New handgun user training?

[Rtwinger]

I have taken the basic class -- how to shoot a gun --and have been to the range trying several guns -- probably have fired less than 300 rounds.

So other than selecting the gun for me and shooting are there other tips you experienced users would suggest?

What target distance should I practice -- 7 yds, 25 yds?

Should I be slow and deliberate or work on short bursts?

My goal is to be to able to competently and safely carry a gun for personal defense.

I welcome and appreciate your comments.

[Eagle0711]

Most self defense situations tke place at less than 20'. More likely arms length. So I would practice at close range.

Just be smooth and don't fumble. Make sure that your gun will go bang.

You'll be fine, if you are willing.

[MC 1911]

I'm sure you will get a lot of different opinions but I always recommend starting at 3 yds then moving to 5,7,&10. Take your time and when you can consistantly group then work on speed.

Any bad habits you have will be magnified the farther out you shoot.Most of all, practice as much as possible!!

[45Gunner]

Most self defense gun fights are statistically at close range.

I would start at either 25 feet and move in incrementally to close in, say 3 feet. Work each distance until you are smooth and able to consistently do small groupings.

Once you have built your confidence and abilities with the above, then do the exact same except try double taps. It will help you develop even more gun control and make you acutely aware of recoil, muzzle rise, etc. This will indeed take more practice and drill than the first exercise. As you teach yourself to control the gun, you will indeed notice an increase in your confidence and skill level. Always be in control. Do not let the gun control you.

When you become comfortable with the above, strive for triple tap accuracy. Center mass should be your main target area. Remember to practice your breathing, trigger control, and follow-thru. And you don't have to be at the range to practice that. You can do it in the comfort of your chair at home while watching TV, for example. Notice where the muzzle is after the trigger has broken. Remember to squeeze the trigger, not yank it back.

Good luck....have fun shooting. This is a great forum to ask for advice as there are lots of knowledgeable people willing and able to share their experience.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Rtwinger

...My goal is to be to able to competently and safely carry a gun for personal defense...

If that is your goal, the first step is to accept and recognize that the courses some States require to qualify for a CHL are inadequate.

And if you really are interested in becoming truly competent, I'm a big proponent of good professional training. Among other things, there is really no good substitute for a qualified instructor watching what you are doing and coaching you based on what he sees. Remember that practice doesn't make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.

Practice also makes permanent. If you keep practicing doing something wrong, you will become an expert at doing it wrong. So some good training shows you what to practice and how to practice it. It thus helps you avoid bad habits which later on can be an awful hassle to try to correct.

If there's an NRA certified instructor in your area offering NRA Personal Protection Inside the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home classes, taking both classes would be a great way to start. They will give you a good grounding in practical marksmanship and gun handling, and they will be a good foundation if you decide you want to go even further. They also go into legal issues around the use of force and both mindset and tactics.

Competently carrying a gun for self defense involves more than just marksmanship.

[1] You will want to know and understand the legal issues -- when the use of lethal force would be legally justified, when it would not be, and how to tell the difference. You will want to understand how to handle the legal aftermath of a violent encounter and how to articulate why, in a particular situation, you decided to take whatever action you did.

[2] You will want to know about levels of alertness and mental preparedness to take action. You will want to understand how to assess situations and make difficult decisions quickly under stress. You will want to know about the various stress induced physiological and psychological effects that you might face during and after a violent encounter.

[3] You will want to develop good practical proficiency with your gun. That includes practical marksmanship, i. e., being able to deploy your gun and get good hits quickly at various distances. It also includes skills such as moving and shooting, use of cover and concealment, reloading quickly, clearing malfunctions, and moving safely with a loaded gun.

The NRA Personal Protection classes only scratch the surface, but they at least touch on these subjects and get you started on the right track. From there, you can go as far as you'd like.

Personally, I take classes on a regular basis and have just recently returned from taking the Intermediate Handgun class at Gunsite in Arizona. I practice regularly, both dry fire and live fire drills. I practice presenting my gun from the holster and engaging targets at various distances. I practice from about 5 yards out to 25 yards. Practice close in tends to involve drawing and quick shot strings. And although most defensive encounters are close range events, I practice at longer distances as well. Shooting at longer distances helps develop and maintain basic marksmanship skills, especially trigger control.

