best shottie ammo for self defense

#18indycolts · February 7, 2009, 06:53 PM

chime in and refute or agree with this: (from an article)

The single biggest mistake people make is to assume that the power of the shotgun is such that it negates having to select proper ammo. Through no experience or research they might come to the conclusion that birdshot is a perfectly acceptable choice for self defense? Why? Because the "feel" it's adequate for the most part.

Nothing is further from the truth. Once again, the shotgun ammunition needs to perform the same function as rifle and pistol ammo, which is to penetrate about 12" into ballistic gelatin. Fragmentation/expansion are usually not an issue in shotgun ammo, so that factor can be ignored for the most part.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

Second best choice is Winchester's 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.

hogdogs · February 7, 2009, 06:59 PM

Being that my HD gun is a 20 gauge I am stuck with #3 buck. But with the proper application of planning and training inside my home I should still have the upper hand strategically speaking. I just have to do my part a little better.
I would prefer 00 buck due to availability. Can't practice with what you cannot find or afford to blast several hundred per year until trained and several boxes a year for practice.
Brent

Vergeltung · February 7, 2009, 07:06 PM

low recoil slugs or 00 buck. the goal is to stop the intruder.

.45 COLT · February 7, 2009, 07:14 PM

Quote:

The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

Using that "logic", a load of #4 Birdshot, 1 1/2 ounces, would produce twice as much damage as the #1 Buck load. Really? Again, with that arguement, a bore size slug would cause less than half the damage as the Buck load. A load of #9s would be the deadliest of all.

#1 Buck may be a very good load, but using reasoning like that isn't the way to prove it.

If you read that article in a magazine, I'd suggest you drop your subscription.

DC

Lee Lapin · February 7, 2009, 08:09 PM

LINK: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm

I keep 00 buck (Federal LE127-00) in the magazine, with Brenneke KO slugs in the Sidesaddle. Best load? Heck, I dunno. The Federal patterns very well, it is a full velocity (1325 fps) 9-pellet load of hard alloy, copper plated buckshot so it should penetrate well too. The slugs are in case the shotgun gets taken outside and range stretches beyond the 25 yards or so I'm comfortable using buckshot within, or in case more penetration than the buckshot can deliver is necessary. We live well out in a rural area, overpenetration and misses are not serious concerns.

I first was told of the "advantages" of #1 buck in a hunter safety class in the 1970s. I have yet to find a barrel that patterns it worth a darn, and pellets that miss don't do any good. Thanks, I'll stick to a 00 load that can keep its pellets on target at reasonable range.

Shotguns are big-bored and powerful. No argument there. But they aren't bottled lightning, and people can be pretty tough critters. Given that the idea is to stop an attack no matter what defensive firearm is employed, you might want to read the following article, if you haven't seen it already- http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/...n/herdson.html .

There are no guarantees in life. You cannot be certain you will hit where you intended to hit- you cannot be certain your projectile or projectiles will perform as you thought they would, or should. In my class a couple of years ago, Louis Awerbuck mentioned that a student's slug had once deflected off the plastic bill of a baseball cap 'worn' by a plastic three-dimensional target in one of the shooting drills he runs dozens of times a year, and failed to penetrate. A fluke? Absolutely. But if Louis said it happened, I believe him- the man just doesn't miss much at all that goes on on his firing line.

It just doesn't pay to take too much for granted where the defense of life, limb and loved ones is at stake. Even with a shotgun, run the bolt and prepare to shoot again if necessary immediately after following through on the previous shot, no matter what defensive ammunition you're using.

Remember Murphy...

lpl

RoscoeC · February 7, 2009, 10:32 PM

Quote:

We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester.

Er, just wondering, who is "We"?

#18indycolts · February 7, 2009, 10:35 PM

thanx Lee for that link, thats exactly where I got that from. I posted my question with a refute and agreeable response. Thats all, am glad to know what people think.

Lee Lapin · February 7, 2009, 11:00 PM

You're welcome, indycolts.

Er, just wondering, who is "We"?

"For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes." - http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Roscoe,

My guess would be the Firearmstactical folks and the IWBA...

lpl

Cruncher Block · February 7, 2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Lapin

I first was told of the "advantages" of #1 buck in a hunter safety class in the 1970s. I have yet to find a barrel that patterns it worth a darn, and pellets that miss don't do any good. Thanks, I'll stick to a 00 load that can keep its pellets on target at reasonable range.

