Hammer or hammerless?

[KyJim]

In a defensive revolver, a spur on the hammer makes little sense. Those who disagree will often state that it is necessary for that rare and unlikely "longer shot". They seem to not ever explain a realistic scenario where cocking the hammer on a double action is a wise or logical thing to do. If an attacker is not very close and you feel that you need to cock the hammer, you have the opportunity to retreat and not be involved at all and will have avoided having to explain why you felt threatened by someone who was not "all up in your face" (where almost all attacks happen).

I can agree with this to a limited extent. If you pocket carry, you should definitely carry a "hammerless" revolver or one with a shrouded hammer. That's to prevent a snag when drawn. The possibility of snagging is considerably less when carrying OWB. BTW, I'm one of those who greatly benefits from a good trigger in snubby revolver.

[jimku]

Originally Posted by Hawg

The secret is using the barrel itself as part of the front sight so your sights always remain on target with no holdover.

Hawg, one of my favorite things to do is bust those little orange shotgun clays on a dirt bank at 100 yards with my snubby revolvers. No, I am not claiming to be Jerry Miculek or Bob Munden. I don't hit them every time, maybe once in 5 - 8 shots, but I can routinely scare hell out of them, just barely missing them by an inch or two. If that were a man standing out there he would be in DEEP doo-doo.

I can't tell people on here my shooting "secrets" short of writing a book, but it has to do with keeping both eyes open, letting the sights wander and timing your squeeze so the shot breaks just as the sight picture intersects the target.
If you try to hold a rock steady sight picture, all you will do is start shaking like a dog tying to pass a peach seed.

Why do I do that? Oh, just 'cause. And it is fun.

[44 AMP]

In my area, SA is ill-advised due to potential legal issues in case of a self defense situation.

I can't think of any situation where SA shooting creates any valid legal issue. Could you elaborate, or give an example, please?

Don't know why most every thread on here needs to turn into a pissin' match.

My guess would be, because certain people want it that way. It seems to come out strongest in threads that are about, or are twisted into discussions of tactics "needed" in defensive shooting.

I've seen a number of people over the years who create their own arbitrary standards, and tell everyone that if you don't do it (exactly) the way they tell you to do it, you are going to die, Die, DIE!!!

And amazingly, they will justify that attitude with either an uber-rare situation, or more commonly with what happens in "most gunfights" and sometimes both, together. Some of those same folks get rather peckish when someone points out the flaws in their logic.

When it comes to "hammer or hammerless" (meaning shrouded / internal hammer) my personal choice is that if a gun has a hammer, I want access to it. How, when, and why I choose to use it, is my business, but I do want, and demand the option.

I'm ok with a shrouded hammer if the shroud allows me to cock the hammer. I don't want one where the hammer is 100% enclosed. I want the option of choice.

In a defensive revolver, a spur on the hammer makes little sense. Those who disagree will often state that it is necessary for that rare and unlikely "longer shot". They seem to not ever explain a realistic scenario where cocking the hammer on a double action is a wise or logical thing to do.

If we agree that "little sense" is not the same as "no sense" I can go along with the statement, in general. But I would also submit for consideration, that the "rare and unlikely" longer shot might not be a longer shot, it could be a shorter "normal" range shot where precision is required. We do focus hugely on human vs human but there are other defensive uses that people who never set foot off the pavement rarely see or consider.

One example is snakes. Specifically the venomous ones. Another is feral/rabid animals. Personally I am much more accurate shooting Single Action, and I want that option for those "rare and unlikely" times when I need to make a precise shot on a fairly small target.

Sticking to the "belly guns", I've got a Colt Cobra. It has a hammer. Also has a sweet DA pull. It gives me options. DAO doesn't do that. Fully shrouded /internal hammer doesn't do that.

[jimku]

For once I have to agree with everything 44 AMP just said.
It all pretty much boils down to just how accurate YOU can be DA vs SA. Some people can shoot accurately DA, some just can't ... and even the meaning of "accurately" gets debated on here.
To me, "accurately" means roughly the size of a silver dollar at 7 yards. To others it means anywhere in "center mass" (nick a lung, shoot him in the somach, whatever).
I will just point out that a bad guy shot in the stomach can easily empty his gun into you while he succumbs but the same dude with one squarely in the middle of his forehead is instantly out of commission.

[dahermit]

If we agree that "little sense" is not the same as "no sense" I can go along with the statement, in general. But I would also submit for consideration, that the "rare and unlikely" longer shot might not be a longer shot, it could be a shorter "normal" range shot where precision is required. We do focus hugely on human vs human but there are other defensive uses that people who never set foot off the pavement rarely see or consider.

