Blackpowder rifle

Mukremin · October 19, 2018, 11:38 AM

I am new to the forum. I live in the Netherlands, i don't know if there are any members from outside America

I just got into collecting rifles. It is not easy in Holland to do this since all kind of guns are illegal. I have two mausers which are legal because they are made unclear according to the laws. However, i bought an old rifle, i think mid 19th century which i failed to identify. Could you help me with it? See pictures:
https://i.imgur.com/lKtOSGb.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/AfrR13Q.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/I7CDlFi.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/W6zRkqZ.jpg

Mukremin · October 19, 2018, 11:39 AM

a couple more pics:
https://i.imgur.com/XV7CWOv.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7BZXq20.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gxHHT8Y.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pDj6KSA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FxcCiKr.jpg

Hawg · October 19, 2018, 12:22 PM

You can't identify it because it's made up from parts from several different guns.

Mukremin · October 19, 2018, 12:35 PM

That is not a good thing then... Damn, was happy i had a good rifle. So is it possible to identify the parts? And with the current state, would it be able to fire?

Pahoo · October 19, 2018, 12:53 PM

Quote:

That is not a good thing then... Damn, was happy i had a good rifle. So is it possible to identify the parts? And with the current state, would it be able to fire?

I suggest you do a more detailed inspection before attempting to fire. I am seeing more than one red-flag. Looks like a large bore musket and to not think it's military. Then again, on your last picture, I see what looks like a bayonet lug. Check the bore for rifling and rust. I'm going to bet that you will not like what you see. Then pull the lock and check to internal surface of the plate for any information. Do the same on the barrel and check the underside. You can also pull the buttplate for any stampings. Eventually, if you are comfortable in doing so, take it to a Gun Smith for further inspection. …

Sorry and;
Be Safe !!!

Mukremin · October 19, 2018, 01:11 PM

So we are safe to assume it maybe is a hunting musket not for military purposes. I think i will not attempt any firing since i do not have the experience. But will try to clean it a bit.

Bayonet lug? There is a loading stick there which I can pull out.

Is it possible an expert has pulled this musket together? What name does this type of rifle has?

Bimus · October 19, 2018, 01:51 PM

Old muzzle loader really need to be checked to see if they have been left loaded from years ago . I have heard of old guns that where found having a complete load on top of the first load . Good pictures

Mukremin · October 19, 2018, 02:24 PM

That's what its called? A muzzle loaded musket?
I saw a guy on YouTube cleaning the barrel with water first. Perhaps I should start with that first.

For the experts here, i can post more pictures from certain angles or parts if needed.

Hawg · October 19, 2018, 03:54 PM

The stock needs major repairs before you attempt to fire it. The muzzle looks like it was cut off with a hacksaw. The drum and nipple look blacksmith made. It might be possible to identify the barrel if you could get it out of the stock but you'd probably have to cut those barrel bands to do so.

ThomasT · October 19, 2018, 04:43 PM

That gun is commonly known as a "Wall Hanger".

LineStretcher · October 19, 2018, 05:56 PM

It sounds like you have as much experience as I do with these rifles. I have none so I would try to find a relic or antique fire arms expert to help me figure it out. I think it's one of those cases where hands on inspection by an expert is best. I would not shoot it unless an expert was willing to and I could watch from a safe distance. Just my thoughts.

**4V50 Gary** · October 19, 2018, 08:32 PM

Belgium was still making muzzle loaders in the 1950s for the African trade. I have one such gun that has a schutzen buttplate, back action lock with a separate plate for the frizzen and frizzen spring. It has a crude brass buffalo head (with horns) tacked onto the forearm. What an oddity.

Mukremin · October 19, 2018, 11:41 PM

Wall hanger haha that is a good one. Unfortunately that may be the fate of this gun.

Naah, i won't fire unless like you guys said to let an expert check it first.

Will try to search for numbers or names by removing some parts. Hope i can assemble it back.

Thank you so much for the assistance guys.

**4V50 Gary** · October 20, 2018, 10:24 AM

Take the barrel to an auto shop that has a magnaflux machine. That will tell you if there are any fissures.

Hawg · October 20, 2018, 10:37 AM

To be perfectly honest I'd worry more about the stock coming apart than the barrel letting go.

