The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 18, 2019, 11:18 PM   #1
Bartholomew Roberts
member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
Knife Attacks

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DTCbLn09xgo

In the above video, a man at a Taco Bell told a woman who was berating customers to “Zip it.” She responded by casually walking past him and then slashing his throat with a knife. The wound was 8” long, required 100 stitches to sew up, and came within millimeters of his carotid artery.

Like several knife attacks I’ve reviewed, the victim never sees the knife until they’ve been stuck. In some cases, even after the victim has been stuck they don’t realize a knife is involved.

I thought this video was instructive because it shows how fast a life-threatening attack can develop and how difficult they can be to defend against. It also shows how easy it is to come across the wrong person in a casual encounter and pay the price for an offhand remark.

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; October 18, 2019 at 11:23 PM.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old October 18, 2019, 11:39 PM   #2
shurshot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2006
Posts: 1,819
I saw "Surviving Edged Weapon's" back in the late 80's... still very relevant for LEO's, Corrections and anyone who seeks self defense knowledge. "21 foot rule" has been revised though to 35 feet. Scary stuff as there are so many nutcases out there.
shurshot is offline  
Old October 19, 2019, 01:18 AM   #3
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 8,273
weapons

I heard Doug Mircaida, a recognized martial arts guy, make the comment "weapons are to felt and not seen", in regards to blades. The attack described fits in that description. Closing the distance discreetly or casually, to get "in range" with a blade, is part of the knife "technique" or culture, if you will, and I'd bet not the first time the attacker used that practice.
bamaranger is offline  
Old October 19, 2019, 05:41 AM   #4
Ben Dover
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 2013
Location: High up in the Rocky Moun
Posts: 665
"Surviving edged weapons" was an excellent video. I saw it twice.

One of my neighbors was a survivor of a knife attack. His philosophy after the attack is simple. "See blade, shoot to kill."
__________________
The soldier's pack is not so heavy a burden as the prisoner's chains. Dwight Eisenhower

It is very important what a man stands for.
But it is far more important what a man refuses to stand for.
Ben Dover is offline  
Old October 19, 2019, 08:25 AM   #5
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,434
Quote:
Originally Posted by shurshot
"21 foot rule" has been revised though to 35 feet.
Could you please provide a source and/or a link? I know that a couple/few years ago Dennis Tueller commented that the 21 foot distance should be more today, but I have never seen anyone put an exact number on it.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old October 19, 2019, 10:26 AM   #6
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 2,074
The bottom line is that far too many people simply assume that everyone they encounter has similar morals, values and motivations as they do. This isn't about "surviving an edged weapon attack", this is about not being completely oblivious to what is going on around you and especially toward a person or people you have just recently had words with.

This woman does not appear to be an aggressive predator. She is rather unassuming in her size, appearance and the manner that she occupies space in the world. She didn't really seem very invested in the attack and did not seem motivated by a desire to fight him.

Based on a couple of seconds of video, she simply seemed like a person who was indifferent to the consequences and risks associated with such conduct and may simply wanted to get back at him, teach him a lesson, reclaim pride or other similar sentiment.

What is the take-a-way? Don't put yourself on the radar of bad people and if you do... you probable need to be paying attention.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old October 19, 2019, 10:36 AM   #7
unclenunzie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2016
Location: Texas.
Posts: 140
Honestly, that vid is terrifying. Knowing how some people take offense at a casual (but to be honest in this case rude) remark, as a personal insult even, you might expect a simple expletive remark back. Definitely not expect a deadly assault in response but the possibility is always there, and the point is well taken.

Maybe a highly trained individual (not me certainly) could defend against that, but I think avoidance is the best approach. Truly frightening.
__________________
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
this space for rent
unclenunzie is offline  
Old October 19, 2019, 10:44 AM   #8
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 2,074
Quote:
Could you please provide a source and/or a link? I know that a couple/few years ago Dennis Tueller commented that the 21 foot distance should be more today, but I have never seen anyone put an exact number on it.
There doesn't need to be an absolute number on it. It varies from person to person, terrain, position and all sorts of other such combative nuances. A person simply needs to be aware of the fact that a good many people can successfully land a physical attack within this GENERAL arena of distance in rather short order. A few of paces on either side of 21 feet doesn't really matter in my opinion.

