What happens if i have to shoot someone in texas?

[David spargenator]

im in texas, just got my concealed handgun license in the mail. in class they talked about how the criminals family will try to sue you if you shoot the criminal in self defense. they also gave us a legal service to call if that happens, and told us not to talk to the police when they arrive. but they didn't specify whether or not you'll be arrested or charged with murder? guys, what happens when you shoot someone in self defense, and are legally justified to do so.

[Double Naught Spy]

Nobody can tell you if you will be arrested and/or charged. Shooting another person is illegal and so you may be arrested and undergo due process, especially if details of the event are in question.

[kilimanjaro]

Doesn't sound like a fully researched session. Might think about finding another one. Do talk to your attorney, two or three guys could come up with an hour's fee for a session in his office.

Do contact your State representatives. Many states, like mine, bar civil suits where the deceased was committing a crime at the time he got shot. Crime is not supposed to pay the relatives, either.

[Pahoo]

but they didn't specify whether or not you'll be arrested or charged with murder? guys, what happens when you shoot someone in self defense, and are legally justified to do so.

For sure, you will be arrested, charged and your words carry no weight. You will go to jail and the process begins. You will have to get a lawyer and you "may" get out on bond. Then you will be on a ride of your life. Eventually down the road, you may be found innocent but that has to be proved, in a court of law. Even after that, your may be sued in a civil court. .....

Lots to think about and;
Be Safe !!!

[pax]

First, read this. (It's short -- only 16 pages or so.)

What Every Gun Owner Needs to Know About Self Defense Law. [pdf link]

Read it again tomorrow. And the next day.

pax

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by David spargenator

....in class they talked about how the criminals family will try to sue you if you shoot the criminal in self defense. they also gave us a legal service to call if that happens, and told us not to talk to the police when they arrive. but they didn't specify whether or not you'll be arrested or charged with murder? guys, what happens when you shoot someone in self defense, and are legally justified to do so.

The first thing to remember is that you don't have the final say about whether your act of violence was justified self defense. That decision will be made by others after the fact -- the prosecutor and/or a grand jury and/or, if you're unlucky, the jury at your trial.

Let's take a general, high level overview of use-of-force law in the United States.

But first the usual caveats: (1) I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer; (2) This is not legal advice, but rather it's general information on a legal topic; and (3) this is intended as a general overview without reference to the laws of any particular State, and as such it doesn't consider specific state laws that might allow justification of a use of force in some circumstance not mentioned here.

Now let's look at the basic legal reality of the use of force in self defense.

1. Our society takes a dim view of threatening or using force against and/or intentionally hurting or killing another human. In every State the threat or use of force and/or intentionally hurting or killing another human is prima facie (on its face) a crime of one sort or another.
   
   
   1. However, for hundreds of years our law has recognized that there are some circumstances in which such an intentional act of violence against another human might be legally justified.
      
      
   2. Exactly what would be necessary to establish that violence against someone else was justified will depend on (1) the applicable law where the event takes place; and (2) exactly what happened and how it happened, which will have to be judged on the basis of evidence gathered after the fact.
      
      
   3. Someone who initiated a conflict will almost never be able to legally justify an act of violence against another.
   
   
2. The amount of force an actor may justifiably use in self defense will depend on the level of the threat.
   
   
   1. Under the laws of most States, lethal force may be justified when a reasonable person in like circumstance would conclude that a use of lethal force is necessary to prevent the otherwise unavoidable, imminent death or grave bodily injury to an innocent. And to establish that, the actor claiming justified use of lethal force would need to show that the person against whom the lethal force was used reasonably had --
      
      
      1. Ability, i. e., the power to deliver force sufficient to cause death or grave bodily harm;
         
         
      2. Opportunity, i. e., the assailant was capable of immediately deploying such force; and
         
         
      3. put an innocent in Jeopardy, i. e., the assailant was acting in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that he had the intent to kill or cripple.
      
      
   2. "Ability" doesn't necessarily require a weapon. Disparity of force, e. g., a large, young, strong person attacking a small, old, frail person, or force of numbers, could show "Ability."
      