Pahoo · October 20, 2018, 07:33 PM

Quote:

I have none so I would try to find a relic or antique fire arms expert to help me figure it out.

I am not aware of anyone in this forum that is an expert. Just a bunch of good guys with a truck-load of experience. We have gotten our fingers in the mouse trap more than once and just willing to pass our experience on to fellas like yourself. Safety is our primary concern. …..

I have brought a number of wall-hangers back to life. I have also deactivated a small number for fear of someone potentially getting hurt. They become parts-guns. For now, if this piece was cleaned up, it would make a very nice wall-hanger, so don't give up on it completely. I once found a small compass in the buttstock of an old M/L and a name was scribed on the base. …..

Be Safe !!!

Jim Watson · October 20, 2018, 08:09 PM

I agree with Gary, it looks like a trade gun cheaply made for sale to natives in overseas colonies. It is in poor condition with cracked stock and rusty metal. I am not going to say it is safe to fire, I would not. Maybe Pahoo could restore it to operation.

If you paid much money for it, the seller was taking advantage of your inexperience and a restricted market.

Sorry.

Mukremin · October 21, 2018, 05:05 AM

I think i will stick to cleaning it a bit and adding it to my collection of non functional weapons. Not going to give up yet

I don't even know if it's Dutch made, perhaps Belgian not sure. It makes sense though that it could be cheaply made to export to natives. Thanks for all the help and support.

One more question, by purely looking at it. What period would you rate it was built? And what exact period were these kind of muskets used?

I paid 80 euro for this piece.

Hawg · October 21, 2018, 02:49 PM

The price was about right for the shape it's in. IF it was made as a complete gun it could have been made anytime from the mid 19th century up until the first part of the 20th. My WAG would be from 1850-1880. If it was made out of parts as I suspect your guess is as good as mine as to when it was done.

bamaranger · October 21, 2018, 08:29 PM

I see that red tape on pics of a variety of firearms coming out of the middle east,........any chance your rifle was purchased from a vet from the recent trouble, who may have seized it as a war trophy?

Sure there's red tape everywhere, but that seems much like the tape from that region......apparently so common on firearms there.

Mukremin · October 22, 2018, 03:20 AM

@bamaranger; i am not sure, the guy i bought it from claimed also not to be an expert and did not know the origins. He had two of these guns, the other was in worse shape than this. I also looked into that red tape, but could not find anything on it. It has some odd letters on it.

pwc · October 22, 2018, 06:25 PM

Before you do anything, put the ramrod down the barrel and mark it. Then lay it along the barrel; the end of the ramrod should be real close to the flash hole. If it is 1"-2" inches from the hole, chances are the gun has powder and ball in it. Water will kill the powder for sure if it hasn't already. But the water must get to the powder either thru the nipple or down barell past the rust. Be safe first!

The barrel bands look like they were driven down for friction fit, with a screwdriver with the nicks in the front, and they have been removed at least once by the nicks on the back. Metal to wood fit is extremely poor in the pictures, and may be the cause of the cracks, not just age. If I had to guess, I'd say it was a trade gun, or maybe manufactured or made up in one of the Pakistan / Afganastan local back alley gunshops.

For me, I wouldn't put much time in on it before I hung it over the fireplace. Just my opinion tho.

**4V50 Gary** · October 23, 2018, 10:16 AM

Pago - more details on the compass. Was it hidden or inletted? How about the iron from screws, buttplate or triggerguard? Got a picture?

drobs · October 25, 2018, 09:23 AM

Mukremin - 1st off, welcome to the forum.
I don't have anything to add on the current rifle in question but I'm curious as to what else you have in your collection. Would you mind showing off some of your other guns?