This has been my experience with #1 Buck as well (not the 1970s part -- I was in grade school

). I've tried it and it did not pattern as well as a few brands of 00 Buck.

bwheasler · February 9, 2009, 09:16 PM

Any type of buckshot will suffice, however one need to look at the practical distance you might encounter. If you live with neighbors close like a condo or apartment ,#5 or 4 my be a better chose. An inside typical range would be under 15yds A 12gauge with about any shot will cut a man almost in half and you won't have to about overpenetration. Nothing wrong with killing an intruder, you just don't want to risk loved ones or neighbors in doing so.

Ruger4570 · February 9, 2009, 10:32 PM

I get flamed every time I repeat this. My living situation is such that buckshot or slugs are just not a justifiable option due to the proximity of other families and the possibility of overpennetration.
My HD load is Remington Premier Hi Velocity Copper Plated #4 Turkey loads at 1300 fps. This shell launches 1 3/4 oz of shot.
At realistic HD ranges, you know, across the room, you are generally talking less than 20 feet.
I have NO DOUBT a bad guy struck center of mass is NOT going to want to puruse the situation further. I don't care if he is wearing a bullet proof vest, he is NOT going to want to continue. I also use a Berreta 390 semi auto so if he is less than cooperative, ya all know what a double tap is. 1st shot COM, 2nd shot ...head.
I know you can immagine every conceivable situation from some drug crazed loony to Superman breaking in. Most home invasions are from those wanting to steal your property, certainly not wanting to get into a gunfight even if they are armed.

Steel Talon · February 9, 2009, 10:51 PM

#4 Buck

dcobler · February 9, 2009, 11:26 PM

Question, for a non-lethal load, would salt rock be preferred? or rubber pellets?
Not saying I would use non-lethat loads for HD.

scsov509 · February 9, 2009, 11:30 PM

Quote:

A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

Wouldn't that mean that the 3", 15 pellet #00 shell would be the most desirable option? The logic here seems flawed to me?

Dave McC · February 10, 2009, 07:30 AM

Less lethal loads are not good choices for civilian use. Every cop out there using them is backed up by other cops with very lethal options at hand.

If a civilian is justified shooting anything, he or she is justified using deadly force. If not, they're in big trouble.

As for ammo choices, mine's a tight patterning, reduced recoil 00.

Lee Lapin · February 10, 2009, 08:18 AM

Wouldn't that mean that the 3", 15 pellet #00 shell would be the most desirable option? The logic here seems flawed to me?

The punch line of an old joke: "Kills on one end and maims on the other." If you expect to be attacked by velociraptors, 3" magnum buckshot might make sense. For thin skinned, lightly boned critters, it's overkill. A fast and accurate followup shot is an advantage not worth surrendering lightly, there's no need to deal yourself that much recoil in a self defense situation.

But then, there's always a 3 1/2" 12 gauge too... or better yet a 10 gauge. No need to do things by half measures, stopping with a mere 3" magnum, if putting as much lead as possible downrange with a single pull of the trigger is the goal.

lpl

scsov509 · February 10, 2009, 05:01 PM

Quote:

The punch line of an old joke: "Kills on one end and maims on the other." If you expect to be attacked by velociraptors, 3" magnum buckshot might make sense. For thin skinned, lightly boned critters, it's overkill. A fast and accurate followup shot is an advantage not worth surrendering lightly, there's no need to deal yourself that much recoil in a self defense situation.

First of all, using a 3" magnum in no way eliminates the ability to deliver fast and accurate followup shots. I've shot a lot of 3" shells and can say that I honestly perceive little difference from 2 3/4" shells so that neither speed nor accuracy is affected that much in my own shooting experience.

More importantly however, I think you miss the point of my comment. The OP is stating a preference for the 2 3/4" #1 buckshot shell on the basis that: 1) Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances, and 2) A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. So the question is, using that criteria alone, wouldn't the 3" #00 shell be the most idea round in that it provides a shot that will reliably penetrate to desired depth, and also offers the larger cross sectional density given the 15 pellets in a 3" #00 shell?

I'm just saying the whole argument doesn't make sense to me.

shortwave · February 10, 2009, 05:42 PM

I`m loaded with 2 3/4" Winchester 00buck

Lee Lapin · February 10, 2009, 08:33 PM

I did indeed miss your salient point. "If 16 #1 pellets are good, wouldn't 15 larger 00 pellets be better?"

It would be necessary to do the math to compute the cross sectional density for 15 00 pellets versus 16 #1 pellets to really answer that question.

.77 divided by 9 = .085 (for one 00 pellet)

1.13 divided by 16 = .0706 (for one #1 pellet)

So, 15 00 pellets times .085 = 1.275, which is in fact .145 larger. Not as significant a difference as the .36 difference between .77 and 1.13, but a difference nonetheless.

As to the ability to deliver hits, try running splits against a timer with 3" and then with 2 3/4". It might be interesting...