Is all this really necessary? That will be up to you to decide for yourself. It will depend on your personal view of what you need to be able to do to believe yourself to be competent. But --

• If we wind up in a violent confrontation, we can't know ahead of time what will happen and how it will happen. And thus we can't know ahead of time what we will need to be able to do to solve our problem.
  
  
• If we find ourselves in a violent confrontation, we will respond with whatever skills we have available at the time. If all you know how to do is stand there and shoot, that will probably be what you'll do. It might be good enough, or it might not be.
  
  
• The more we can do, and the better we can do it, the more likely we'll be to be able to respond appropriately and effectively. The more we can do, and the better we can do it, the luckier we'll be.

[raimius]

I recommend taking additional classes.

For the basics of accuracy and speed. I recommend going for fist-sized groupings at 7 yards, as a start. Once you can get that (accuracy), work on developing speed. Try to decrease your time between shots, while maintaining some accuracy (no more than paper-plate sized groups, trying for fist-sized).

I recommend reading Andy Stanford's book Surgical Speed Shooting

[pax]

fiddletown speaks truth. Heed that advice!

pax

[C0untZer0]

Hey RTwinger, I think so far you're doing everything right.

You're even asking the right questions.

If you read through the threads you'll see examples of people who come on to the forum: "Hello this is my first time posting, I'm new to firearms, I just bought pistol xyz, does anyone know if any company makes a suppressor for it?"

You are doing things right, getting educated, You will get tremendous benefit from taking the approach that you are taking. Usually in any class you pick up exercises that you can remember and put in your own training tool box... like loading a snap cap randomly in one of your magazines and seeing if you flinch or squint or jerk the trigger on that round - there's lots and lots of very good training exercises.

As far as what range should you train at. One of the things that I personally experienced was that when I was trying to get tight groups in the chest area of a silhouette target doing rapid fire shooting, I really couldn't. It was like I wasn't able to do it just by willing myself to do it. But when I spent more time working on breathing, sight picture and trigger control on bullseye targets, and got a lot of practice in on that, when I switched back to closer range rapid fire on silhouettes - my groups were tighter.

That’s counter-intuitive right? You’d think that if I wanted to get better at silhouette shooting I would have to spend more time doing silhouette shooting but that wasn’t the case.

Can’t stress training enough. The other thing is the coaching you get from it. It’s like in the major leagues every team has a hitting coach and a pitching coach. Don Cooper on the White Sox is a great example… if he sees a change in the throwing motion of one of his pitchers, they get together and work to get back on track. Shooting is the same way… about a month into doing rapid fire silhouette shooting I started throwing 2 rounds out of every 5. So the guy who was teaching me started looking to see which rounds those were – it was the second and the last shot. And he actually talked to me and got me to think about what I was doing, and what was going through my mind and we were able to correct it. One of the things I was doing was just trying to go fast, and that basically doesn’t work. It’s about developing body mechanics that are the same each and every time, developing a fluid motion and repeating it over and over – it’s not about hurrying. Having a coach to point that out to you is invaluable.

[kazanski612]

Amen to all of the above.

The goal at the beginning is to get comfortable with the operation, proper grip, stance, sight alignment, breathing, trigger control... and safety above all else. Personally, I could care less how well you shoot the first 500 rounds, let alone at what distance you practice. It's meaningless.

Learn the fundamentals, then later down the road you can start working on your groups at different distances.

I've just seen way too many people screw up all the fundamentals but then get frustrated when they can't hit the broad side of a barn.