Mukremin · October 26, 2018, 05:17 AM

Thank you for the warm welcome. of course, i have these pictures from my 1938 Turkish Mauser made in Ankara. It is of course disabled according to the Dutch gun laws. So my guns can only be used as wall hangers. What can you do? Laws are laws

October 19, 2018, 11:38 AM	#1
Mukremin Junior Member Join Date: October 19, 2018 Posts: 10	Blackpowder rifle I am new to the forum. I live in the Netherlands, i don't know if there are any members from outside America I just got into collecting rifles. It is not easy in Holland to do this since all kind of guns are illegal. I have two mausers which are legal because they are made unclear according to the laws. However, i bought an old rifle, i think mid 19th century which i failed to identify. Could you help me with it? See pictures: https://i.imgur.com/lKtOSGb.jpg https://i.imgur.com/AfrR13Q.jpg https://i.imgur.com/I7CDlFi.jpg https://i.imgur.com/W6zRkqZ.jpg

October 19, 2018, 08:32 PM	#12
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	Belgium was still making muzzle loaders in the 1950s for the African trade. I have one such gun that has a schutzen buttplate, back action lock with a separate plate for the frizzen and frizzen spring. It has a crude brass buffalo head (with horns) tacked onto the forearm. What an oddity. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

October 20, 2018, 10:24 AM	#14
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	Take the barrel to an auto shop that has a magnaflux machine. That will tell you if there are any fissures. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

October 21, 2018, 08:29 PM	#20
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,295	red tape I see that red tape on pics of a variety of firearms coming out of the middle east,........any chance your rifle was purchased from a vet from the recent trouble, who may have seized it as a war trophy? Sure there's red tape everywhere, but that seems much like the tape from that region......apparently so common on firearms there.

October 22, 2018, 06:25 PM	#22
pwc Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2018 Location: AZ Posts: 236	Before you do anything, put the ramrod down the barrel and mark it. Then lay it along the barrel; the end of the ramrod should be real close to the flash hole. If it is 1"-2" inches from the hole, chances are the gun has powder and ball in it. Water will kill the powder for sure if it hasn't already. But the water must get to the powder either thru the nipple or down barell past the rust. Be safe first! The barrel bands look like they were driven down for friction fit, with a screwdriver with the nicks in the front, and they have been removed at least once by the nicks on the back. Metal to wood fit is extremely poor in the pictures, and may be the cause of the cracks, not just age. If I had to guess, I'd say it was a trade gun, or maybe manufactured or made up in one of the Pakistan / Afganastan local back alley gunshops. For me, I wouldn't put much time in on it before I hung it over the fireplace. Just my opinion tho. Last edited by pwc; October 22, 2018 at 06:38 PM.

October 19, 2018, 11:39 AM	#2
Mukremin Junior Member Join Date: October 19, 2018 Posts: 10	a couple more pics: https://i.imgur.com/XV7CWOv.jpg https://i.imgur.com/7BZXq20.jpg https://i.imgur.com/gxHHT8Y.jpg https://i.imgur.com/pDj6KSA.jpg https://i.imgur.com/FxcCiKr.jpg

October 19, 2018, 12:22 PM	#3
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	You can't identify it because it's made up from parts from several different guns.

October 19, 2018, 12:35 PM	#4
Mukremin Junior Member Join Date: October 19, 2018 Posts: 10	That is not a good thing then... Damn, was happy i had a good rifle. So is it possible to identify the parts? And with the current state, would it be able to fire?

October 19, 2018, 01:11 PM	#6
Mukremin Junior Member Join Date: October 19, 2018 Posts: 10	So we are safe to assume it maybe is a hunting musket not for military purposes. I think i will not attempt any firing since i do not have the experience. But will try to clean it a bit. Bayonet lug? There is a loading stick there which I can pull out. Is it possible an expert has pulled this musket together? What name does this type of rifle has?

October 19, 2018, 01:51 PM	#7
Bimus Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2018 Location: Farmington NM Posts: 122	Old muzzle loader really need to be checked to see if they have been left loaded from years ago . I have heard of old guns that where found having a complete load on top of the first load . Good pictures

October 19, 2018, 02:24 PM	#8
Mukremin Junior Member Join Date: October 19, 2018 Posts: 10	That's what its called? A muzzle loaded musket? I saw a guy on YouTube cleaning the barrel with water first. Perhaps I should start with that first. For the experts here, i can post more pictures from certain angles or parts if needed.

October 19, 2018, 03:54 PM	#9
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	The stock needs major repairs before you attempt to fire it. The muzzle looks like it was cut off with a hacksaw. The drum and nipple look blacksmith made. It might be possible to identify the barrel if you could get it out of the stock but you'd probably have to cut those barrel bands to do so.

October 19, 2018, 04:43 PM	#10
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,751	That gun is commonly known as a "Wall Hanger".

