanna be shot by leo..thanks

November 29, 2009, 06:33 AM	#33
sixxgunnernick Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 247	AGAIN.. Don't wear it on your shirt pocket..keep it out of plain view until you need to IDENTIFY YOURSELF AS A C.C.W. CITIZEN. Thats better than flashing your gun..so thats not moronic. Or is it oxymoron?

November 29, 2009, 12:37 PM	#39
sixxgunnernick Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 247	Threegun.. Thanks for being open minded..thought I was alone here. I bet you read the whole thread before jumping in unlike others..jeeze I feel like I have to repeat over and over. Identify yourself as a ccw citizen..do you need assistance? The badge says ccw..not police..thanks again for understanding what I am trying to point out. My chances of the cop shooting me just greatly decreased don't you think?

November 28, 2009, 08:24 PM	#26
Ticman Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 81	There have been cases were a CWP holder has saved a Cop who was about to be killed. Of course there have also been plain clothes Cop who was killed by uniformed Cops thinking the plain clothed officer was the bad guy. I would think it best to stay back away from the action unless you have no choice. But, here again I'm not sure I could stand by and watch and cop be executed either. (I have family in law enforcement) I hope I never have to make that choice. Heck, I hope I never have to pull my gun.

November 28, 2009, 10:00 PM	#27
Croz Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2008 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 307	I think the reality for everyone is that it's a judgement call. If I'm in downtown Tampa and a police gunfight erupts near me, I'm certainly not going to take a position behind the car with the officers and start shooting. However, if I'm hunkered down, staying safe and see that the officer is now completely out of ammo, and the BG is walking up to him to execute him? I'm probably taking the shot. Will I get arrested? Probably not. Will I get sued? Probably. Can I live with myself watching a police officer get executed while I have the means to intervene? Certainly not. I agree with everyone that says that a CCW badge is a really bad idea, and that I'm not going to get involved in a shootout like I'm a wannabe LEO. But I can't say that I would never get involved under any circumstances.

November 28, 2009, 10:16 PM	#28
whip1 Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 383	I can't think of any reason to get involved.

November 29, 2009, 03:24 AM	#32
cracked91 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 385	Ok. . . first of all, a CCW badge is an oxymoron. You are concealing so people won't know you have a gun, yet you wear a badge that lets people know you have a gun? If you want people to think your some kind of officer or defender of justice just wear a navy blue shirt tucked in and open carry. Second of all, in the single officer in trouble situation, I think I would assist, if possible, and count on God to keep the officer from shooting me. Unless you are pointing the gun at the officer or an unarmed citizen though you should not be shot, by the officer. . . . legally. A good idea? Probably not, but sometimes you just have to go with that gut feeling. You should get the police report for the shootout near your house when it is submitted. In AZ at least they are public information and all you have to do is call and ask for a copy. It would have good info on who fired first, calibers, gun types, injuries and locations.

November 29, 2009, 08:35 AM	#35
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	I have carried a concealed CCP badge for almost 18 years now. I'm not a wannabe cop in fact I have never intervened in a crime since getting my permit. I have no intentions of acting as law enforcement with or without a badge. So right off the top the two biggest arguments against carrying a badge are off the table. Now the one and only reason that I carry a badge is to allow responding officers to identify me as the good guy. You naysayers can do as you see fit however everyone knows that off duty/plain clothes law enforcement use a badge as ID. Combined with non threatening gun handling it will almost always cause pause from responding LE. According to LE that I have asked, if they see a badge they don't shoot (unless you point at them). So for me if I ever have had to use my weapon and/or for whatever reason have to keep it out possibly pointed at the bad guy while officers pull up to the scene my badge will help them identify me as the good guy. As for the OP's original question....I am willing to help but only in a situation that my help will help. In the swiss cheese shootout mentioned above I'm helping my family look for cover till it stops. If I happened to have my AR and officers are pinned down or out gunned perhaps a 55 grain ballistic tip or two may be helpful. Just have to be very careful and use your head because the dangers mentioned by others above are real. I don't think anyone here on TFL could just watch a LEO be murdered while we did nothing and could have. Kinda tough to live with that.

