Playing Dead as Self defense - examples

[Double Naught Spy]

"Hope" is not a plan.

Nobody here is talking about using hope as a plan, though I am sure just about everybody uses it.

Ask Mr. Possum how that works on a motivated predator.

Mike

I don't speak possum, but I do read and understand English and lots of folks using the tactic are very much alive to tell about it when they were dealing with motivated predators. That is why I provided the links, Mike, so that others could read or listen to them as well.

[markj]

and lots of folks using the tactic are very much alive to tell about it when they were dealing with motivated predators.

I am glad it worked for them, no guarentee it will work for everyone every time tho.

[Double Naught Spy]

I am glad it worked for them, no guarentee it will work for everyone every time tho.

I do like this sort of response. It points out that an idea or plan won't work 100% of the time and hence indicates that it might should be avoided as a result. Of course, fighting it out with guns is another venue about which there is no guarentee it will work every time either.

I am still looking for the one plan that does work 100% of the time. None seem to qualify short of not actually being where the bad things happen.

I found this post interesting. One of our own members has used playing dead to save his own life...

About 12 or 15 years ago, my condo was broken into while I was in my home office. I heard some noise and started towards the front door. At first I thought it was maintenance coming to do some work until I saw two guys with guns. Because of circumstances that would take too long to explain here, they probably thought I was not at home and they were surprised as I was. The results of their surprise was a volley of bullets, some of which hit me while I was running down the hallway heading back for my home office. To make a long story short, I played dead while they quickly grabbed valuable art work and some electronics. I was bleeding profusely and struggling to maintain consciousness. When I heard them leave, I found the telephone and called 911. I had the telephone in my hand, made my way to the front door and locked it, hoping the police would arrive before the crooks came back for any more stuff.

Needless to say, the ploy worked. Once the intruders believed him to be down for the count, they left him alone.
Taken from...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...=446125&page=2

[Will Beararms]

After having been in a situation where a firearm was pointed at me with malice of forethought, I can assure you, your response to the threat will either be reactive or active.

Your response will come from your core being. It will be a combination of your training, emotions, fears, worldview and emanate from a quick assessment of the situation and circumstances.

It is hard to say what you will do but it can usually be categorized into two distinct parameters: fight or flight. Feigning death is not a bad idea given the right scenario.

I believe the only variable you can control is whether your response will be active versus reactive. The same holds true for many other events we go through and encounter daily such as driving an automobile. Life is a serious matter. Choose to be pro-active instead of re-active via the use of strategies, physical training and above all, prayer.

[gearhounds]

Before I resorted to that particular tactic, I would have to be absolutely without another possible option whatsoever.

I do have a good friend and co-worker that was in Vietnam, and it worked for him. His squad was ambushed by vastly superior numbers, and after being wounded by schrapnel, he was unable to withdraw. An enemy combatant saw him struggling on the ground, approached within 30 or so feet, and drew careful aim with a revolver. My friend held his hand up in front of his face and was shot in the wrist. The round shattered his wrist and passed on without hitting anything else, and my friend played dead. The enemy obviously thought his coup de grace did the job and moved on. My friend has a fused wrist, and one hell of a story.

[Tyrant]

Interesting responces. Makes one realize that the only one with a solid plan in one of these situations is the BG. Im not saying us law abiding citizens have no plan, but the BG has most likeley rehearsed this over and over prior to the confrontation.
As I go about my daily routine in areas where carry is not allowed, I look at the building layout, loose items that can be picked up, and secondary exits.
It is truly amazing what one see's when they are formulating a "What If" plan.

[overkill0084]

It certainly wouldn't be plan A.
One hopes that it's at the bottom of a list of other options.

[Skadoosh]

Im with DNS. Looking at the evidence, while not at the top of my playlist, I will be keeping that option in there.

[bighead46]

A couple of thoughts.
1. The bear is a different situation- the bear doesn't want to kill you- it wants to drive you off. By rolling up and not moving the bear (hopefully) breaks off the attack.
2. "Playing dead" you are putting yourself totally at the mercy of your enemy- I would NEVER do that unless I was unarmed and I could not flee, in other words, only as a last resort. If I could dive out a window- 2nd or third floor- I think I'd prefer that.
3. On the battle field, a lot of times all the "dead" enemy get another bullet in the head just to make sure they are really dead. There's been too many incidences of dead soldiers coming back to life and killing guys.
My own experience- if I don't see a lot of blood, etc- I get real suspicious. I myself would never play dead unless I had absolutely no other choice.

[markj]

I am still looking for the one plan that does work 100% of the time.

I belive we all are, but not every instance is the same. Keep a cool head, try not to panic, is first and foremost.

That is what the instructors say, lose your head and you may lose your head.

[BGutzman]

Playing dead may well likely result in you being dead.

[JohnKSa]

It's fair to say that's an accurate assessment of any action you take in a deadly force encounter.

That is, any strategy you employ in a deadly force encounter may well result in you being dead.