      
   3. "Opportunity" could be established by showing proximity, lack of barriers or the like.
      
      
   4. "Jeopardy" (intent) could be inferred from overt acts (e. g., violent approach) and/or statements of intent.
      
      
   5. And unless the standard justifying the use of lethal force is met, use of some lesser level of violence might be legally justified to prevent a harmful or offensive, unconsented to contact by another person.
   
   
3. If you have thus used violence against another person, your actions will be investigated as a crime, because on the surface that's what it is.
   
   
   1. Sometimes there will be sufficient evidence concerning what happened and how it happened readily apparent to the police for the police and/or prosecutor to quickly conclude that your actions were justified. If that's the case, you will be quickly exonerated of criminal responsibility, although in many States you might have to still deal with a civil suit.
      
      
   2. If the evidence is not clear, you may well be arrested and perhaps even charged with a criminal offense. If that happens you will need to affirmatively assert that you were defending yourself and put forth evidence that you at least prima facie satisfied the applicable standard justifying your act of violence.
      
      
   3. Of course, if your use of force against another human took place in or immediately around your home, your justification for your use of violence could be more readily apparent or easier to establish -- maybe.
      
      
      1. Again, it still depends on what happened and how it happened. For example, was the person you shot a stranger, an acquaintance, a friend, a business associate or relative? Did the person you shot forcibly break into your home or was he invited? Was the contact tumultuous from the beginning, or did things begin peaceably and turn violent, how and why?
         
         
      2. In the case of a stranger forcibly breaking into your home, your justification for the use of lethal force would probably be obvious. The laws of most States provide some useful protections for someone attacked in his home, which protections make it easier and a more certain matter for your acts to be found justified.
         
         
      3. It could however be another matter to establish your justification if you have to use force against someone you invited into your home in a social context which later turns violent.
         
         
      4. It could also be another matter if you left the safety of your house to confront someone on your property.
   
   
4. Good, general overviews of the topic can be found at UseofForce.us and in this booklet by Marty Hayes at the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network.
   
   
5. Sometimes a defensive use of lethal force will have grave consequences for the defender, even when ultimately exonerated. For example --
   
   
   • This couple, arrested in early April and finally exonerated under Missouri's Castle Doctrine in early June. And no doubt after incurring expenses for bail and a lawyer, as well as a couple of month's anxiety, before being cleared.
     
     
   • Larry Hickey, in gun friendly Arizona: He was arrested, spent 71 days in jail, went through two different trials ending in hung juries, was forced to move from his house, etc., before the DA decided it was a good shoot and dismissed the charges.
     
     
   • Mark Abshire in Oklahoma: Despite defending himself against multiple attackers on his own lawn in a fairly gun-friendly state with a "Stand Your Ground" law, he was arrested, went to jail, charged, lost his job and his house, and spent two and a half years in the legal meat-grinder before finally being acquitted.
     
     
   • Harold Fish, also in gun friendly Arizona: He was still convicted and sent to prison. He won his appeal, his conviction was overturned, and a new trial was ordered. The DA chose to dismiss the charges rather than retry Mr. Fish.
     
     
   • Gerald Ung: He was attacked by several men, and the attack was captured on video. He was nonetheless charged and brought to trial. He was ultimately acquitted.
     
     
   • Some good folks in clear jeopardy and with no way to preserve their lives except by the use of lethal force against other humans. Yet that happened under circumstances in which their justification for the use of lethal force was not immediately clear. While each was finally exonerated, it came at great emotional and financial cost. And perhaps there but for the grace of God will go one of us.
     
     
   • And note also that two of those cases arose in States with a Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground law in effect at the time.

Now, as to not saying anything to police, if you're going to claim self defense that might not be the best idea.

But Don't Say Too Much.

Call 911. Be the first to report the incident and do so immediately. If you don't report it, or if there's a long delay, you will appear to have a guilty conscience.

Then, having taken LFI-I with Massad Ayoob, spending time with him and helping with a class of his in Sierra Vista, AZ not too long ago, I'll go along with his recommendation for when the police arrive.