Agree..."defensive" was intended to describe a tense situation among humans.

[dahermit]

One example is snakes. Specifically the venomous ones.

I and many others including herpetologists would take issue with that inasmuch as if you see the snake it is likely that you could jump out of its striking range rather than draw your gun, cock it and shoot. As a matter of fact herpetologists go rather nuts when they hear of people killing even venous snakes inasmuch as they see them as necessary for ecological balance of other species and such. I have always been under the impression that people kill snakes, not because of a ligitimate danger, but people just don't like snakes. But if we are looking for exceptions, the Burmese Pythons in Florida have worn out their welcome...no one will fault you for shooting single action at them, I am sure.

[dahermit]

Sticking to the "belly guns", I've got a Colt Cobra. It has a hammer. Also has a sweet DA pull. It gives me options. DAO doesn't do that. Fully shrouded /internal hammer doesn't do that.

"belly guns" suggest self-defense against humans, not snakes. Longer barreled guns and hammer spurs seem better designed for that task.

[jimku]

I don't much care who might take issue, to me, if I am on a trail, the only good snake is a dead one. If off the trail and out in the bush, I will simply avoid it and move on ... unless the S.O.B. has already bit me or tried to.

[jimku]

Originally Posted by dahermit

"belly guns" suggest self-defense against humans, not snakes. Longer barreled guns and hammer spurs seem better designed for that task.

Is this a "belly gun"?
45 Colt. Can easily keep both barrels inside a 10" paper plate at 20 yards (with practice).
Murder on snakes.

[HighValleyRanch]

I have always been under the impression that people kill snakes, not because of a ligitimate danger, but people just don't like snakes

I killed a huge rattler on my property a couple of weeks ago. If I'm out hiking or somewhere, I will just keep out of distance and go my way. But the ranch is my territory with lots of animals on it, so seeing that it had made a den under a fallen log, I had no other choice but to shoot it. Didn't have a hoop, rope stick or hoe, just my Kahe PM9 on me. And didn't have time to go back up and get anything else. Oh, the Kahr is one of those double action triggers that nobody can hit things with!

[jimku]

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

Oh, the Kahr is one of those double action triggers that nobody can hit things with!LOL

Here we go again.
It just depends on who you are.
I have an expensive little Kahr MK40 Elite. Supposedly the smoothest DA trigger in existence. I got it expressly to try to learn to master a DA trigger. After 10s of hours of dry-firing, watching so many training videos that I got cataracts and putting all of that to practice as best I can, a couple thousand rounds of very expensive ammo down range, I still can barely keep a magazine full even on the paper of a full-size silhouette target at 7 yards. For me, it is the most inaccurate POS I have ever shot! It has been relegated to expensive paper weight in my collection and I have flat given up on ever being able to shoot DA fer crap. Maybe I am just the most inept buffoon who ever walked the earth, but I will venture there are whole bunch of others just like me. The only way I will ever carry this gun is if I never intend to venture outside of a phone booth.

Laugh at me if you want, I will let Bart Simpson give you my response.
Here is my expensive paper weight.

[44 AMP]

I and many others including herpetologists would take issue with that....

I understand the empathy, and I'm well aware of how things work in an ecosystem. I'm not talking about decimating entire area populations, just the elimination of a small number of individual animals where they pose a threat.

Out on the trail, in their place I avoid and let them go their merry way. In my backyard, they're toast. Not out of direct personal fear for myself, but concern for others, (like my wife who can barely see beyond her feet) and dispatching the threat is the one certain way to be sure that one doesn't ever come back.

"belly guns" suggest self-defense against humans, not snakes. Longer barreled guns and hammer spurs seem better designed for that task.

They are!

My point was not that belly guns are the best tool for the job, but that they may be the tool you have, when you need to do the job, and that a gun with a hammer allowing the choice of either SA or DA firing, like my Cobra, allows a choice, I think that option is worth having.

So, I will accept the risk of snagging a hammer, and the limitations on dress carry, draw, etc to have the option of a more accurate shot (in MY hands). I may never need it, but if I ever do, I'll need it badly and that's why I chose a gun that will allow me that choice.

[BondoBob]

I can't think of any situation where SA shooting creates any valid legal issue. Could you elaborate, or give an example, please?

I live in a not gun friendly state. While I can't site case law, I can quote an attorney with 20 yrs experience specializing in self defense who spoke for 1hr at our required pistol safety course as part of the permit process.

