.357 velocities in Ruger LCR

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

I was saying that in jest. I knew what you meant.

One cannot deny that energy factors are at least one consideration in a loads performance.
To say that it's not is ridiculous. No one is saying that it's the end all, but it is most definitely one factor and a way of some comparison.

The bullet configuration, rate of burn, ability of expansion and penetration, etc are other factors.

Are you claiming that it has NO worth?

It has worth, but IMO not with a bullet that is meant solely for penetration depth and nothing else.

When it comes to ft/lbs, there's a level that is reached that is sufficient for the purpose of self defense and then there's also a level where a particular projectile's energy is beyond reasonable amounts and becomes "overkill."

A 180 grain hardcast LFN with 619 ft/lbs is overkill. I have never EVER read any publication or heard anyone who is an expert (basically a Mas Ayoob or Clint Smith type) who has advocated the use of a 180 grain .357 Magnum ammunition in a snub revolver for self defense.

There's more than price and boutique ammo reasons why I am totally opposed to factoring in that Buffalo Bore load you're so hot about.

[HighValleyRanch]

Yes, of course the load I was referring to, the Keith hardcase was developed for woods protection, not SD, but BB does make a comprable load with hollow points.

Overkill? You do realize that 10 mm approaches this level easily with many loads and bullet weight.
Even my puny .40 Kahr K40 is getting energy in the 500 foot pound range:

March 7, 2018
Kahr K40
,40 180 gr. Federal alum case 1137,1124 (517#, 505#)
.40 180 gr. Win White JHP. 1101, 1036, 1064 (485,432,449#)

[TruthTellers]

The 10mm was built for use in full size handguns where the recoil is more manageable than a snub revolver. The max power 10mm isn't even what the FBI or LEO groups wanted, it's just that 10mm is capable of that high power and it's proven popular with people who live in areas with large, dangerous animals.

The full power 10mm was so unpopular with police and FBI that .40 S&W was made instead simply because the .40 shot heavier bullets faster than 9mm in a duty pistol and the hollow points expended better.

But this isn't about 10mm or .40, it's about .357 in a snub revolver, a platform where heavy bullets are often shunned.

[HighValleyRanch]

But this isn't about 10mm or .40, it's about .357 in a snub revolver, a platform where heavy bullets are often shunned.

Like I said, the beauty of the .357 is that you can go up to 180 grain bullets and max power for woods carry, or tame it down to your beloved 9mm levels for SD. But......you cannot do that with the 9mm. It's good enough for SD, yes, and if you are just a city slicker, that's probably good enough for you. You would more correct to say that some 9mm can be as powerful as SOME .357, not that 9mm is AS powerful as .357.
Exactly what Yankee Marshall stated.

Just go get the dang 9mm LCR and be happy with it! Jeesh

[TruthTellers]

If I need a bullet 180 grains, I need something bigger than .357. The intent here was never to insinuate that 9mm is as good as .357 is for defense against large, dangerous animals.

For woods carry, there are better choices than .357. The woods where I live, you'd be hard pressed to find anything bigger than a deer, so .357 would be sufficient, further north it's moose and black bear and I'd rather have a 10mm Glock or a .44.

My focus here was what velocities .357 ammo from standard manufacturers like Federal, Winchester, Hornady, etc. get in an LCR. I know Buffalo Bore .357 is faster than 9mm, that's common knowledge at this point. If BB wasn't faster than all other .357, I'd feel ripped off with the price of that ammo!

[Cosmodragoon]

As far as BBTI, I appreciate what they are doing and was glad to kick them a few bucks to keep doing it. Their data is valuable but should be taken in context, as with gel or meat targets or whatever else. I only know of one discrepancy and that is with their .327 Federal data. Real-world chronograph numbers for the LCR reported in more than one place are considerably higher than the shortest-barrel BBTI numbers. (Here are two that I could find quickly.)