The bigger picture is there's obviously no single strategy that will work every time. It makes sense to have at least considered various strategies and think about what scenario might result in choosing a particular strategy. That helps avoid the situation where you treat every threat like a nail because the only strategy you have ever considered is to swing a hammer at it. Forgive the badly mangled metaphor...

[BGutzman]

That is, any strategy you employ in a deadly force encounter may well result in you being dead.

I agree completely but playing dead completely negates any possibility of stoping the threat with an apporpriate amount of force. Id prefer to be on my feet and not on my belly if Im taken out.

[Nitesites]

Had a real life situation occur just recently that pertains to this thread. Two coworkers whom I do not know personally were victims of a mugging turned deadly while on the job. Both victims were in a small enclosed space (think 10x10 operating cab). There are two doors, one in the front and one to the rear.

The mugger entered through the unlocked rear door and immediately shot victim one, only injuring him. Victim two attempted to retrieve his firearm which was located in a overnight bag but was unable to as he was fired upon by the mugger and killed. The mugger then proceeded to rummage through the pockets of both victims after shooting both occupants.

All through this, victim one maintained the presence of mind to remain still, which seemingly caused the attacker to believe that he was in fact dead. While I can't say if "playing dead" is appropriate sometimes in a life or death situation, I can say it was right for victim one this time.

Also : These are the facts as I know them.

[JohnKSa]

I agree completely but playing dead completely negates any possibility of stoping the threat with an apporpriate amount of force.

Or maybe it preserves your life long enough that you can pick a time to react to the threat with an appropriate amount of force.

As the above scenario demonstrates, not every situation is appropriate to a "react with force" strategy. I guess one can decide that he's always going to react with appropriate force no matter the outcome, but it's clear that's not always the best strategy for survival. Sometimes the odds are stacked so badly against you that the stand and fight approach is nothing but suicide.

[Double Naught Spy]

I agree completely but playing dead completely negates any possibility of stoping the threat with an apporpriate amount of force.

Apparently time and time again, the threat is stopped by playing dead. That was the point of the examples. The threat may move on, but the threat to you is stopped. When the threat does move on may be what gives you the opportunity to react, as pointed out, and to react at a point in time of your choosing such that your chances of success may be higher.

I had also started the thread on tackling an active shooter (and examples of both active shooters and those threatening to be active shooters). http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=436861

My point in looking at these alternative tactics was to see if they could be used effectively or not. Turns out, they can, despite some of the claims or perspectives that guns are the be all to end all when it comes to self defense. What good is a gun at times whe you don't have one. Far too often on this forum and others we read where folks proclaim that being unarmed (not having a gun, specifically) means being defenseless, but for many of us, being unarmed is a condition with which we are faced with some regularity. So are we really defenseless if we are unarmed?

That is an amazing perspective given that so many folks consider themselves as being "prepared" for such events where they might have to engage in self defense, but being prepared only seems to mean having a gun and being willing to use it if necessary, otherwise, they are "defenseless."

While it might be nice to be Bruce Lee or to have his skills, turns out that folks with all sorts of training and lack of training manage to effect a variety of times of self defense in lethal force encounters that work and work with surprising levels of success.

We like to say that the best defense is to be armed. It may be, or not. As a buddy of mine pointed out, the best defense is to not be where the threat is. However, somewhere along the way, many of us got the idea that "defense" means doing physical harm to the opposition. It is something of a strategy based on a good defense being based on a good offense. However, defense is just that, protection from attack. It does not have to mean doing harm to another person to stop the attack, but that is one venue. Defense encompasses a variety of considerations, one of which is playing dead which is a form of deception. You can run away. Maybe you are smart and can just avoid bad situations all together. Maybe you can hide, use cover (even if not hidden), etc. Even if without a physical non-biological weapon of your being (such as a gun, knife, stick, etc.), you can engage offensive defense where you take the fight to the opposition and people do this with equally surprising success without being Bruce Lee.

As the above scenario demonstrates, not every situation is appropriate to a "react with force" strategy.

Right. Sometimes I think we are going to react ourselves to death. The critical thing is making the right decisions based on the situation. There were folks at Luby's, VT, and a couple of other mass shootings where folks reacted with force and got killed as a result. Force is great, but it has to be used appropriately. A lot of brave people are dead as a result of poor choices in their timing to use force.

Personally, I have never quite followed the logic of having a gun for self defense and then having the attitude that if I saw anything going wrong that I had to react with force, putting myself in grave danger as a result. That would seem to be counter to the notion of "defense."

Sometimes the best option is to not make yourself the most important target to the opposition.

[bikerbill]

If you're the specific target of a shooter, playing dead is useless and I'd think up another way to keep breathing ... in a mass shooting where everyone's a target, it might work better ... I realize you can't always be armed, there are places it simply isn't allowed ... but if you are, I'd far rather use my weapon than try and fool the shooter into thinking he's already taken care of me ...

[Mello2u]

Several thoughts come to minds concerning whether someone should use "playing dead" as a means of defense.

