Issue with my Forster Ultimate seating die

[Stats Shooter]

I'm having an issue with my Forster Ultimate seating die.
I have loaded approximately 650 rounds with this die and loved how easy it was to setup, and how consistently it seated each round.

All of the previous 650 rounds loaded with that die were competition loads for my F-CLASS rifle, 225 gr hornady ELD's. That load is very lightly compressed.

I was attempting to use the same seating die to seat some 200 Grain Nosler Accubonds (the sptizer, not ABLR) and the seating cup (not sure the technical name) appears to be grabbing the bullet. It pushes the bullet in, but grabs the bullet pulling it back out of the case.

I know some seating dies are not supposed to be used on compressed loads, but the Forster says it can be used on compressed loads.

Is it just worn out and I need a new "cup"?

For now I am going back to my standard RCBS seating die for this compressed load, but hopefully this can be fixed.

[jmorris]

Have you been annealing your brass?

How much neck tension do you have if you seat a bullet on a sized but empty case?

[Stats Shooter]

Have you been annealing your brass?

Brand new brass... Never been fired

[Metal god]

Brand new brass... Never been fired

Interesting , my first thought was necks to soft do to annealing as well .

I can see how if the cone was not right for the bullet . The bullet could stick in the cone a "little" . Getting stuck so bad it pulls the bullet back out means the bullet is not getting stuck but rather lodged in the cone .

One measurement I'd check is the bullet diameter vs the inside diameter on the case neck . If the new brass only has .001 or .002 of hold "maybe" that could be it

Oh are you still lubing your bullets ?

[Stats Shooter]

I didn't lube these bullets. And, They are not seating difficulty....They seat like new brass should. And, the neck die used on them is the same one I always use on new, or any brass.. Same mandrel Lee neck die I use for F-CLASS.

[jmorris]

Brand new brass... Never been fired

Did you run it through your normal prep process or just try it out of the bag?

Case mouth thickness difference between them and rounds you have successfully loaded?

[ShootistPRS]

It would seem to me that your seating punch is the wrong profile for the new bullets. You can give Forster a call and see if they have a different stem/punch profile that will work with the new bullets.

[Stats Shooter]

It would seem to me that your seating punch is the wrong profile for the new bullets. You can give Forster a call and see if they have a different stem/punch profile that will work with the new bullets.

That's my initial impression, but just thought it odd that a non-vld type bullet would do that.

I'll call Forster on Monday and see what they say.

In the meantime I can just use my standard RCBS seating die. Believe it or not, standard RCBS seating dies have relatively low run-out and it handles most bullet construction types just fine.
They are just more time consuming to setup and you have to hold the bullet straight all the way up.

Also, when dealing with compressed loads, I have to have the shell holder stop on the die to get consistent seating making setup even more of a pain.... Hence me buying the Forster

[disseminator]

What do the bullets look like? Do they have a big gouge in them?

[noylj]

Take the seating stem out and see how it fits the bullet.
For me, I prefer a the seating stem to actually FIT the bullet ogive and NOT contact the meplat, so I have custom seating stems when needed.
PS: Never have I seen any comment about compressed powder charges and suitable seating dies.

[Stats Shooter]

No gouge in the bullet, but a visable ring is present (but not gouges).

I am wondering if after 650+ rounds I haven't bent the cone to form to the Hornady ELD bullets Which are very long...And now more traditional spritzer bullets get wedged in there. Meaning I need a different cone for them.

[Metal god]

Any update or response from Forster ?

[hounddawg]

No gouge in the bullet, but a visable ring is present (but not gouges).

I am wondering if after 650+ rounds I haven't bent the cone to form to the Hornady ELD bullets Which are very long

How much force are you using to seat the bullet? I don't there is any chance of a copper jacketed lead bullet deforming a hardened steel cone with the force needed to push the bullet into the neck of a case.

Anyway it sounds as if there is something in the cone latching onto the bullet and acting like a collet style bullet puller. Just to pull a bullet from a case if properly seated it takes a good bit of force. Try seating a bullet in a unprimed and unloaded case then grip it in one hand and pull the bullet with a pair of pliers to see what I mean. I use collet style puller sometimes and often have to take a couple of tries to get the collet to grab the bullet and that is what it is is designed to do and always leaves a ring indented into the bullet

Take a bullet that was pulled from the case and see where the ring on it lines up inside the die and examine the die to see what is grabbing the bullet to make the ring. Simple adhesion would not be enough to pull a bullet

[Stats Shooter]

Yes...
I spoke with them on the phone.

Back story: I use this die for my competition die on my F-Class rifle. The bullet is the Hornady 225 gr ELD-M. So a long bullet. It worked fine for over 600 rounds, and actually still works fine on that bullet, I just used it Thursday per Forster's request to see if it was happening on that bullet. It works fine still.

However, It doesn't work properly on the Nosler Accubond Spitzer...Which is weird because the Accubond Spitzer is a "standard" tangent ogive design much like the sierra match king (for those unfamiliar with the bullet). Even after loading 80 rounds with the Forser Ultimate seating die using my match load and the Hornady ELD-M, the problem persisted when I tried to go back and seat some Accubonds for my hunting rifle.

I thought it might be the fact that the hunting load is compressed to around 110%, but the problem occurs even when seating bullets in dummy cartridges with no powder/primer. What is happening is: the sleeve is grabbing the bullet just below the ogive on the exposed portion of the bearing surface. Then, when the ram is pushed downward, the bullet is pulled out of the case as much as 1/3" before the sleeve releases the bullet, the spring in the die makes a "clunk" noise, and the bullet isn't seated properly.

