Damascus question

[GaryED50]

My Stepfather left me a double barrel shotgun with Damascus barrels! doesn't that indicate Black Powder only?

Gary

[jmr40]

I also have a shotgun that belonged to my great grandfather. As close as I can figure it was manufactured in 1897 and it also has Damascus barrels. That was the gun I started hunting with as teen. My dad used it quite a bit from the 1930's until he gave it to me. It was used with smokeless powder for all of those years.

It was about 1975 when I figured out it had Damascus barrels and decided it probably wasn't a good idea to continue shooting it. Damascus barrels were still manufactured into the 1920's, long after most shells were smokeless. I think the bigger issue is that over time the steel has aged and while it may have been OK 100 years ago, probably not today. With any shell, even black powder

I'd advise having it checked out by someone who knows what they are doing. There are some options for very low pressure smokeless powder loads that may be safe to use. I really need to explore that option. I'd like my kids and grandkids to be able to at least fire a few shells through the gun due to the family history. But so far the risk of damaging the gun or injuring one of the kids has out weighed the desire for them to shoot it.

[mehavey]

> Some authorities consider the best Damascus barrels, properly proofed, to be capable
> of handling light smokeless powder loads. However, considerable expertise, probably
> beyond that of the average gunsmith, is required to determine which Damascus barrels are
> safe with such ammunition. With these considerations in mind, the owner of even a "best quality"
> shotgun with Damascus barrels should avoid firing the gun with any smokeless powder loads.
https://www.nrafamily.org/articles/2...eled-shotguns/

See also: https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php...mered-doubles/

[jrothWA]

that recently obtained a copy of the salesman information , hich indicates that the barrels were proffed with the current smkelss loads used @ that time.

My father last used it in 1967 with Remington high-brass paper green hull shells with #4 shot.

I am presently considering making brasshulls shells with blackpowder and bismuth shot.A well-known gunsmithing doea offer re-proofing to current
London / Biringham proof house for blackpowder.

Do research and choose wisely.

Good Luck.

[44 AMP]

My Stepfather left me a double barrel shotgun with Damascus barrels! doesn't that indicate Black Powder only?

Yes. and, no.

Yes, because of the Damascus construction, and no, because of the age of the gun.

Damascus barrels were made by winding 6 or 8 straps of steel around a mandrel and hammer welding them together. they were considered the top grade available. Cheaper versions used 2 or 4 straps and were called "twist" or "stub twist" barrels.

Made up through the 20s, by some makers before being replaced in the market by solid barrels. Solid "bored" barrels were called "fluid steel" by Ithaca and "Nickel Steel" by Winchester, and I believe other makers had their own trade names.

The problem with Damascus & twist barrels today is from their method of manufacture. Fully safe for black powder when new, now a century of more later there is a risk. The risk is from the hammer welding process, it leaves "gaps" inside the weld, which cannot be seen by visual inspection. And, I don't know of any x-ray or any thing like that that can see inside the gape and tell if there is rust in there, or not.

And that's the risk. Rust, inside the welds weakening them, POSSIBLY to the point where the barrels are no longer safe even for black powder. AND, even if the gun survives being re-proofed that is no guarantee that it won't fail later on.

SO I would recommend all of the old Damascus barrel guns be retired to wall hanger status, just to be on the safe side.

Damascus guns won't "explode" fired with smokeless, in any predicable "time frame" (number of shots). They might go another 100 years or they might let go the next time you pull the trigger, and no one can say when.

Here's a story to illustrate the point,

My Grandfather had an Ithaca gun he liked, and it had twist barrels. A farmer neighbor tried to talk him out of it, and after many years of saying no, he finally gave in and sold the neighbor that gun. He replaced it with another Ithaca, one with fluid steel barrels in 1909. (note the date). I have that gun today, and its still a great gun. The twist barrel gun he sold to his neighbor had 8 inches of the left barrel "unravel" in the early 1940s. The old twist gun lasted another 30+ years and then let go.

I don't have any evidence but it was very likely due to shooting smokeless shells. The fluid steel barrels of my grandfather's gun were rated for smokeless loads when they were made, and are still very good, though not for magnum ammo.

IF otherwise in good shape, you can shoot that Damascus gun with black powder shells. There is a risk, but you can do it, taking suitable precautions. I would not shoot "black powder pressure smokeless loads". While the peak pressure is within black powder limits, the pressure curve of smokeless is different, and could be different enough to cause a Damascus barrel to fail. You just can't tell, until it does fail.
I think the best choice is to retire the Damascus barrel gun. Clean it up (they are pretty) and display it as a relic of days long past.