Assuming that escape is not option:

Whether the shooter will believe that you are dead because you were shot at, missed, but you fell down in a timely fashion so as to "sell" the impression that you were hit and are now dead.
Whether you are shot, hit and visually bleeding.
Whether there are other other factors to divide the shooter's attention, like other targets or threats.
Your ability to control your breathing while experiencing an the aftermath of a huge adrenaline dump.
Whether you have a viable means to fight back.
Your state of mind (this can run the whole spectrum from disbelief and denial to dinner bell).

While playing dead has reportedly been successful, how many victims are there who attempted to "play dead" and were unsuccessful? In most cases of those who tried and were unsuccessful we will never know because they did not live to tell of the attempt and failure.

This thread is definitely food for thought.

It leads me, again, to the conclusion that life is uncertain. Nothing you practice in preparation for a deadly threat can prepare you 100% for any and all eventualities.

[440SAW]

It is a tactic; one of many. You would really have to be there to know what you would do; can't speculate on it. Playing dead might buy you time to do something else; like get out of the line of fire, create a diversion make eye contact with others and stop the BG somehow. Time will almost stop and you will have to do what comes to you. What is certain is that this is a situation in which no one wishes to find themselves.
As for just attacking, one would need to think through the risks of that given the circumstances of the instant.
There is a tread here about a MOB attack on GA train system, what a nightmare. BG's are out of control in many places...........

[Double Naught Spy]

While playing dead has reportedly been successful, how many victims are there who attempted to "play dead" and were unsuccessful? In most cases of those who tried and were unsuccessful we will never know because they did not live to tell of the attempt and failure.

Okay, I will play. Let's take the same sentence and apply to firearms.

While using a gun has reportedly been successful, how many victims are there who attempted to use a gun and were unsuccessful? In most cases of those who tried and were unsuccessful we will never know because they did not live to tell of the attempt and failure.

You can make the query about any method and as such by the way the query is framed, cast dispersions on the validity of the method.

Whether the shooter will believe that you are dead because you were shot at, missed, but you fell down in a timely fashion so as to "sell" the impression that you were hit and are now dead.
Whether you are shot, hit and visually bleeding.
Whether there are other other factors to divide the shooter's attention, like other targets or threats.
Your ability to control your breathing while experiencing an the aftermath of a huge adrenaline dump.
Whether you have a viable means to fight back.
Your state of mind (this can run the whole spectrum from disbelief and denial to dinner bell).

The "sell" didn't work so well with Cho who was basically entrapped with his victims and went around and shot several that he had already shot previously. That probably isn't the best of circumstances to play dead.

Keep in mind that the "sell" may be greatly influenced by the intent, goals, or orientation of the shooter. Many of the mass shooters are wanting to cover ground and shoot as many people as possible. They know they have limited time and limited ammo and hitting targets is a goal, not necessarily standing over each person and taking a pulse to make sure they are dead.

[BGutzman]

If you want to play dead, go for it... IF you live great.. if not well dont say you werent warned.... Well you would be dead so I guess we got that part covered...

[youngunz4life]

...because I was just looking for this thread(I think I must've replied to it a ways back but your response just made it appear in the new posts).

the bottom line in my mind is playing dead can work and/or I should say: it is possible that you have no other seeable/viable option to save your life. As a last resort, playing dead is an option in my playbook. For me it is a last resort without a doubt though. Also, it can't be used because you are scared or frozen so to speak. You might be frightened obviously, but that would be a Bad reason to use the 'play dead' hailmary.

[BGutzman]

That my friend is where we disagree.. If I have no gun I have a brain to determine whatever partial protection may be available and hands and feet and given no other choices I will die on my feet.

Propose and feel as you wish, I’m not sure what your real point is, but were different people so its not unexpected to have differences.

My point is Id rather trust my fate to my own brain and hands than praying for luck that they think I’m dead. In my life I have found that bad people usually make more mistakes when you confront them then when you don’t.

In the military way back prior to 911 and all that stuff one tactic to break up an overwhelming attack was to assault the attack and get close to your enemy so they can’t shoot without risking shooting each other.

[Double Naught Spy]

My point is Id rather trust my fate to my one brain and hands than praying for luck that they think I’m dead. In my life I have found that bad people usually make more mistakes when you confront them then when you don’t.

Choose wisely. Al Gratia made this call as well at Luby's. IF you live great.. if not well dont say you weren't warned. See how easy it is to make the logic work both ways?

In the military way back prior to 911 and all that stuff one tactic to break up an overwhelming attack was to assault the attack and get close to your enemy so they can’t shoot without risking shooting each other.

This usually isn't a problem for much such situations as noted in the OP. Usually, it is single shooters, not always, but usually. Even then, who says they care on iota if they shoot their partner or not.

[Double Naught Spy]

From the Norway Utoeya Island attacks...
Adrian Pracon played dead after being hurt and hid amongst the bodies of others.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259772
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,1060717.story

"He shot everyone in the group, one by one," the youth league leader told Aftenposten. "I lay on the ground and played dead. He came up to check that everyone was dead. He … was so close that I felt the warmth of his weapon."

http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/world/n...odies/5cfd0026