1. While one has a right to remain silent, clamming up is what the bad guys do. Following a self defense incident, you'll want to act like one of the good guys. You also won't want the investigating officers to miss any evidence or possible witnesses. What if the responding officers miss your assailant's knife that you saw fall down the storm drain? What if they don't know about the guy you saw pick up your assailant's gun and walk off with it?
   
   
2. At the same time, you don't want to say too much. You will most likely be rattled. You will also most likely be suffering from various well known stress induced distortions of perception.
   
   
3. So Massad Ayoob recommends:
   
   
   1. Saying something like, "That person (or those people) attacked me." You are thus immediately identifying yourself as the victim. It also helps get the investigation off on the right track.
      
      
   2. Saying something like, "I will sign a complaint." You are thus immediately identifying the other guys(s) as the criminal(s).
      
      
   3. Pointing out possible evidence, especially evidence that may not be immediate apparent. You don't want any such evidence to be missed.
      
      
   4. Pointing out possible witnesses before they vanish.
      
      
   5. Then saying something like, "I'm not going to say anything more right now. You'll have my full cooperation in 24 hours, after I've talked with my lawyer."

Pleading Self Defense is Very Different From the Common Lines of Defense to a Criminal Charge.

A lot of folks point to the "Don't Talk to the Police" video that is making the rounds on gun boards. But it is about a police contact in general. It works fine when you aren't claiming self defense, and it's up to the State to prove your guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. But things work differently if you are pleading self defense.

Basically --

1. The prosecutor must prove the elements of the underlying crime beyond a reasonable doubt -- basically that you intentionally shot the guy. But if you are pleading self defense, you will have admitted that, so we go to step 2.
   
   
2. Now you must present evidence from which the trier of fact could infer that your conduct met the applicable legal standard justifying the use of lethal force in self defense. Depending on the State, you may not have to prove it, i. e., you may not have to convince the jury. But you will have to at least present a prima facie case, i. e., sufficient evidence which, if true, establishes that you have satisfied all legal elements necessary to justify your conduct.
   
   
3. Now it's the prosecutor's burden to attack your claim and convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that you did not act in justified self defense.

Let's go through that again.

In an ordinary criminal prosecution, the defendant doesn't have to say anything. He doesn't have to present any evidence. The entire burden falls on the prosecution. The prosecution has to prove all the elements of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt.

If the crime you're charged with is, for example, manslaughter, the prosecution must prove that you were there, you fired the gun, you intended to fire the gun (or were reckless), and the guy you shot died. In the typical manslaughter prosecution, the defendant might by way of his defense try to plant a seed that you weren't there (alibi defense), or that someone else might have fired the gun, or that it was an accident. In each case the defendant doesn't have to actually prove his defense. He merely has to create a reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors.

So in such cases, it probably doesn't pay for you to say anything to the police, at least early on. Let them do the work of trying to amass evidence to prove the case against you. There's no reason for you to help.

But if you are going to be claiming self defense, you will wind up admitting all the elements of what would, absent legal justification, constitute a crime. You will necessarily admit that you were there, that you fired the gun, and that you intended to shoot the decedent. Your defense is that your use of lethal force in self defense satisfied the applicable legal standard and that, therefore, it was justified.

So now you would have to affirmatively present evidence from which the trier of fact could infer that your conduct met the applicable legal standard justifying the use of lethal force in self defense. In some jurisdictions, you may not have to prove it, i. e., you don't have to convince the jury. But you will at least have to present a prima facie case, i. e., sufficient evidence which, if true, establishes that you have satisfied all legal elements necessary to justify your conduct.

Then it will be the prosecutor's burden to attack your claim and convince the jury (in some jurisdictions, he will have to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt) that you did not act in justified self defense. And even if you didn't have to prove self defense (only present a prima facie case), the more convincing your story, and your evidence, is, the harder it will be for the prosecutor to meet his rebuttal burden.

[tangolima]

You will be charged unless you can prove self defense. The standard of proof varies with different states. Some states will grant you immunity to civil liability in case of self defense.