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/327mag.html

https://gundigest.com/reviews/review...oncealed-carry

https://www.tactical-life.com/firear...r-lcr-revolver

As far as comparing these rounds in the LCR or any snub-nosed revolvers, they should all get the job done. Yes, the magnum advantage grows with barrel length but it's also never really absent. The individual load matters a great deal but in general, .357 magnum is going to be more powerful than 9mm but will also kick harder. The 9mm will usually require moon clips and you've got to be okay with that. The .327 is rarer but typically offers power levels somewhere between those two, with an extra round on the wheel and relatively mild recoil.

Does anyone have data handy on hollow point expansion with the LCR 9?

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

If I need a bullet 180 grains, I need something bigger than .357.

...not necessarily. that's like sayin' if you need a 124gr bullet, you need something bigger than a 9mm. Like the 180gr in .357 it is on the heavier side of the original design bullet weight, but neither is that rare. In both cases, there are legitimate reasons for their use in their specific calibers.

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

The intent here was never to insinuate that 9mm is as good as .357 is for defense against large, dangerous animals.

Then..... I'm having a real hard time determining what your real intent here is. I consider humans as large dangerous animals. You keep telling us about the superiority of the 9mm over .357 in velocity with similar weight bullets, but when I go to my reloading manuals and look at real life numbers, I don't see it. In 124/125 gr we are talking about several hundred feet per second more velocity with .357mag max loads as compared to 9mm max loads. As much as 25% more velocity outta the .357.

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

For woods carry, there are better choices than .357.

For woods carry, there are a multitude of options. I'd put a huge amount of monies on the bet, that the majority of woods carry revolvers in the lower 48, are .357 in caliber. Again, the majority of dangerous game encountered in the woods in the same lower 48, walk on two legs. In the majority of those same lower 48, a .357 would be all one needs. Heck, in many cases, a 9mm would be sufficient.

Again, you keep insisting you are trying to make a point, but you only want to believe your small accumulation of fact, or resist all other info in trying to make that point. I have no problem with 9mm. It is a very popular and viable caliber. Part of it's popularity came from when much of it's ammo was cheap bulk ammo that was pretty anemic and had poor performance on putting down 2 legged threats. This same popularity has brought on huge developments in ammo for the caliber, for the most part, improving it's performance over the original. Funny, in that same time much .357 ammo has been downgraded to make shooting it more pleasurable ans affordable. It was kinda an over performer. Something probably coming about from being intended to shoot thru car doors and engine blocks while also being able to hunt large game with. Something never intended for 9mm. Years ago, Military sidearms were never intended to be highly lethal against man sized threats, only a means of last resort. Heck, the Marines replaced their standard issue 1911s with M-1 Carbines because if this. Most folks never realized that the carbine was never intended to serve as a primary weapon for combat infantrymen, only that it was superior for certain specialized troops(like radiomen and tank crews) than the 1911, even tho now, we consider the .45ACP the top of the heap when it comes to man-stoppers.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by buck460XVR

...not necessarily. that's like sayin' if you need a 124gr bullet, you need something bigger than a 9mm. Like the 180gr in .357 it is on the heavier side of the original design bullet weight, but neither is that rare. In both cases, there are legitimate reasons for their use in their specific calibers.

124 grain 9mm is the standard weight for 9mm and the 9mm is built for one purpose: combat. 180 grain .357 is quite rare, I can find dozens of factory loads in 125 grain and 158, but only a handful in 180.

And again, I've never read any publications where someone with lots of experience in self defense or self defense instruction has supported the use of 180 grain bullets in .357. Now, I'm not saying that if .357 is all you have and you can't afford a larger caliber that you may as well wave the white flag and say the Lord's prayer when the Grizzly comes charging, but I look at this from the perspective of someone having to choose between several options and if they live in big animal country, .357 is not the best choice.

Then..... I'm having a real hard time determining what your real intent here is. I consider humans as large dangerous animals. You keep telling us about the superiority of the 9mm over .357 in velocity with similar weight bullets, but when I go to my reloading manuals and look at real life numbers, I don't see it. In 124/125 gr we are talking about several hundred feet per second more velocity with .357mag max loads as compared to 9mm max loads. As much as 25% more velocity outta the .357.