The problems surfaced when defenders began to use the old 6-10 foot reactionary gap as the threshold of danger close regarding physical attacks.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old October 19, 2019, 10:57 AM   #9
TunnelRat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 12,181
When we've done the Tueller drill in classes it was notably over 21 ft. The Tueller drill standard distance assumes you know the attack is coming, but in reality it takes time to process that information. Factor in someone carrying concealed versus a service weapon on a duty belt and you have even more time.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
TunnelRat is online now  
Old October 19, 2019, 12:37 PM   #10
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
Great post!!

I have been cut/stabbed 3 times on duty. Twice I saw it coming and was able to deflect it somewhat the third time I did not even see the BG until I was stabbed. I was lucky the third time as he hit my duty belt and the knife missed my right kidney by 3/8" and still went in an inch after going thru the heavy leather belt. It felt like I had been punched and I did not know I was stabbed until a while later (we were in a barfight).

Knives scare the crap outta me. The video shows what I have been trying to tell folks for years........ You will not see the attack coming with a good predator.
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old October 19, 2019, 12:57 PM   #11
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
The 21 or 35 foot "rule" doesn't exactly apply to a lunatic with a knife.
"...Knives scare the crap outta me..." Nothing like cold steel to scare people. There have been studies done(don't have any links) that prove soldiers fear bayonets more than bullets. Something 'primal' about it.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old October 19, 2019, 01:37 PM   #12
JERRYS.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 2,968
you don't "get in to it" with somebody and turn your back (ignore them). that's should be the first lesson learned from that taco bell attack.
JERRYS. is offline  
Old October 19, 2019, 02:30 PM   #13
smee78
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2008
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 2,918
Go out anywhere and look around you where people are waiting for something, anything food, to get a hair cut, at the bank and you will see mindless sheep playing on their cell phones not paying attention to their surroundings. No way I would turn my back to someone who I just had words with, that was stupid and he paid the price in the video.
__________________
We know exactly where one cow with Mad-cow-disease is located, among the millions and millions of cows in America, but we haven't got a clue where thousands of illegal immigrants and terrorists are
smee78 is offline  
Old October 19, 2019, 04:15 PM   #14
Mainah
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2007
Posts: 1,117
Quote:
you don't "get in to it" with somebody and turn your back (ignore them). that's should be the first lesson learned from that taco bell attack.
Great point. I mind my own business and walk away from conflict, but I have been guilty of getting lost in my phone feed while standing in lines.
Mainah is offline  
Old October 19, 2019, 04:17 PM   #15
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 6,432
Did they catch the assailant and lock her up for attempted murder?
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old October 19, 2019, 04:32 PM   #16
Bartholomew Roberts
member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
The woman, who was “known to police”, got a 7 year sentence for that attack.

Related to this subject; but a different incident - man with knife stabs five armed police officers: https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=450786

That thread (and video) is an excellent example of the “my gun is a magic talisman that protects me from evil” mentality.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old October 19, 2019, 04:55 PM   #17
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 2,074
Quote:
The 21 or 35 foot "rule" doesn't exactly apply to a lunatic with a knife.
it does if they are a human being
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old October 19, 2019, 05:17 PM   #18
stephen426
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 3,840
I would have to agree that situational awareness is key in reducing the chances of a surprise attack. Not to be paranoid, but I tend to sit with my back towards walls or where I can see what is going on. If I had confronted someone about their behavior, I would not give them my back until I was sure that they left or were no longer a threat. I’ve had to fire employees and calm down rude (crazy) customers. There is always a bit of tenseness as you never know how they are going to react. I try to be the “water” rather than the “gas” in tense situations, but my guard is internally on high alert.