Now then, take a look at http://www.wholesalehunter.com/produ...productid=1053 . Here we have a total of 18 00 pellets, for a total cross sectional density of 18 X .085 or 1.53...

lpl

scsov509 · February 10, 2009, 08:53 PM

Quote:

I did indeed miss your salient point. "If 16 #1 pellets are good, wouldn't 15 larger 00 pellets be better?"

That was it indeed...

Quote:

As to the ability to deliver hits, try running splits against a timer with 3" and then with 2 3/4". It might be interesting...

That would be an interesting experiment, although I'd speculate that the actual timed difference would probably be negligible in terms of defensive shooting needs. At the end of the day, I do in fact prefer good ole' 9 pellet #00 buck rounds for my defensive needs if for no other reason than they are cheap enough to shoot often so as to keep up practice with my defensive shotgun. I can't by contrast say that the 3" are cheap enough for me to shoot with much regularity, and I pretty much won't use any defensive ammunition with which I am not able to regularly practice.

32 Magnum · February 12, 2009, 07:00 PM

The diameter of pellets and overall cross sectional AREA, aside, the mass and the the velocity of each pellet will determine momentum and impulse at point of impact - heavier pellets will retain more momentum at shotgun ranges and therefore have a higher impulse at impact and be potentially capable of deeper penetration.

February 9, 2009, 09:16 PM	#10
bwheasler Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Indianapolis In Posts: 108	Depends on the situation Any type of buckshot will suffice, however one need to look at the practical distance you might encounter. If you live with neighbors close like a condo or apartment ,#5 or 4 my be a better chose. An inside typical range would be under 15yds A 12gauge with about any shot will cut a man almost in half and you won't have to about overpenetration. Nothing wrong with killing an intruder, you just don't want to risk loved ones or neighbors in doing so.

February 9, 2009, 11:26 PM	#13
dcobler Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2008 Location: Oklahoma, America Posts: 286	Question, for a non-lethal load, would salt rock be preferred? or rubber pellets? Not saying I would use non-lethat loads for HD. __________________ "Be kind, be courteous, and have a plan to kill everybody you meet."

February 10, 2009, 08:33 PM	#19
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	I did indeed miss your salient point. "If 16 #1 pellets are good, wouldn't 15 larger 00 pellets be better?" It would be necessary to do the math to compute the cross sectional density for 15 00 pellets versus 16 #1 pellets to really answer that question. .77 divided by 9 = .085 (for one 00 pellet) 1.13 divided by 16 = .0706 (for one #1 pellet) So, 15 00 pellets times .085 = 1.275, which is in fact .145 larger. Not as significant a difference as the .36 difference between .77 and 1.13, but a difference nonetheless. As to the ability to deliver hits, try running splits against a timer with 3" and then with 2 3/4". It might be interesting... Now then, take a look at http://www.wholesalehunter.com/produ...productid=1053 . Here we have a total of 18 00 pellets, for a total cross sectional density of 18 X .085 or 1.53... lpl Last edited by Lee Lapin; February 10, 2009 at 08:54 PM.

February 7, 2009, 06:53 PM	#1
#18indycolts Junior member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Indpls Posts: 1,159	best shottie ammo for self defense chime in and refute or agree with this: (from an article) The single biggest mistake people make is to assume that the power of the shotgun is such that it negates having to select proper ammo. Through no experience or research they might come to the conclusion that birdshot is a perfectly acceptable choice for self defense? Why? Because the "feel" it's adequate for the most part. Nothing is further from the truth. Once again, the shotgun ammunition needs to perform the same function as rifle and pistol ammo, which is to penetrate about 12" into ballistic gelatin. Fragmentation/expansion are usually not an issue in shotgun ammo, so that factor can be ignored for the most part. Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma. In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body. For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not. Second best choice is Winchester's 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.

February 7, 2009, 06:59 PM	#2
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Being that my HD gun is a 20 gauge I am stuck with #3 buck. But with the proper application of planning and training inside my home I should still have the upper hand strategically speaking. I just have to do my part a little better. I would prefer 00 buck due to availability. Can't practice with what you cannot find or afford to blast several hundred per year until trained and several boxes a year for practice. Brent

February 7, 2009, 07:06 PM	#3
Vergeltung Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Location: near NYC, USA Posts: 292	low recoil slugs or 00 buck. the goal is to stop the intruder. __________________ *Tuitio Fidei et Obsequium Pauperum*