Do those reloading manuals use a 2 inch barrel as the test barrel to get their velocity data? I've yet to see one reloading manual that uses a barrel less than 3 inches as the test barrel, .357 loses a lot of velocity going from a 3 inch barrel to a 2 inch barrel. Also, the manuals surely aren't using a 2 inch barrel for 9mm either.

My belief is 9mm is better in a snub than .357 for multiple reasons, among them being less recoil, less disorientating blast and muzzle flash, low ammo price means more time practice shooting.

Other than the Boutique ammo makers, I'm not seeing .357 velocities achieving 25% more velocity than max 9mm loads in a snub revolver. Lets factor in the Boutique .357 ammo in snub revolvers: the blast, muzzle flash, and recoil will all be much more intense than standard .357 Magnum. While there will be some .357 factory ammo that exceed 9mm velocities from a snub, it becomes a question of how much more velocity makes it worth choosing over a 9mm that you'll shoot more accurately faster? Buffalo Bore 180 grain hardcast is impressive, but it's not practical for me and many others in an LCR.

For woods carry, there are a multitude of options. I'd put a huge amount of monies on the bet, that the majority of woods carry revolvers in the lower 48, are .357 in caliber. Again, the majority of dangerous game encountered in the woods in the same lower 48, walk on two legs. In the majority of those same lower 48, a .357 would be all one needs. Heck, in many cases, a 9mm would be sufficient.

When we talk woods carry, there's two different camps: bear and hog territory and not bear and hog territory. IF you live in the former, I think .357 is the minimum caliber to carry and I'd advise people to consider larger calibers. For those who don't live in bear/hog areas, .357 is perfectly fine.

Again, you keep insisting you are trying to make a point, but you only want to believe your small accumulation of fact, or resist all other info in trying to make that point.

Boutique .357 ammo is very fast, it's noted, but I personally don't consider purchasing that ammo for the reasons of price. If it were the same price as standard .357 or 9mm, I would be more accepting of it. I don't feel for a snub revolver that's going to see use as a tool against human threats that .357 is absolutely necessary, not when 9mm is not far behind more premium .357 from the big manufacturers.

Again, this is all in relation to the LCR. I'm not talking about a 9mm/.357 Ruger Blackhawk with a 6 inch barrel. In that, it's not even a question .357 is more powerful, it's twice as powerful.

It's not a question of raw power, I made the thread to see what velocity data others were getting in the LCR in .357. The cheap stuff from Magtech and Armscor doesn't surprise me at all how slow it is, it's stuff like Remington, Federal, Speer, Winchester, and Hornady that I'd like to see data for in the LCR. If the best is 50 fps more with a 125 or 158 grain bullet, that's not enough for me to say it's worth the extra intensity of recoil and the like, but if it's 100 fps or more, then I start thinking.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

124 grain 9mm is the standard weight for 9mm and the 9mm is built for one purpose: combat.

sorry....but as soon as I read that line I had this image flash into my head.


The .380 was also built for one purpose....combat. Things is, combat against what? Certainly not against the M1903s and the M1917s of the same time period. None of which pertains to your original post. The 124s were not the standard, but were adopted because the 115s were ineffective.

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

180 grain .357 is quite rare, I can find dozens of factory loads in 125 grain and 158, but only a handful in 180.

What does that have to do with your OP?

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

And again, I've never read any publications where someone with lots of experience in self defense or self defense instruction has supported the use of 180 grain bullets in .357. Now, I'm not saying that if .357 is all you have and you can't afford a larger caliber that you may as well wave the white flag and say the Lord's prayer when the Grizzly comes charging, but I look at this from the perspective of someone having to choose between several options and if they live in big animal country, .357 is not the best choice.

..again, not pertinent. You continue to state...."I read this, I read that!". Do you have any hands on at all? Whether one used a firearm for SD or for hunting big game, the velocity from a specific barrel length is not going to change just because of purpose.

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

Do those reloading manuals use a 2 inch barrel as the test barrel to get their velocity data? I've yet to see one reloading manual that uses a barrel less than 3 inches as the test barrel, .357 loses a lot of velocity going from a 3 inch barrel to a 2 inch barrel. Also, the manuals surely aren't using a 2 inch barrel for 9mm either.