After situational awareness, space and movement are your friend when it comes to contact weapons. I still can’t believe that they only gave her 7 years for attempted murder. Avoid crazy situations if at all possible, but keep your guard up and be prepared to block or move if you see a weapon.
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old October 19, 2019, 07:03 PM   #19
shurshot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2006
Posts: 1,819
Auquila, I don't have a link. I recently attended a use of force / LEO training and the instructor mentioned the revised / 35 foot distance as 21 feet was never set in stone to begin with, but as a SUGGESTED bare minimum distance back when Surviving Edged weapons first came out. I don't know if it's (35'), in writing anywhere as there are so many variables involved, or just a new generaly accepted minimum distance. Made sense to me as I don't want to get anywhere near a sharp blade being held by a hostile person.
A few moons ago (late 80's, early 90's), I attended some training with rubber knives/ guns at 21 feet, and the vast majority of the time, the guy with the knife could dash across the room, slash / stab / chop the guy with the gun before the rubber gun cleared the holster. Sobering training to say the least.

Last edited by shurshot; October 19, 2019 at 07:31 PM.
shurshot is offline  
Old October 19, 2019, 07:36 PM   #20
shurshot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2006
Posts: 1,819
If someone is running towards you with a knife, axe, etc., and your adrenaline is pumping, in the midst of the fight or flight reflex... unless you are on a football field with clearly marked distances, how are you going to tell the difference between 18 feet and 24 feet? The distance is arbitrary.
Action beats reaction.
shurshot is offline  
Old October 19, 2019, 08:18 PM   #21
MTT TL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 2,780
Not a knife, but another stabbing illustrating the speed issue.

https://www.cleveland19.com/2019/06/...wdriver-video/
__________________
Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.
MTT TL is offline  
Old October 20, 2019, 02:06 PM   #22
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,468
a knife, IMO, is the sucker punch of the lethal weapon world. Brandishing it is one thing. You're always going to run the risk of a sudden, brutal, disabling attack any time someone is within 6 feet or so. There will be very few people on this planet that could block a knife attack from only two steps away, even if the victim is already on alert. Seriously, it takes two steps and less than two seconds to throw a slashing cut or deep stab wound on someone. How could a person possibly block or fight back unless that was already in combat readiness?

Edged weapons are a whole different can of possum innards. completely concealable. instant and disabling strikes. Multiple strikes in the time it takes to draw a breath or scream. Depending on how badly the attacker wants to hurt his victim, a knife in itself may be even quicker than a handgun.

The only way that a person can stay safe from a guy with a knife is just to know what the heck is going on. There will be cues that things are going south, almost any time, there will be hints that the attacker is not peaceful. Unfortunately, some people see this type every day, even several times a day.

My wife and I were walking a trail last night after dark and an apparently homeless guy got off of a bench and started following us, but turned off. So she got out her mace and I had my hand on the butt of my pistol. At fifteen feet, he still could have inflicted a lot of damage with only a knife.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old October 20, 2019, 02:39 PM   #23
davidsog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2018
Posts: 1,322
Quote:
a knife, IMO, is the sucker punch of the lethal weapon world.
It is and unfortunately that woman uses one properly. Her victim is unaware of the attack until after it has occurred.
davidsog is offline  
Old October 20, 2019, 03:21 PM   #24
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 5,468
Some of the 911 highjackers had taped box knives to the bottoms of their shoes and managed to carry off a physical attack after hours of observation and several searches.

That should pretty well say it all. A bunch of (well trained) thugs took over some commercial passenger jets with nothing but the most basic weapons. Mace and box knives.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old October 20, 2019, 03:31 PM   #25
davidsog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2018
Posts: 1,322
Quote:
Some of the 911 highjackers had taped box knives to the bottoms of their shoes and managed to carry off a physical attack after hours of observation and several searches.
Yep and were even able to cut the head off a NYC cop who ran up to assist the Lead FA in 1st Class as she was being beheaded.
davidsog is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.13464 seconds with 8 queries