UPDATE - Personal Firearms on Military Installations

[vranasaurus]

Originally Posted BGutzman

The Uniform Code Of Military Justice and is an archaic code of laws that has changed little since 1950-1951 when it was written and passed.

It has many valuable regulations that are necessary to regulating a well ordered military and many throwbacks to a different time and place. The end result is a code that is almost unlimited in power and results in a 98-99% conviction rate of anyone charged with violating it although it does have other alternatives that are up to a given level of commander depending on the particular crime.

As an extreme example you could be convicted of the crime of walking on the grass should a commander see fit to do so and your act was committed during nonphysical training hours and you had no need to cross some blessed section of grass.

It is literally that broad in scope although "most" commanders would not take it this far it could be if any commander chose to for any reason at any time.

The U.C.M.J applies to a person in the military on active duty at all times and in all places, even on leave (vacation).

UCMJ gives a commander almost kingly like powers over a person and commanders at higher and high levels are not unlike a king of a nation over a king of a state and the king of a state over a king of some smaller region.

This is somewhat of a over simplification but should be good enough to give someone who has not lived under it an idea of how it more or less works.

I know this all sounds very negative and theres a lot of truth in that but there is also a lot of necessary regulation that are absolutely necessary to good order of a military.. For myself I just think it needs to be updated to our current reality, but thats my personal opinion.

I am a Sergeant First Class in the US Army and my MOS is paralegal. I deal with the UCMJ on a daily basis and I couldn't disagree more.

The UCMJ does not give the commander king like powers. Persons charge under the UCMJ get a trial and are afforded the same constitutional rights as those charged in civilian courts.

You could be convicted of walking on the grass if given an order not to do so before hand. However, no one is going to be tried for doing that. The time and effort required to court martial a Soldier is enormous. No trial counsel (prosecutor) is going to support such a charge. The response will simply be "Give him a counseling statement".


Servicemembers have the right to decline nonjudicial punishment (except those embarked on a vessel) and trial by sumary court martial.

Soldier's have the right to repsentation by counsel (current Army practice is two TDS attorneys for an accused at trial), the right to remain silent, the right to a jury trial, and the right against unreasonable search and siezure (inspections excluded but must not be targeted against one person).

Soldiers must always be read their rights when suspected of a crime because of the custodial nature of military service.

Courts Martial are governed by the military rules of evidence which mirror the federal rules of evidence.

In contested trials i would guess the military conviction rate is pobably the same as it is in the civillian system. The government still has to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

The militay justice system is not perfect but it is not a system that deprives an accused of rights and imposes summary punishment at will.

[BGutzman]

UCMJ does not give the commander king like powers. Persons charge under the UCMJ get a trial and are afforded the same constitutional rights as those charged in civilian courts

And what civilian court has a 90% conviction rate like the military or are we to believe that military law enforcement is so superior that there just that good?

You could be convicted of walking on the grass if given an order not to do so before hand. However, no one is going to be tried for doing that. The time and effort required to court martial a Soldier is enormous. No trial counsel (prosecutor) is going to support such a charge. The response will simply be "Give him a counseling statement".

And yet the fact remains that if a commander chose to this could happen.
In what other profession does your boss have this power? Dont take me wrong I raised my hand and did my duty but make no mistake some parts of the UCMJ are antique and outdated.

Servicemembers have the right to decline nonjudicial punishment (except those embarked on a vessel) and trial by sumary court martial

Name another job were being late several times can result in a Federal conviction? Whos going to refuse a article 15 and face a federal conviction under a 90% conviction rate.... Only a fool.

Im not claiming that UCMJ is evil or some thing or that every evil thing under the sun is approved of under it, but make no mistake it was written in the 50's and what century are we in? Im not even saying much of the UCMJ isnt valuable but abuse of it is easy and much of it is outdated.

Much like most everything else a review every 50 years or so is probably helpful.

In contested trials i would guess the military conviction rate is pobably the same as it is in the civillian system. The government still has to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

For someone who works in the military legal system I am astonished that you dont know the conviction rate.. Im not making it up...

Do you know that military people arent even afforded sleep under regulation? All you need is 4 hours of rest. - This is the kind of stuff I am driving at old, outdated and out moded.

Yes absolutely the military needs regulations but the 50 year review is well overdue.

Further SFC tell me if a commander at a given level chooses not to court marshal a person what then happens? Is the person court marshalled? No....
not unless over ruled by a higher commander... sounds a lot like a king to me especially since the commander doesnt have to even refer it to a prosecutor is he or she chooses not to..

Much like the JAG office, complain all you want, the little sign in ever single office says that ultimately any complaint to the Jag does not over rules the commanders final decision. (again Kingly)

Now I know all this sounds so against UCMJ but I am not, its a new century, time for a new review of the laws. Keep the regulations essential to good order but as for me now retired I will be out there walking across the grass.

I included a link but it was unfair so I deleted it as these guys were too far out there. I looked for the 98% conviction rates stats but it looks like 90% is the currently google accepted rate.. Crazy to go against those odds.