Certainly better than perhaps losing a finger, or three...

[FrankenMauser]

What is the shotgun?

A lot of people are fooled by "Damascene" and think they have Damascus barrels, when it isn't true.
Make and model may be helpful.

Damascus, twist, and wire-wound barrels, in general... Not worth the risk.
Hang it. Appreciate it. Don't risk it.

[44 AMP]

For a long time, Damascus barrels were "the best" and also the most expenisve. They were considered better than the solid steel bored barrels for some time, as well.

It took a couple decades or so for most of the market to finally realize that "modern" steel barrels were actually superior to Damascus, and some few folks never made that particular leap.

TO boost their market appeal, some guns (usually from the lower end makers) put a Damascus LOOKING finish on the solid steel barrels. IT is possible you have one of those, and, if so, and in sound condition, it could be safely used with smokeless ammo.

BUT you'll need to have an "expert" look at it, to be sure. If it does turn out to be safe with modern ammo, enjoy it! But, don't ever, EVER put steel shot in it.

[Jim Watson]

While the peak pressure is within black powder limits, the pressure curve of smokeless is different, and could be different enough to cause a Damascus barrel to fail. You just can't tell, until it does fail.

Second time I've seen that one today.
While I do not consider the typical Damascus barrel a good bet, I would still like to see those "pressure curves." They are frequently mentioned in connection with "rated" old guns, but never shown or referenced.

[jaguarxk120]

Condition is everything, I have seen Damascus barreled guns that were shot
at trap events. But black powder was used, just depends on how the gun is proofed.

Point in note, Purdy will build you a nice over/under with Damascus barrels that is proofed for nitro. Depends how deep your pockets are, very deep.

[Jim Watson]

The last time I looked, that Purdey was 101,000 pounds sterling, currently about $125,000. But it is made out of Damasteel, Swedish powder metallurgy that is far stronger than forge welded twist. And ALL the large parts are Damasteel, receiver included. Not engraved, the random patterns are considered sufficient embellishment.

[mehavey]

Originally Posted by Jim_Watson

I would still like to see those "pressure curves.

SEE: https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/in...1938#msg211938
(or did you have another source in mind?)

[Jim Watson]

Driftwood Johnson referred me to that one and some others similar.
There were some hand drawn diagrams in the old NRA Handloading compilation.
I would not have been allowed to publish stuff like that when I was in R&D.

[Drm50]

I’ve seen a few twist barrels blow out with smokeless. One in particular was a lever action Winchester. I told this guy when we were in high school he shouldn’t be shooting modern ammo in that gun. This would have been 64 or 65. Guy hunted rabbits all the time. Fast forward to early 2000s. Ohio deer season, Winchester slug blowed gun up bad. He had been hunting deer all those years too, which I didn’t know.

[Jim Watson]

Where did it blow out?
We now get descriptions of sharp early spikes from smokeless.
Once upon a time it was said that the risk to Damascus barrels was the progressive nature of smokeless, carrying pressure farther down the barrel where it was acceptable to taper out a black powder barrel to thin walls for good balance. My neighbor the gunsmith had a cheap Damascus double on the wall with a plug blown out the left barrel about where your hand would be.

[Bill DeShivs]

Probably the only way to safely shoot these old guns is with sub caliber sleeves or adapters.

[Jim Watson]

A set of skeet type tubes would be the simplest approach.

There have been Damascus barrels "sleeved" by cutting them off ahead of the lumps, reaming out the chamber, and setting in a steel barrel the same way a new "Monobloc" gun is made. Briley used to do it for $1800 but do not now catalog the job.
This seems fairly common in England where there are a lot of nice Damascus guns that are not expected to pass nitro proof.

There are also a couple of shops in England that will ream out the whole Damascus barrel paper thin and set in a full length steel liner of the original gauge. From what I read the last time around, this seems to be like a Jaguar sports car... occasionally everything works perfectly. Lining a gauge down is safer, but even a 12 to 16 conversion is going to mess with the balance of a good game gun.

[FITASC]

If the barrels are still in proof - i.e., no voids or other signs of deterioration that an experienced gunsmith can detect) then low pressure ammo from RST is just fine. It ALL depends on the age and condition of the gun in question. But, it is not a definitive NO, it is more like a cautious MAYBE.

[eastbank]

i shoot alot of black powder shotgun shells, but they are shot out of a newer double barrel imported by charles daly model 500 made by mikuro in japan. i have taken alot of small game with it. i would never trust a old wire twist shotgun.