[C0untZer0]

^ yep - and it's always the same story if a shooter can't stay on paper - it's because the pistol is a peice of junk ! Grrrrrrr

[dcody40]

And my quarters worth, practice, say this about a dozen times, makes you better, you learn and get better, you can even find someone to coach you, and I'm not talking about the mall ninja types, a real experienced shooter/coach can probably use anything your shooting and get you doing even better. But again, practice, also enjoy it as a sport. The results will speak for themselves, you don't need a certain score, you just need to hit what your intending to hit, you will gain new motor skills in gun handling, and with enough practice, you won't have to think each step to acuracy, it will come natural. Did I say practice enough !. Oh and yes to the understanding of the total life responsibility of having to defend yourself in a real shoot situation, no training can ever even get close to that situation. And for the bombshell that some may have overlooked or forgotten, is this.
If you ever do have a shoot. And you survive it. TIP, don't run your mouth with the responding LEO's. your the idiot at that time, anyone who says different is also a blubbering idiot at this time also. This is why LEO's get the good old administrative leave after a shooting, and with good training, both on the Officers side and the interviewiing legal/IA team, they should realize your brain is on overload (idiot) mode just after the situation. So it's not the best time to start talking to anyone. I have said this before to some of my former customers, Shut up, don't talk, but say Lawyer( as a citizen) Again, don't babble anything. It will be investigated by hopefully real pro's and the truth will come out. Then you may get your day in court, but maybe not. depending on the situation. They are all different, so there is no set process. But one, Lawyer. and shut up.....enough said, I think you should understand this fairly well.
And no offense intended to the mall ninja's out there, they mean well also. But that's why we call them mall ninja's lol...

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by dcody40

...Oh and yes to the understanding of the total life responsibility of having to defend yourself in a real shoot situation, no training can ever even get close to that situation. And for the bombshell that some may have overlooked or forgotten, is this.
If you ever do have a shoot. And you survive it. TIP, don't run your mouth with the responding LEO's....

For some good information on these issues, check out:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=429263

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/...ayes-SDLaw.pdf

http://www.useofforce.us/

[dcody40]

Yes, very good points, my issue is from experience and the total pressure, stress, adrenalin rush, and the drop, also shock, And this is from someone who is very good with firearms, and old pro, the designated shooter in some situations. For real now, if you did get into a real world issue, most people are so fired up with shock, and adrenalin drop, they can't speak very clearly for some time after the situation, I have seen people so messed up they don't even know they are still holding their handgun, and the trigger finger is in the wrong place, some just sit shaking, some are crying, YES, crying. Everybody reacts different in a REAL Shoot situation. Some Do handle it much better than others, but most are not in the condition to start answering official report type questions from anyone. Only the basics if that.
And some will need a change of undershorts also. And a towel to dry off the 100 gallons of sweat that appeared on them for some reason. Just being real here poeple, it's not like on the TV, you know everyones cool and macho and are just fine ready to just get on with the day, and tell all the war stories.
This is or can be a very traumatic situation for anyone, including the LEO's. Please don't forget that LEO's are people also with the same feelings as everyone else, and regardless of the street experience they deal with that quite often hardens them up allot, they still have feelings, but are able to file them away most of the time to be remembered or reacted to at another time. Normally this is after the job is done, they would sneak away somewhere to get their head back on straight. Been There done that !...Enough.

[Rj1972]

I have my guns for both home defense and carry, so I measured out the longest distance in my house (which is from my bedroom door to the front door) and I try to train at that range (11 yards) for that purpose. I also know that if I'm out carrying it's likely to be much closer, so I make sure to do some 7 and 3 yards as well. my groups are pretty lousy, but admittedly I don't do a lot of slow fire. I shoot a lot of from the ready to on target (which is what I assume would be happening in my home) and fire quickly. I do this probably the most.

I also shoot looking at the sights and also point shooting (not looking at the sights) since they say you're often unlikely to look at the sights in a shtf scenario. At least in that regard I'd like to know about where I'm going to put it.

I'm not in any way advocating that YOU do the above as part of your training regimen, I'm just letting you know what I do to help myself feel comfortable with my own abilities.