My belief is 9mm is better in a snub than .357 for multiple reasons, among them being less recoil, less disorientating blast and muzzle flash, low ammo price means more time practice shooting.

What manuals tell us if that barrel lenght is relative. Those loads giving one the highest velocities in a long barrel, will also give the same in shorter barrels. While a 9mm may lose velocity at a lesser rate when going to a shorter barrel, it is because it initially started out at a lower velocity. It's not just because of the caliber. That is your belief.

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

When we talk woods carry, there's two different camps: bear and hog territory and not bear and hog territory. IF you live in the former, I think .357 is the minimum caliber to carry and I'd advise people to consider larger calibers. For those who don't live in bear/hog areas, .357 is perfectly fine.

LOL......Lot more to it than that. Again, I see no real life experience there. I also see little or no point in continuing this conversation.

[Nanuk]

When it comes to ft/lbs, there's a level that is reached that is sufficient for the purpose of self defense and then there's also a level where a particular projectile's energy is beyond reasonable amounts and becomes "overkill."

Really? What in you mind is reasonable? If by your example 619ft lbs is the ceiling I would ask where you came by that.

I have worked the streets for close to 4 decades, I want the most powerful handgun I can carry reasonably, for me that is a 44 magnum loaded with 180 grn JHP's @ around 1450-1500 fps. I can under stand if you can't shoot that well.

I have never EVER read any publication or heard anyone who is an expert (basically a Mas Ayoob or Clint Smith type) who has advocated the use of a 180 grain .357 Magnum ammunition in a snub revolver for self defense.

When I was a cop in Ft Worth, TX in the 1980's we had a lot of robberies turned hostage situations in stores. After another cop was killed during an ambush at one I started carrying Federal 180 grn JHP's in my 6" 686 that I carried as a duty gun. I don't give a hoot what any "expert" has to say about it, they were not in my situation.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by Nanuk

Really? What in you mind is reasonable? If by your example 619ft lbs is the ceiling I would ask where you came by that.

To me, anything that spits out a bullet is reasonable because mass and velocity isn't the sole deciding factor of a bullet's effectiveness. It's shot placement. Of course, a bigger bullet is better, but a 180 grain LFN that's built to penetrate probably would go clear through any person I shot in defense and possibly kill someone I didn't intend to shoot.

I have worked the streets for close to 4 decades, I want the most powerful handgun I can carry reasonably, for me that is a 44 magnum loaded with 180 grn JHP's @ around 1450-1500 fps. I can under stand if you can't shoot that well.

Makes sense, so do I, but I'm talking about an LCR here, not a large frame revolver that has larger grip and is heavier so that it can reduce recoil. Also, you're focusing on a primary carry gun and my views of an LCR is as a backup.

When I was a cop in Ft Worth, TX in the 1980's we had a lot of robberies turned hostage situations in stores. After another cop was killed during an ambush at one I started carrying Federal 180 grn JHP's in my 6" 686 that I carried as a duty gun. I don't give a hoot what any "expert" has to say about it, they were not in my situation.

I said in a snub, not in every revolver.

What reasons did you switch to a heavier bullet? Was the cop that get killed ambushed by sumo wrestlers?

[1911_Hardball]

Originally Posted by Nanuk

BBTI is crappy data

Any supporting evidence , or just prsonal vendetta?

[2damnold4this]

I am interested in 9mm in a snub revolver for several reasons. One is that it offers a power increase that might be meaningful over .38 Special. The second reason is that 9mm might recoil less than .357 magnum in a small revolver. A third reason is that 9mm is cheaper than .38 Special or .357. A fourth reason is that it might be easier to clear and reload a snubby in 9mm than a .357 or .38 Special revolver.

The first question I would want answered is: "How does 9mm defensive ammo perform in a snub revolver compared to how it performs in a compact or subcompact autoloader?" Do we get enough velocity from a snub revolver for 9mm defensive ammo to expand properly? The answer to that seems to be yes. Correct me if I am wrong.