February 7, 2009, 08:09 PM	#5
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	LINK: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm I keep 00 buck (Federal LE127-00) in the magazine, with Brenneke KO slugs in the Sidesaddle. Best load? Heck, I dunno. The Federal patterns very well, it is a full velocity (1325 fps) 9-pellet load of hard alloy, copper plated buckshot so it should penetrate well too. The slugs are in case the shotgun gets taken outside and range stretches beyond the 25 yards or so I'm comfortable using buckshot within, or in case more penetration than the buckshot can deliver is necessary. We live well out in a rural area, overpenetration and misses are not serious concerns. I first was told of the "advantages" of #1 buck in a hunter safety class in the 1970s. I have yet to find a barrel that patterns it worth a darn, and pellets that miss don't do any good. Thanks, I'll stick to a 00 load that can keep its pellets on target at reasonable range. Shotguns are big-bored and powerful. No argument there. But they aren't bottled lightning, and people can be pretty tough critters. Given that the idea is to stop an attack no matter what defensive firearm is employed, you might want to read the following article, if you haven't seen it already- http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/...n/herdson.html . There are no guarantees in life. You cannot be certain you will hit where you intended to hit- you cannot be certain your projectile or projectiles will perform as you thought they would, or should. In my class a couple of years ago, Louis Awerbuck mentioned that a student's slug had once deflected off the plastic bill of a baseball cap 'worn' by a plastic three-dimensional target in one of the shooting drills he runs dozens of times a year, and failed to penetrate. A fluke? Absolutely. But if Louis said it happened, I believe him- the man just doesn't miss much at all that goes on on his firing line. It just doesn't pay to take too much for granted where the defense of life, limb and loved ones is at stake. Even with a shotgun, run the bolt and prepare to shoot again if necessary immediately after following through on the previous shot, no matter what defensive ammunition you're using. Remember Murphy... lpl

February 7, 2009, 10:35 PM	#7
#18indycolts Junior member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Indpls Posts: 1,159	thanx Lee for that link, thats exactly where I got that from. I posted my question with a refute and agreeable response. Thats all, am glad to know what people think.

February 7, 2009, 11:00 PM	#8
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	You're welcome, indycolts. Er, just wondering, who is "We"? "For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes." - http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm Roscoe, My guess would be the Firearmstactical folks and the IWBA... lpl

February 9, 2009, 10:32 PM	#11
Ruger4570 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 2,136	I get flamed every time I repeat this. My living situation is such that buckshot or slugs are just not a justifiable option due to the proximity of other families and the possibility of overpennetration. My HD load is Remington Premier Hi Velocity Copper Plated #4 Turkey loads at 1300 fps. This shell launches 1 3/4 oz of shot. At realistic HD ranges, you know, across the room, you are generally talking less than 20 feet. I have NO DOUBT a bad guy struck center of mass is NOT going to want to puruse the situation further. I don't care if he is wearing a bullet proof vest, he is NOT going to want to continue. I also use a Berreta 390 semi auto so if he is less than cooperative, ya all know what a double tap is. 1st shot COM, 2nd shot ...head. I know you can immagine every conceivable situation from some drug crazed loony to Superman breaking in. Most home invasions are from those wanting to steal your property, certainly not wanting to get into a gunfight even if they are armed.

February 9, 2009, 10:51 PM	#12
Steel Talon Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2007 Posts: 138	#4 Buck

February 10, 2009, 07:30 AM	#15
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Less lethal loads are not good choices for civilian use. Every cop out there using them is backed up by other cops with very lethal options at hand. If a civilian is justified shooting anything, he or she is justified using deadly force. If not, they're in big trouble. As for ammo choices, mine's a tight patterning, reduced recoil 00.

February 10, 2009, 08:18 AM	#16
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	Wouldn't that mean that the 3", 15 pellet #00 shell would be the most desirable option? The logic here seems flawed to me? The punch line of an old joke: "Kills on one end and maims on the other." If you expect to be attacked by velociraptors, 3" magnum buckshot might make sense. For thin skinned, lightly boned critters, it's overkill. A fast and accurate followup shot is an advantage not worth surrendering lightly, there's no need to deal yourself that much recoil in a self defense situation. But then, there's always a 3 1/2" 12 gauge too... or better yet a 10 gauge. No need to do things by half measures, stopping with a mere 3" magnum, if putting as much lead as possible downrange with a single pull of the trigger is the goal. lpl

February 10, 2009, 05:42 PM	#18
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	I`m loaded with 2 3/4" Winchester 00buck

February 12, 2009, 07:00 PM	#21
32 Magnum Member In Memoriam Join Date: January 17, 2009 Location: Eastern PA Posts: 364	The diameter of pellets and overall cross sectional AREA, aside, the mass and the the velocity of each pellet will determine momentum and impulse at point of impact - heavier pellets will retain more momentum at shotgun ranges and therefore have a higher impulse at impact and be potentially capable of deeper penetration.