One thing I didn't try was seating the Hornady bullet as deeply as I seat the Noslers....That might matter because the Hornady's OAL is 3.630" and the Nosler is 3.365". But that fact may be moot because I run the Hornady much deeper into the die with the seating stem and spring assembly backed way off to get 3.630" average OAL. If it was tight in the sleeve, up in the die, it would likely catch on the Hornady bullet too right?

Anyway, Forster wants me to send a couple bullets and cases into them so they can look at it and evaluate what is going wrong. I love the die, it works great, and with it I can get cartridge base to ogive measurements within .0005" easily which has totally eliminated fliers.

I don't mind having to use a standard die, but I can't control seating depth as easily or get the same level of uniformity. While some think that hunting loads are 2nd to match loads, I kind of argue the opposite..I would rather hit a "9" in a match than miss an elk at 400 yards.

[Unclenick]

Forster's literature says the standard seating stem ram profile works with about 90% of bullets, but the others require a special profile. Redding's seater has a different profile available for VLD's, too, so this isn't just an issue for Forster.

[Stats Shooter]

Forster's literature says the standard seating stem ram profile works with about 90% of bullets, but the others require a special profile. Redding's seater has a different profile available for VLD's, too, so this isn't just an issue for Forster.

Yea, I know it Nick. It wouldn't have surprised me if it was the Hornady ELD-M 225 having issues, it is a very long bullet for a .30 cal, approximately 1.630". But having the Nosler spitzer type bullet give me an issue wasn't expected. I know it supposely can't be true, but i really wonder if the seating stem may have formed to the longer VLD bullet (the cup part of the stem), then with a shorter, less tapered bullet, it got lodged in the "cup".

My expectation is that Forster is going set me up with a different seating stem.

[hounddawg]

just out of curiosity have to tried a different seating die with the load/bullet that is giving you problems? Even after thinking on this while doing yard work I am having difficulty envisioning the seating cup being able to grip the bullet tight enough to pull it back up like a collet puller. I am leaning more toward the powder pushing the bullet back out of the case th2an the seating cup pulling it

First thing I would try is load the problem bullet into a case with no powder to see if the die is grabbing it and pulling or if the powder is "springy" enough to be pushing the bullet back out of the neck. You also might try removing the seating cup to see where and how the cup would be grabbing the bullet when you push one into by hand

[Stats Shooter]

just out of curiosity have to tried a different seating die with the load/bullet that is giving you problems? Even after thinking on this while doing yard work I am having difficulty envisioning the seating cup being able to grip the bullet tight enough to pull it back up. I am leaning more toward the powder pushing the bullet back out of the case than the seating cup pulling it

First thing I would try is load the problem bullet into a case with no powder to see if the die is grabbing it and pulling or if the powder is "springy" enough to be pushing the bullet back out of the neck. You also might try removing the seating cup to see where and how the cup would be grabbing the bullet when you push one into by hand

I was able to do the initial load development with a standard RCBS seating die after the Micrometer die had failed. I thought about the powder thing, so after seating them with a standard die, I went back a few hours later and remeasured the cartridge base to ogive and they were still spot on (at least the ones I checked). So if a standard die will seat them where I want them, then I doubt it can be powder compression pushing them back out immediately.

[RC20]

I have not made up my which one I like better but the RCBS Competition seater is a good one.

RCBS is a bit easier to work with than the Forster as you feed into a side slot not the bottom, I don't know if its any better than the Forster for alignment.

They are the only ones who make a set like that for 7.5 Swiss so that is the one I ordered for that setup (K31 and a Savage build in 7.5)

[hounddawg]

well so much for my idea...that would pretty much narrow it down to the seating cup somehow grabbing the bullets.

for what it is worth I use a Forster micrometer .30 caliber to seat my .308's as well as my .260's and a Redding micrometer for my .204s.

I know by using the .30 for the .260's I am seating off the metplat rather than the ogive but I get great results at the firing line so I have not bothered with getting one designed for 6.5 bullets yet.

[Unclenick]

Mississippi,

Yes. In this case it's the "normal" bullet that is special.

Incidentally, the standard RCBS seater works very well. In both sets of comparison tests I've seen (Rifleman's Journal and John Feamster's article in the Precision Shooting Reloading Guide), it always comes in better than RCBS's own match seater or second only to one like the Redding. The secret seems to be that the long thin threaded stem lets the ram position move enough to self-center. Indeed, if my case neck is straight and I use a Lyman M die to put a small step in a case mouth so the bullet is held perfectly straight up as it starts into the seater, the RCBS standard seater gives me concentricity second to none.

[Stats Shooter]

Update:

Because the current die and seating stem works great with my comp rifle....I decided not to send it in. Forster is sending me a different stem to see if it will work with the Accubonds. I suspect that it will, the guy at Forster said that my theory was plausible, which is that the current cup is formed to the ELD bullet after that many rounds, especially since it is a moderately compressed load.
In similar fashion, the new stem will, over time, form to the Nosler since it is a highly (110.7%) compressed load, but would work on almost any bullet initially.

Again though, if that doesn't work, I have absolutely no issues just using my standard RCBS seating die on hunting ammo since I only do 1 run about every 4 years so the convenience of setting up the Forster isn't a huge advantage.