The second question is: "How does 9mm defensive ammo recoil compare with that of .38 Special and .357 magnum from the same weight snubby?" I have fired .357 magnum ammo from a steel framed snubby and compared it times firing .38 Special ammo from the same revolver. I am somewhat quicker with the .38s in the steel revolver but I don't carry a steel snubby on a regular basis, I carry an Airlight or Airweight. How would a 9mm fair in an Airweight or Airlight as far as recoil and my ability to shoot it quickly and accurately? I don't know but if I could get the same ballistic performance from a 9mm fired out of a G26 for a far less price in recoil than a .357 fired out of a snubby, I'd be down with that.

There may be no free lunch but if I could get 9mm compact auto ballistic performance out of an Airlight snubby without having to pay the price of .357 magnum recoil, I'd be all over that.

[TxFlyFish]

How about 38 +p? Also why would the 9mm be easier to load

[Nanuk]

Any supporting evidence , or just prsonal vendetta?

Most of their data is extrapolated, not actual crono testing.

[Nanuk]

What reasons did you switch to a heavier bullet? Was the cop that get killed ambushed by sumo wrestlers?

Actually the one that got me to switch was a Tongan. But the main reason was Plate glass.

I carry 125 grain Remington SJHP 357 mags in my snubs, both my J frame and my K frame.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Nanuk

Most of their data is extrapolated, not actual crono testing.

Not according to this: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/process.html

[2damnold4this]

I have nothing against .38 Special or 38 +p. I think those are great cartridges but a 9mm out of a compact auto tends to be more reliable in expansion than .38s. If it works as well out of a snubby and the recoil isn't bad, that would make it a great option for me.

A 9mm might be easier to reload in a snubby than a .357 magnum for a few reasons. One is that the 9mm cartridge is much shorter than the .38 Special and the .357. On a snubby, the short length of the extractor rod might not be long enough to clear a .38 or .357 case but a short and tapered 9mm case should pop right out. In a moon clip, we wouldn't have to worry about a straggler not coming out of the cylinder. A moon clip should be the same or slightly faster than a speedloader but unloading should be much more positive.

[HighValleyRanch]

A 9mm might be easier to reload in a snubby than a .357 magnum for a few reasons.

How do you do a 2 round tactical reload with a moon clip?

[2damnold4this]

I carry 125 grain Remington SJHP 357 mags in my snubs, both my J frame and my K frame.

According to Lucky Gunner, they got 1077 pfs out of the LCR with that load. That is only slightly faster than the standard pressure 9mm loads out of the 9mm lcr.

.357 link

9mm lcr link

[2damnold4this]

How do you do a 2 round tactical reload with a moon clip?

The same way you do it with a semiauto like a G17. You put in a fully loaded clip/magazine.

[WheelGunMan]

Originally Posted by Nanuk

Actually the one that got me to switch was a Tongan. But the main reason was Plate glass.

I carry 125 grain Remington SJHP 357 mags in my snubs, both my J frame and my K frame.

Really?!? Your just gonna leave us hanging?

[HighValleyRanch]

I would think that it would be hard to reload that partially used moon clip with the raw cases.
Harder than reloaded a used magazine.
(After you've used the full clip that you loaded assuming you pocketed the partially used moon clip)

[74A95]

Originally Posted by 2damnold4this

According to Lucky Gunner, they got 1077 pfs out of the LCR with that load. That is only slightly faster than the standard pressure 9mm loads out of the 9mm lcr.

.357 link

9mm lcr link

Wrong ammo. The link is for the Golden Saber.

The SJHP is a different bullet.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

I would think that it would be hard to reload that partially used moon clip with the raw cases.
Harder than reloaded a used magazine.
(After you've used the full clip that you loaded assuming you pocketed the partially used moon clip)

The Ruger moon clips are actually really easy to pull empty cases off and put new ones in.

If these tactical reloads are so important, like I said, the moon clip doesn't have to be used. Largely why I would rather carry speed strips or speedloaders in the event of a reload instead of a moon clip.

The circumstances where topping off a revolver cylinder would be presented are so infinitesimally rare and when you consider that simply needing to draw AND fire a gun in self defense is rare itself, the importance of that type of reload is... quizzical.

You're grasping at straws with the "tactical reload" argument.