The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 4, 2011, 01:37 PM   #51
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
Ok, Bloomberg hates guns. Did the sellers play into his hands?

What's the conclusion?
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old February 4, 2011, 01:49 PM   #52
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKlawMan
Who cares where the officers were from, if they had any jurisdiction, or even if they had not acquired Arizona residency and may have violated Arizona law - THE POINT IS THAT IT IS EASY for the resident of New York to hop on a plane and get a weapon in Arizona.

So what? It's easy for a resident of NY to get an illegal gun in NY. Why would he go all the way to AZ to do it?


It's odd how people are continuously surprised that criminals will do illegal things.

You might as well be shocked when the sun rises tomorrow.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old February 4, 2011, 04:13 PM   #53
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
The problem, PK....

... is that we need to make it illegal to use guns in commission of felonies.

Oh, wait...

Um.... we need to make assault and murder illegal...

This is tougher than I thought.
MLeake is offline  
Old February 4, 2011, 05:00 PM   #54
zxcvbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,720
Quote:
So what? It's easy for a resident of NY to get an illegal gun in NY. Why would he go all the way to AZ to do it?
Because he wants to exploit the Gabby Giffords shooting.
__________________
"Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth
zxcvbob is offline  
Old February 4, 2011, 05:32 PM   #55
Evan Thomas
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 5,631
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKlawMan
THE POINT IS THAT IT IS EASY for the resident of New York to hop on a plane and get a weapon in Arizona.
Not to hijack the thread, but I suspect that it might be a bit more problematic to hop back on the plane with the (illegally acquired) gun in one's luggage.

I haven't flown in a while, with or without firearms... when you check a gun with your luggage, does the TSA make any attempt to determine if you're legally in possession of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
Ok, Bloomberg hates guns. Did the sellers play into his hands?

What's the conclusion?
I still want to know what proportion of the sellers who were approached by his investigators backed off when they learned the potential buyer might not pass the background check. Without that information, it's hard to draw much of a conclusion, and I somehow don't think Mr. Bloomberg plans to tell us...
__________________
Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry.
Evan Thomas is offline  
Old February 4, 2011, 09:33 PM   #56
Musketeer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2005
Posts: 3,733
Quote:
Not to hijack the thread, but I suspect that it might be a bit more problematic to hop back on the plane with the (illegally acquired) gun in one's luggage.

I haven't flown in a while, with or without firearms... when you check a gun with your luggage, does the TSA make any attempt to determine if you're legally in possession of it?
It depends on where you are leaving from. Case in point, I flew from Long Island NY to Orlando FL and back.

Leaving NY the local PD at the airport were also called who confirmed the SN on my handgun was the same as the one on my permit. NY requires a permit to OWN a handgun and every gun owned is listed on said permit. Picking up in FL was simple, just a normal bag. Your gun carrying luggage is NOT flagged.

Returning from FL only required the confirmation of the firearm's status (unloaded and packed per the TSA and Southwest requirements). There was no looking for a permit, SN or anything else although it was clear I was from NY and going there. Picking up in NY was simp picking up a bag, unmarked and the same as thousands of others.
__________________
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Thomas Jefferson

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin
Musketeer is offline  
Old February 4, 2011, 10:28 PM   #57
silvercorvette
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2010
Location: Anderson SC
Posts: 466
When I became a cop in 1970 one of the first things that we were instructed to be careful of was to not get involved if crimes taking place outside our jurisdiction. Without knowing all the details I can't be sure but it is possible they can be arrested
__________________
I am broke, I spent my money on fast cars, guns, reloading equipment and ammo, the rest my money was wasted on nonessential stuff
silvercorvette is offline  
Old February 5, 2011, 03:09 AM   #58
jimpeel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 11, 1999
Location: Longmont, CO, USA
Posts: 4,530
Glenn,

Quote:
Ok, Bloomberg hates guns. Did the sellers play into his hands?
They played into his hands unknowingly as their actions were their own. The fraudulent investigators gave them an opportunity to violate the law and they did so.

Quote:
What's the conclusion?
The people who were tricked would not have been so if they had simply adhered to the law regardless of their desire to sell a firearm. The cardinal rule is WHEN IN DOUBT, DON'T.
__________________
Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
jimpeel is offline  
Old February 5, 2011, 04:51 AM   #59
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
jimpeel...

... I'm not so sure they broke any law.

Were the sellers FFLs? If so, they have to do the paperwork.

If they were private sellers, then they have lesser standards to meet.

As far as a guy saying, "I probably wouldn't pass a check," I haven't heard the tape. Did the guy sound sneaky, or snarky? (Anybody who's been on active duty has probably heard jokes about anything from drugs to hookers in the luggage, hope they don't check, etc...) My point being, did the guy sound like he was actually serious, or did he make light of it like he was just being funny?

Too many variables.
MLeake is offline  
Old February 5, 2011, 04:10 PM   #60
jimpeel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 11, 1999
Location: Longmont, CO, USA
Posts: 4,530
Most gun shows now have a requirement that anything that is sold under their roof has to have a background check done before the sale. They have FFLs there working the phones for that purpose only.

The private seller has to take the sale to one of those FFLs to do the NICS check to sell a firearm at the show.

I have no idea if this particular gun show had those provisions or what the law is in the state of AZ.
__________________
Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
jimpeel is offline  
Old February 5, 2011, 06:22 PM   #61
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
That's not the case in Tx but I don't see that many private collection (hmm) tables lately.