Oh yea the company commander that wouldnt let my unit have rounds seemed mighty kingly when the FOB was attacked and we had nothing but harsh looks to use. Fortunately the parimeter held otherwise it was me and my trusty Gerber MK II that I always carried because its better you end up in a box than on then news. I always carried a knife because most the places I have been fired upon we had no ammunition to fire back well at least until the 2nd half of afganistan.

PS SFC Thank you for your service.

[vranasaurus]

The justice sysem has a very high conviction rate because prosecutors drop cases that are unlikely to result in coviction. Cases that will likely result in acquital are almost never tried. The same is true for the military justice system. We have a high conviction rate because we are choosy about what we take to trial. BTW, does your 90% rate include guilty pleas?

Being late is a misdemeanor punishable by a maximum of 1 month confinement forfeitture of 2/3 pay per month for one month.

If you are late a lot you wil likely be offered nonjudicial punishment and if it continues you will be administratively separated. Name me a job where being habitually late won't get you reprimanded, demoted, and fired.

If a Soldier did demand trial and were convicted they would only be guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a maximum of one month confinement.

Can you be tried for being late? Absolutely, but it just doesn't happen.

I don't think you understand that the UCMJ is reviewed every couple of years and changes are recommended to congress. One of the most recent proposals is to give prosecutors and article 32 officers subpoena power prior to charges being referred to trial.

Abuse of the UCMJ is not easy because of the practical realities of the system. We don't have enugh prsecutors, judges, court reporters, and defense attorneys to try frivolous cases.

The nature of military service requires that disobeying orders, being absent without leave, etc.. be cimes and thus punishable.

It seems to me you have an issue with certain policies and regulations and not the UCMJ.

What exactly would you change about the UCMJ?

[BGutzman]

Obviously were not going to cross the divide on this one which is ok.

My problem with UCMJ -

Officers and NCOs do need to be able to order actions completed and jobs done but stupidity is also rampant in some units.

Why should I ever see soldiers running in shorts in the snow or running in a very heavy storm with electricity all over the place... Just because some jerk wad has the power to do so? At some point someone needs to implement a process where stupidity stops. Yes, all military people need to be able to face a harsh environment but shorts in snow, really? Running in the open in an extreme storm, really that’s a military need?

The other problem I have is the ROE is absolutely nuts in many places. I personally have had a ROE that was two full typed pages and I have a buddy who says his was over five. (ROE = what you must or must not do when attempting to legally shoot at an enemy)

I certainly have a problem with units and major commands that require a sworn statement from every soldier that expends so much as one bullet at the BG's. How many bullets are you going to shoot at the BG's when by lawful order you have no choice to write a sworn statement so it can be used against you for doing your job if your command so chooses. Where are your legal protections here SFC?

I personally know a soldier who was going to be prosecuted for violating ROE. The guy shot a BG with a remote in his hand that was moving his hand to activate the IED. The BG blew up although the soldier shot him at the same time he pressed the button. The soldier and his team went down and part of the BG's head ended up in the Soldiers lap where he lay on the ground.

End result CNS damage from some fragments that resulted in the soldier having uncontrollable bowel movements as a permanent reminder of the day and yet he ended up a breath from prosecution.

These are my problems with UCMJ and should not happen and could not happen if it was reformed in any meaningful way.

Yes commanders need to be able to order a troop to face a machine gun nest or a sniper or whatever and it needs to be enforceable but the abuse of power doesn’t even get a thought and for that the welfare of troops suffer.

For myself my personal experience was an airborne brigade commander who decided I couldn't leave Afghanistan for three days to retrieve my children from my EX who broke a court order in not returning them to my wife for the beginning of the school year. I gave my personal word that I only needed three days stateside and I would head back to Afghanistan. I even provided the commander a copy of the court order faxed from my wife.

End result I served 4 more months in Afghanistan, my ex-wife moved and didn't leave a forwarding address and filed court papers in another county basically saying I abandon the children and making no mention that I was fighting in Afghanistan.

The end result in a nut shell was a miserable me under fire and lawfully restricted from protecting my own family. When I pleaded with my state senator I ended up being treated like a second class citizen. My command recommended me for a Bronze star before we left Afghanistan (I still have the recommendation citation) and the commander over my unit disagreed I can only surmise because I complained.

When I got stateside my feet touched the ground at my home post, I was forced to stand for 2 1/2 hours in a ceremony before being released. I got on the internet and found a current address for my ex, slept 8 hours and then drove the next day (Friday) to Texas and retrieved my kids from the school where she had enrolled them.

Should I have had to endure all this.... no but I raised my hand and swore the oath and even in the worst of it I had a good attitude but the guilt I felt for my family was beyond words.

UCMJ is not evil, it’s outdated and abused.

[gc70]

My problem with UCMJ -

Officers and NCOs do need to be able to order actions completed and jobs done but stupidity is also rampant in some units.

Your problem with the asylum seems to originate from the inmates who are sometimes in charge. There will always be stupidity and indignities, large and small, to be endured, whether in the military or civilian world (I've experienced both).

[vranasaurus]

Your problem is with how the Army is managed not the UCMJ

[BGutzman]

It is UCMJ that allows all this to happen with little to no review and that is why in part UCMJ needs to be updated and yes the managment sucks.

thats my last nickle on UCMJ.