[ClydeFrog]

For new or entry level handgun shooters, I'd say the best way to practice & gauge real shooting skills is being able to hit a 3"x5" index card at 30'.
This was a standard used by Richard Marcinko(US Navy, 0-5, retired; www.DickMarcinko.com ).
"Demo Dick" Marcinko was the US Navy SEAL officer who started & ran the highly rated SEAL Team Six(AKA: DEVGRU or Development Group). Marcinko's non fiction books Rogue Warrior & Red Cell go into details about his counter-terrorist career.
Once you mastered firing at a index card, move on to low light, one hand or weak hand shooting, firing from different positions, etc.
I'd avoid the "point" or "CQB" methods for regular self-defense or marksmanship training. Some gunners use these drills but it's better for advanced or well trained gun owners/armed professionals.
In closing, I'd suggest more in depth skill training from a top source like Massad Ayoob or Thunder Ranch. Many new classes & firearm instructors have sprung up all over in the last 10-15 years but some are hot dogs, posers or lack any real teaching background.
For videos or good guides/books check www.Gunvideo.com www.Paladin-Press.com www.NRA.org .
Stay safe & enjoy the shooting sports:
ClydeFrog

[TylerD45ACP]

Get a nice 9MM a good SD starting caliber and its cheap so you can practice alot. I want a CZ 75B supposed to be excellent but get what fits you. Practice 20-30ft. to start. Mostly 20 I would stay at that range until you become proficient at it. Try shooting slow and group tight and then try faster. Try double taps if you want. Move the distance as you get better. Thats my opinion and it worked for me. I can double dap a 45 (1911) at 21ft and have the holes touching most of the time. Its all practice, I consider myself a decent shot.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by TylerD45ACP

...Thats my opinion and it worked for me. I can double dap a 45 (1911) at 21ft and have the holes touching most of the time. Its all practice, I consider myself a decent shot.

That's fine, but --

• How well do you know and understand the legal issues -- when the use of lethal force would be legally justified, when it would not be, and how to tell the difference? Don't you want to understand how to handle the legal aftermath of a violent encounter and how to articulate why, in a particular situation, you decided to take whatever action you did?
  
  
• How well do you understand levels of alertness and mental preparedness to take action? Do you understand how to assess situations and make difficult decisions quickly under stress? Do you understand the various stress induced physiological and psychological effects that you might face during and after a violent encounter?
  
  
• How proficient are you really with your gun? How quickly and consistently can you draw your gun and get good hits quickly at various distances? How well can you move and shoot or shoot while moving? How are you at moving safely with a loaded gun? How quickly can you do a speed reload? A tactical reload? Can you use cover or concealment, and do you understand the difference? How are you at quickly clearing malfunctions? How are you at quick target identification and acquisition? How good are you at engaging multiple targets?

There's a lot more to defensive pistol craft than good double taps at 7 yards.

[MikeNice81]

Fiddle offers some sound advice to follow in my opinion.

Measure the longest possible clear shot in your house. You might be suprised how far you need to shoot. For me it is about 12 yards. So, I work on "combat accuracy" at that distance. For me that means 4 shots in a 5" group in less than 5 seconds.

Measure the longest shot you might need to take at home. Then make sure you can get multiple hits at a decent speed. To get there you need to first master the basics. Slow steady shooting that reinforces the basics is the most important. Shooting a gun is like playing a guitar. You aren't going to play fast and sound good on day one. You definitely aren't going to shoot fast and shoot well on day one.

I would spend most of my time shooting at 5 to 7 yards. Once you have the basics down, and hit groups you are satisfied with, start speeding up. When you you start getting consistent and speedy move back. You'll have to slow down for the distance, but you will pick it back up. Keep moving back as far as you want. Just remember speed will decrease with distance. 4-5-5 at twelve yards is a decently speedy drill.

Remember to master the basics and move on from there.

[threegun]

Fiddletown has it down pretty good.

I would add for a beginner to practice gun manipulations and presentation more than marksmanship in the beginning. Learn every crack, crevasse, and button on your gun. It should be second nature in your hand. Always use the proper grip. Learn to use both hands. Dry fire at home. This will translate into better results at the range and will prepare you for taking professional training as they will demand safe gun handling skills and you will need to be proficient in manipulating the gun to follow their instruction.

[TylerD45ACP]

Yea good advice. I do happen to know about laws in my area. I know the alert levels and that under stress it will become more difficult. No kidding there's a lot more to shooting than double taps at 7 yds. Im actually pretty quick presenting the weapon and do practice all of what you mentioned. I obviously dont just stand there and shoot at paper, well one place I do, but the other allows you to move and practice with your pistol in different aspects more so. Such as practicing malfunc., tac reloads, moving n shooting, multiple target, cover and concealment the difference? Really? Basically all of what you said I know and am able to do and understand mentality. Im no master combat handgunner but consider myself pretty decent.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by TylerD45ACP

...Basically all of what you said I know and am able to do and understand mentality....