October 19, 2018, 05:56 PM	#11
LineStretcher Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2018 Posts: 619	It sounds like you have as much experience as I do with these rifles. I have none so I would try to find a relic or antique fire arms expert to help me figure it out. I think it's one of those cases where hands on inspection by an expert is best. I would not shoot it unless an expert was willing to and I could watch from a safe distance. Just my thoughts.

October 19, 2018, 11:41 PM	#13
Mukremin Junior Member Join Date: October 19, 2018 Posts: 10	Wall hanger haha that is a good one. Unfortunately that may be the fate of this gun. Naah, i won't fire unless like you guys said to let an expert check it first. Will try to search for numbers or names by removing some parts. Hope i can assemble it back. Thank you so much for the assistance guys.

October 20, 2018, 10:37 AM	#15
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	To be perfectly honest I'd worry more about the stock coming apart than the barrel letting go.

October 20, 2018, 08:09 PM	#17
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,528	I agree with Gary, it looks like a trade gun cheaply made for sale to natives in overseas colonies. It is in poor condition with cracked stock and rusty metal. I am not going to say it is safe to fire, I would not. Maybe Pahoo could restore it to operation. If you paid much money for it, the seller was taking advantage of your inexperience and a restricted market. Sorry.

October 21, 2018, 05:05 AM	#18
Mukremin Junior Member Join Date: October 19, 2018 Posts: 10	I think i will stick to cleaning it a bit and adding it to my collection of non functional weapons. Not going to give up yet I don't even know if it's Dutch made, perhaps Belgian not sure. It makes sense though that it could be cheaply made to export to natives. Thanks for all the help and support. One more question, by purely looking at it. What period would you rate it was built? And what exact period were these kind of muskets used? I paid 80 euro for this piece.

October 21, 2018, 02:49 PM	#19
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	The price was about right for the shape it's in. IF it was made as a complete gun it could have been made anytime from the mid 19th century up until the first part of the 20th. My WAG would be from 1850-1880. If it was made out of parts as I suspect your guess is as good as mine as to when it was done.

October 22, 2018, 03:20 AM	#21
Mukremin Junior Member Join Date: October 19, 2018 Posts: 10	@bamaranger; i am not sure, the guy i bought it from claimed also not to be an expert and did not know the origins. He had two of these guns, the other was in worse shape than this. I also looked into that red tape, but could not find anything on it. It has some odd letters on it.

October 23, 2018, 10:16 AM	#23
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	Pago - more details on the compass. Was it hidden or inletted? How about the iron from screws, buttplate or triggerguard? Got a picture? __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

October 25, 2018, 09:23 AM	#24
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	Mukremin - 1st off, welcome to the forum. I don't have anything to add on the current rifle in question but I'm curious as to what else you have in your collection. Would you mind showing off some of your other guns? __________________ NRA Life Member Last edited by drobs; October 25, 2018 at 10:27 AM.

October 26, 2018, 05:17 AM	#25
Mukremin Junior Member Join Date: October 19, 2018 Posts: 10	Thank you for the warm welcome. of course, i have these pictures from my 1938 Turkish Mauser made in Ankara. It is of course disabled according to the Dutch gun laws. So my guns can only be used as wall hangers. What can you do? Laws are laws https://i.imgur.com/5U332c3.jpg https://i.imgur.com/vZhXKz8.jpg https://i.imgur.com/7t3QzLC.jpg https://i.imgur.com/8lpgqJt.jpg ( here you can even see the old Arabic numbers, despite Turkey at that time used Latin numbers) https://i.imgur.com/oOKLFD1.jpg https://i.imgur.com/h2NI2pk.jpg And this is from a 1904 Portuguese Mauser: https://i.imgur.com/gSIylVR.jpg https://i.imgur.com/xHt7l6l.jpg https://i.imgur.com/MOivVcn.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Bk6ARmV.jpg And some pictures of a British and French WW1 bayonet, and a staff/knife/sword thing. Not sure where, when it was manufactured: https://i.imgur.com/O5sWbS4.jpg https://i.imgur.com/I5PzLYv.jpg https://i.imgur.com/1nXnl2h.jpg https://i.imgur.com/iC614EQ.jpg

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search