November 29, 2009, 09:50 AM	#37
RG Stewart Member Join Date: August 1, 2006 Location: Ga Posts: 54	I don't see the need for a CCW badge, because I keep a really big white hat in my trunk for those situations. It would only be redundant.

November 29, 2009, 12:50 PM	#41
ChileVerde1 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2006 Posts: 101	From an LEO. A CCW badge is a bad idea all the way around. Aside from finding it personally offensive as a desecration of something sacred many of us have earned, it can also be very dangerous to real LEO's in the wrong hands. Also, a DA or AUSA will have no trouble painting you as a "gun shop commando" or a wannabe. Just enjoy your right to carry discreetly and use sound judgement. Please put the badges away! I always respect a ccw holders right to carry especially if they extend me the courtesy of letting me know they're armed. But, if they brandish a Badge, or if I noticed they have one, it would certainly raise my suspicions or cast them in a negative light. I think the same can be said for any LEO, and remember most of us, or at least the ones I know, are generally gun friendly. Sorry, they're (CCW Badges) just a very bad idea and you don't need them if your carrying lawfully. They're actually kind of a joke.

November 29, 2009, 01:13 PM	#42
CUBAN REDNECK Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: SW FLORIDA Posts: 318	The only reason to get involved would be to save your life or the life of another person. That being said, you will run the risk of being shot, either by the BG or the police. The police are well trained and may deem you to be a BG if you are not recognizable to them. There is no easy answer, keep your wits and be aware of your surroundings. If you carry a weapon think about your actions or possible actions and their potential consequences, always.

November 29, 2009, 03:51 PM	#43
doh_312 Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2008 Posts: 312	http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=386771 How bout if you were you were in the same coffee shop as these officers? Of course this is a different situation than previously discussed, but I think the same basic arguments apply. The cops are taking fire from one direction and now they hear your firearm from another direction. Does you already being in the "line of fire" change your idea of not helping an officer or officers under fire. Bear in mind this guy was ambushing police officers, so while your in the vicinity of the gun shots he is not aiming for you. And it sounds like the BG didn't have many stray rounds.

November 29, 2009, 04:04 PM	#44
Erik Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: America Posts: 3,479	Another LEO commenting that Glen Dee is spot on in post #25. -- Also, I'd like to comment on the side of the "CCW badges should never be worn and certainly never used" crowd. Note, in this particular scenario, displaying a badge during a police action is actually being advocated as a good idea. Of all the times and places, rest assured, it would not be a good idea. __________________ Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective

November 29, 2009, 09:04 PM	#46
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	Once again... none of us has enough information to make any judgment calls on the police officers. I do however think we can all learn to adjust our own personal tactics and maybe come up with some answers that we can use. OK so here we are... four TFL regs sitting in a pizza shop having sharing good company... Some nut bucket comes in and targets us for what ever reason... what do we do?

November 30, 2009, 10:10 AM	#48
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Here's a riveting account of a situation where a non-LEO intervened with a personally owned firearm to save a cop's life: http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-ems/...oting-suspect/ Be sure to watch the embedded video, too. The description of the encounter sounds like it was a real rodeo. Thank goodness the cop survived! pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

November 30, 2009, 11:29 AM	#49
ZeSpectre Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Shenandoah Valley Posts: 3,276	I have to say (and this is PURELY hypothetical) that If such a situation were taking place near my house and If the cops were really pinned down in a bad situation then My intervention (if I should choose to do so) would come from a distance such that neither the cops nor the bad guys would actually be seeing me. __________________ "The dogs may bark but the caravan moves on"

November 30, 2009, 08:06 PM	#50
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	CCW Badge. OK... If you absoloutly positively must have one... I mean if you cant live without a CCW badge I have a suggestion that may keep you out of the pokie. Most people live, work, recreate, and shop in an area that is probably within several different police jurisdictions. My suggestion is this. While your going about your normal business and see an officer.. notice the shape of his/her shield. Get an idea of the shape of all the local P/D's shield. When you get your CCW Badge pick one that looks nothing like the local cops shields. Get something real hokie... unusual,.... strange even. So if you do have to display it... it'll probably be taken for what it is a CCW badge. Cant blame you for playing cop is you dont have a cop style badge.