Self defense has 5 elements; innocence, imminence, avoidance, proportionality, reasonableness. All 5 need to be met simultaneously. One should understand how it works before carries a gun for self defense. I would.

-TL

[Glenn E. Meyer]

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u...E/htm/PE.9.htm

http://www.texasgunlaws.org/chap9.htm

You need to get more info about TX specifics from what seems to be a very cursory explanation in your class.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

If you shoot someone in Texas, whether accidentally or intentionally, chances are practically 100% that evidence will be presented to your county grand jury who will make the decision to charge you or "no bill" (not charge) you.

[SVO]

One small point to remember is that Texas has the death penalty and we do use it.

[Double Naught Spy]

For sure, you will be arrested, charged and your words carry no weight. You will go to jail and the process begins. You will have to get a lawyer and you "may" get out on bond.

NO, not for sure. It happens quite often that people are not arrested or charged. Quite often, in fact, with home invasions and business robberies, the residents or employees are NOT ARRESTED or charged. You just cannot count on it not happening.

[rickyrick]

Short and simple, at the very least, the district attorney will decide weather or not to file charges against you. May get sent to grand jury.

At the most, you can get charged with murder and trial, sent to prison.

Most of the self defense shootings don't get past the DA. But nothing is guaranteed.

As far as getting sued... Someone has to pay lawyers. So it could depend

[doofus47]

It's probably time to plunk down a bit of $ in front of a lawyer and discuss this. It will definitely be money well-invested.
If you are carrying, you probably don't want to be wondering this while you are facing a possible SD scenario.
Be safe.

[CowTowner]

Take some time and watch the short videos at the bottom of the page:
http://www.texaslawshield.com/

Some for your questions may be answered there.

**No, I don't work for or sell the service/product. I'm just a member.**

[jtmckinney]

I'm also a member of Texaslawshield. In exchange for my money I get piece of mind that I will at least have a lawyer if I ever have to use my firearm.

I have been considering purchasing their book "Texas Gun Law". Probably a good source of info for Texas specific laws.

[Rbrt3474]

Another vote for Texas Law Shield. An inexpensive program that is there if you ever need it, basically insurance for CHL owners.

Another note on what happens if you shoot someone. I have heard that even in justifiable self-defense, it is very difficult to get your weapon back. I've heard of them keeping it as evidence, automatically destroying the gun, or just "misplacing" the evidence so it never gets back to you.

[rickyrick]

Locally where I used to live, there had been defensive shootings.

Most were quickly reviewed by the DA and no charges filed. One in Abilene at the end of a road rage encounter, both parties produced handguns. ended tragically for one and the survivor got 70 years. I don't think either party was justified in producing a handgun. The survivor actually went back to his vehicle to retrieve a gun. So he had the opportunity to back out of the situation.

[zincwarrior]

Another vote for Texas Law Shield. An inexpensive program that is there if you ever need it, basically insurance for CHL owners.

As them who will be your actual attorney, not just of counsel. Also ask how many cases have occurred in the past.

An important issue is physical jurisdiction. Rural areas tend to be more "self defense friendly." San Antonio and Travis County are downright hostile.

[HiBC]

Understand,I take your question in good faith as someone who is simply trying to educate himself about the responsibilities of armed self defense.
No problem.Good idea.

I suggest being careful about choosing the language you use to ask the question.

We all can be connected to anything we post on the internet.

If I were on the hot seat in court after a self defense shoot,I do not think it would help my case if a prosecutor introduced posts that I wrote that asked "When is it OK for me to shoot someone"

You did not ask it that way,you asked "What happens". No problem.

I'm not any kind of lawyer.

My understanding,which could be wrong:

If you kill someone, "Homi cide" breaks down to "human killed".Its a homicide.

Homicide and murder are not quite the same.A murder is a homicide,but homicide is not necessarily murder.

If I am involved in a self defense shooting resulting in death and claim self defense,it is "he is dead,I killed him",I have commited homicide

Then I must deal with a legal system that very often is quite prejudiced against ANY homicide.

I must make the case that the homicide was justifiable.

Generally,that is about being killed or staying alive.If you are killed,bummer.