Then keep up the good work.

[TylerD45ACP]

Thanks. There are some things I am not as proficient in as I would like to be due to time . The major concern I have is how I will react when it actually does happen. I train and go over and over what I would do and how in my head. However when SHTF and I am under serious stress I wonder how I would actually react. My situational awarness is always good. Im looking for more training by the way. Any very intensive Combat Handgun schools you recommend fiddletown, I dont care if I have to travel. I went to two in my area, one was kind of half-a$$ed the other was very helpful. However, I know there are top notch classes out there and want to take one of the best. I would really like to try those simmunitions. Any recommendations?

[Skans]

To start with I'd practice handgun target shooting at between 15-25 feet. Of course this depends a little on what type of handgun you are shooting. Smaller "pocket pistols" intended for concealed carry are made for closer range shooting. Heavier, full-sized target guns are capable of longer range accuracy.

To start with, I'd stick with the fundamentals - slow, controlled two handed shooting, concentrating on smooth trigger pull without flinching. There is a chart that tells you, fairly accurately, what "bad habits" you are using in firing a pistol, depending on where your shot lands in relation to the target center. Here is an example of a "Handgun Correction Target" chart:

The only way to gain control over your gun and obtain accuracy and constancy is to practice and study what you are doing wring with each shot. This, safe gun handling, and being comfortable and familiar with your firearm are the three things you really need to work on first, before moving on to other intermediate or advanced techniques.

[threegun]

TylerD45acp, They say you will fight as you train. They say you will act on autopilot with enough training and the way you have trained when surprised. In the few times I have been so surprised, I have responded as trained. My reactions automatic yet under control from my brain as to shooting or not shooting. Very weird feeling but definitely makes me feel that with enough repetition you will react and fight as trained.

In one of my incidents a man pulled what turned out to be a bb gun from under his left arm ala shoulder holster. He then pointed it at my coworker before finally asking to pawn it. He was wearing a trench coat and it wasn't very cold outside at the time. When I saw his hand going under the jacket headed for a potential firearm, I began to draw (without thinking). As I recognized the gun I was climbing his leg with my pistol (I had his profile). I remember thinking front site front site over and over plus how skinny he was plus fearing a miss would allow my coworker to get shot plus how slow I felt and finally that the gun was a bb gun so don't shoot. All these things in around 1/2 second, the time it took me to draw back then.

At the time I would say front site in my head during practice and focus on placing that site on target before firing. I would also draw dozens of times a day while at work.

Moral of the story is they are right you will likely fight as you train.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by TylerD45ACP

...There are some things I am not as proficient in as I would like to be due to time . The major concern I have is how I will react when it actually does happen. I train and go over and over what I would do and how in my head. However when SHTF and I am under serious stress I wonder how I would actually react. My situational awarness is always good. Im looking for more training by the way. Any very intensive Combat Handgun schools you recommend fiddletown, I dont care if I have to travel. I went to two in my area, one was kind of half-a$$ed the other was very helpful. However, I know there are top notch classes out there and want to take one of the best. I would really like to try those simmunitions. Any recommendations?

I certainly support getting additional training.

I've taken three classes at Gunsite, just north of Prescott, Arizona; and I highly recommend them. There have excellent facilities and excellent instructors. I recently took the Intermediate Handgun class there and wrote this article. You don't get into simunitions until some of the more advanced classes, however.

I also recommend classes from Massad Ayoob. He's especially strong covering the legal side of the use of force.

I've also taken classes from Louis Awerbuck. He's an excellent instructor as well.

I've heard good things about Thunder Ranch, John Farnam, Tom Givens and the Firearms Academy of Seattle, but have no personal experience.

Taking classes is a good way to learn to perform under stress. Classes can be stressful because you're being expected to perform amongst strangers, and no one likes to embarrass himself. And IDPA or USPSA competition is also a good way to get practice performing under stress.

Maybe some other cans suggest some other schools. You start a thread asking for suggestions.