"Certain prosecutors, looking to make a name for themselves, will use any detail of a self defense shooting against you to get a conviction. They will argue that cocking the hammer constitutes premeditation, and that larger calibers are unnecessary and irresponsible. Also, while we are said to be an open carry state, it's really a concealed carry state. You'll likely be arrested in many townships for breach of the peace if you carry openly"

That's a pretty close paraphrase based on my notes from the class.

[44 AMP]

They will argue that cocking the hammer constitutes premeditation, and that larger calibers are unnecessary and irresponsible.

thank you for that explanation. That kind of DA is "unnecessary and irresponsible" in my opinion.

What does he do when the gun is a 1911A1 .45acp??

[74A95]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

What does he do when the gun is a 1911A1 .45acp??

Or a single action revolver.

[BondoBob]

Exactly! They are clueless. But we have to avoid giving them more ammunition (pun intended).

[jimku]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

What does he do when the gun is a 1911A1 .45acp??

Or any of the DA/SA semi-autos like my Bersa Thunder Plus?

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by jimku

Hawg, one of my favorite things to do is bust those little orange shotgun clays on a dirt bank at 100 yards with my snubby revolvers. No, I am not claiming to be Jerry Miculek or Bob Munden. I don't hit them every time, maybe once in 5 - 8 shots, but I can routinely scare hell out of them, just barely missing them by an inch or two. If that were a man standing out there he would be in DEEP doo-doo.

I can't tell people on here my shooting "secrets" short of writing a book, but it has to do with keeping both eyes open, letting the sights wander and timing your squeeze so the shot breaks just as the sight picture intersects the target.
If you try to hold a rock steady sight picture, all you will do is start shaking like a dog tying to pass a peach seed.

Why do I do that? Oh, just 'cause. And it is fun.

That's some mighty fine shootin there.

[Kreyzhorse]

I've always been a hammer guy. It gives you both a SA and DA gun and from a CCW standpoint, I've found that having a hammer isn't a barrier to carry.

[pete2]

The D/A only is a defensive piece, not made for shooting bullseye at 25 or 50 yards. I carry S&W 642s, fair out to about 15 yards, still on the IDPA target at 25 but not in the zero ring. With a 686 or 625 I can stay in the ring at 25, stay on the heat most of the time. I pocket carry, it you carry in a holster the exposed hammer gun should be good. The Kimber gun should be a lot easier to shoot double action, being heavier and longer than the 642 gun. I can't see the Kimber as a pocket gun, I would prolly buy the one with the exposed hammer.

[jimku]

Originally Posted by Hawg

That's some mighty fine shootin there.

Well, it is something I have worked on for 55+ years. I grew up hunting jack rabbits in Montana with a 22 single action. Ever shoot at a running jack rabbit? Seldom at under 50 yards? Hoppity-hoppity-hoppity. Timing was everything. There was a 50-cent per head bounty on them. 50 cents in 1955 was like $5.00 now. Canadian cold fronts used to drive them down into Montana by the tens of thousands, and they would literally destroy hay stacks. It was ALLways below freezing and I used to fill up 50-gallon oil drums with them, and when I had five drums full, take them in and collect a pretty fat "pay check" for a kid.

[HighValleyRanch]

Jimku,
I was just doing some DA dry firing with my Kimber K6, and a question just popped into my head wondering if you can dry fire DA and keep the sights aligned?

Now, I'm not saying YOU HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO SHOOT DA!LOL, just wondering if you can keep the sights aligned while dry firing?

[jimku]

Originally Posted by HighValleyRanch

Jimku,
I was just doing some DA dry firing with my Kimber K6, and a question just popped into my head wondering if you can dry fire DA and keep the sights aligned?

Now, I'm not saying YOU HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO SHOOT DA!LOL, just wondering if you can keep the sights aligned while dry firing?

The answer is "No". If I could, I could actually hit something with the gun DA..

[jetinteriorguy]

I grew up in NoDak in the 60’s and shot more than a few jackrabbits. The trick is be patient, when you kick one up just wait. They will always circle around about 75-100 yds out and stop and stand up, that’s when you take the shot. Not a lot of jackrabbits or jackalopes left anymore, too many coyotes.

[jimku]

Originally Posted by dahermit

In a defensive revolver, a spur on the hammer makes little sense. Those who disagree will often state that it is necessary for that rare and unlikely "longer shot". They seem to not ever explain a realistic scenario where cocking the hammer on a double action is a wise or logical thing to do. If an attacker is not very close and you feel that you need to cock the hammer, you have the opportunity to retreat and not be involved at all and will have avoided having to explain why you felt threatened by someone who was not "all up in your face" (where almost all attacks happen).

And ... if someone opens fire on you from 50 yards away with an AK47? Never mind how unlikely that might be. What if!