If you avoid being killed,you are still alive.

[Don P]

Another vote for Texas Law Shield

The wife and I joined US Law shield based out of Houston Texas, wonder if its one in the same??

[Brit]

Sitting in front of a lap top, thinking of possible, "What if's" and "If I shoot someone?" Is an interesting exercise.

But the reality of a shooting, say at 2am, you awakened from a deep sleep breaking door glass, etc, etc.

Sorry to tell you this, but you have no idea what you will do! The main thing is this, for the average adult person to shoot some one, there has to be one great reason! Fear of great bodily harm being possible, against you or your loved ones, big incentive.

Has the threat been dispatched, was the assailant on their own? 911

"Some one is in my house" Give address, your name.

How all this plays out, as of then, there is no reason to blab on!

Had it happen to me, I called 911, false alarm, some one pulled the screen "locked!" door open, 2AM. But then left.

The snap sound of the catch popping, woke me up. What ever came up on the 911 operators screen, she wanted to make sure I was separated from my gun!

I had met some of the responding Deputy's, when I worked Armed Security at a local gated community. Quite a few times.They checked the down stairs, the garage, round the back of my town house, "Thank You Gentlemen" said I "Keep Safe" "Good night Mike" Painless. No idea how long for the adrenalin to dissipate!

Now if there had been someone bleeding out on my tiles? How would that have played out?

[pax]

One of the reasons I recommend the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network (ACLDN) is because they provide every member with a big stack of educational DVDs and a book, all designed to help their members understand the nuances of questions like this. That material alone is worth even more than the cost of the membership package -- but the membership package also includes:

• Members choose their own lawyers, and are not stuck with a prepaid legal person who may not be a good personal fit;
  .
• The organization provides a list of lawyers you may wish to contact, but you're not limited to only those choices;
  .
• Up to $10k goes straight to your lawyer the day you need it -- no delays, no waiting until your name is cleared before you can access benefits or begin setting your legal defense in place, no need for loans or liens to pre-fund your legal defense and hope you'll be reimbursed;
  .
• Excellent, well-respected use of force experts immediately on your side to help your lawyer put together your self-defense case;
  .
• More money -- up to a cap of half their war chest, or around $250k -- available as needed for more complex cases;
  .
• Cases overseen by reputable, knowledgeable experts in the field, including Dennis Tueller, Tom Givens, John Farnam, Marty Hayes, Emmanuel Kappelsohn, and others;
  .
• Discounts at first tier firearms training schools around the country.

There are a lot of different organizations out there providing some of the same types of aftermath services, but nobody provides the education and immediate access to well-respected expertise that ACLDN does.

pax

[CowTowner]

The wife and I joined US Law shield based out of Houston Texas, wonder if its one in the same??

Yes it is.

[csmsss]

Regarding the decision of what to say to the police and when to say it.

I would always recommend to anyone who is involved in a self-defense shooting to speak with an attorney experienced in such cases before mouthing a word to the police. That isn't to say that the best course isn't to make a full statement, but at the time of the event you simply will be in no condition to know that. You will have gone through perhaps the most traumatic experience of your life, likely filled with adrenaline, shock and fear, and aren't really in any sort of condition to know the implications of any statements you might make. There is absolutely no need to allow the police to rush you into a statement - the urgency is theirs, not yours.

[TXAZ]

I'm incredibly disappointed in the class you took, it doesn't appear it was a quality venue. I felt the class I took in Austin was top notch. (Feel free to report it to DPS, as they do appreciate that feedback.)

If you don't understand the consequences, you really need to consider if you're prepared to carry.

Look up the following book, it gives you good insight from those who know.
"After you shoot: The Gun is Hot the Perp is not"

PAX and Frank gave some good advice, but be careful acting before you you understand the consequences.

Also, your location will make a difference as to what happens: If you're in Randall, Collin, Loving or Ft Bend Counties with a good shoot, you're likely out of trouble in a week. If you're in San Antonio, Dallas or Houston, you're likely to go to the Grand Jury. If you're in Travis County, history shows you're going to trial.

Good luck.