Went to the show today and was it crowded. Wow. Bought lots of ammo!

glenn
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old February 5, 2011, 06:29 PM   #62
egor20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2010
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,824
jimpeel

Haven't been to a gun show in Virginia in a year or so but I rarely saw dealers calling into NICS for FFLs, although a friend of mine said some dealers were asking for proof of Citizenship for some "assault type" weapons lately.
__________________
Chief stall mucker and grain chef

Country don't mean dumb.
Steven King. The Stand
egor20 is offline  
Old February 5, 2011, 08:21 PM   #63
armoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,295
No background check time waster at AZ gunshows for private sellers. Times were it was ONLY private sellers at a gun SHOW, dealers were forbidden. Then they changed that, and quantity went up, along with prices.
I don't care what Bloomers wanted to prove, all he proved was he pulled a publicity stunt in a state he has no jurisdiction in, same as if we staged drug buys on camera in his town to prove his cops are ineffective. Also, if his people didn't report the crime, (as the sellers did violate the law if they heard the guy and understood that the comment meant he was probably prohibited), then they certainly should be arrested as accessories to a crime, and Bloomers prosecuted under RICO for fomenting multiple crimes across state lines.
unfortunately Bloomers has many powerful political cronies, and when those run out, his vast resources will buy more cronies.
armoredman is offline  
Old February 5, 2011, 08:55 PM   #64
Musketeer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2005
Posts: 3,733
Quote:
As far as a guy saying, "I probably wouldn't pass a check," I haven't heard the tape.
I heard it.

Buyer: Do you need to do a background check?

Seller: No

Buyer: "I probably wouldn't pass a check,"

sale proceeds...

There is a pretty high standard to prove the seller knows anything but it was clearly met here.
__________________
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Thomas Jefferson

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin
Musketeer is offline  
Old February 5, 2011, 09:12 PM   #65
DRBoyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2010
Posts: 124
Hey guess what?! Sometimes rebirthed cars are sold as geunine vehicles too!
They might even be used in a crime or two.
How about cars are banned?

DRBoyle is offline  
Old February 6, 2011, 12:00 AM   #66
jimpeel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 11, 1999
Location: Longmont, CO, USA
Posts: 4,530
Already been done, ad nauseum.

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/infor...em.asp?ID=1243

http://www.kc3.com/news/carsvguns.htm

http://reason.com/archives/1999/11/0...to-the-streets
__________________
Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
jimpeel is offline  
Old February 6, 2011, 07:00 PM   #67
silvercorvette
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 26, 2010
Location: Anderson SC
Posts: 466
Quote:
Most gun shows now have a requirement that anything that is sold under their roof has to have a background check done before the sale. They have FFLs there working the phones for that purpose only.
It isn't required in SC, and it shouldn't be. I bought a few guns in and out of guns shows through private parties in SC and never had a check done unless I was buying from a dealer.

The fallacy if the so called loop hole is that private party sales do not require checks and there is no reason they should be required because you are in a gun show.

Even if checks were required it would be legal for 2 people to step outside the building and do the transaction. But once the anti gunners get the gun shot law the next step will be to include all private sales
__________________
I am broke, I spent my money on fast cars, guns, reloading equipment and ammo, the rest my money was wasted on nonessential stuff
silvercorvette is offline  
Old February 6, 2011, 11:52 PM   #68
jimpeel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 11, 1999
Location: Longmont, CO, USA
Posts: 4,530
Maybe I was too hasty when I said "most". It seems that I erred.

Here in Colorado:

Quote:
The language that appeared on the ballot: Initiative Statute Analysis by Colorado Legislative Council: Requires background checks if any part of a gun purchase takes place at a gun show with the exception of antique guns, curios and relics; requires a designated licensed gun dealer to obtain background checks, and to keep records of purchases as he or she would when selling, renting, or exchanging at retail; defines a gun show as any event or function where 25 or more guns are offered or exhibited for sale, transfer, or exchange, or at least three gun owners exhibit, sell, offer for sale, transfer, or exchange guns; and creates misdemeanor penalties punishable by jail, fines, or both.

Background and Provisions of the Proposal: Federal law requires gun dealers "people who are in the business of selling guns" to be licensed. Licensed gun dealers must request a background check and get approval prior to a gun sale. Private individuals who occasionally sell or exchange guns are not required to be licensed, obtain a background check, or get approval prior to a sale. People who want to buy guns at gun shows may choose to buy from either a licensed gun dealer or a private individual.

This proposal requires at least one designated licensed gun dealer to obtain background checks on behalf of private individuals who sell guns at gun shows. The licensed gun dealer may charge a fee of up to ten dollars for this service. The proposal creates penalties for violations of its provisions, including providing false information for the background check and failing to request a background check and get approval prior to a gun sale. The penalties include six to 24 months in jail, a fine of $500 to $5,000, or both.


Fiscal Impact: The Office of State Planning and Budgeting has determined that implementation of the measure would require a General Fund appropriation of between $357,383 and $494,211 for the first fiscal year of full implementation, which would include: - 10 to 15 additional temporary employees; - 2 to 3 additional full-time employees for appeals from denied purchases; - additional leased space; and - additional computer and capital expenses for 12 to 18 employees.

There may be an additional cost for a web-based computer interface in the amount of approximately $578,060.

The Office of State Planning and Budgeting has determined that implementation of the measure would require a General Fund appropriation of between $297,416 and $411,227 for the subsequent fiscal year, which would include: - 10 to 15 temporary employees; - 2 to 3 full-time employees for appeals from denied purchases; and - leased space.

There may be an additional cost of $31,500 for continuation of the web-based computer interface. In addition to these costs, it is likely that there would be state and local costs for law enforcement and incarceration, but the amount of such costs is indeterminate.
__________________
Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm.

"Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare

"Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed"
-- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey
jimpeel is offline  
Old February 7, 2011, 04:52 PM   #69
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Musketeer, my question wasn't about whether it was said, but how it was said.

IE, was it a nervous, "man we could get in trouble for this" statement, or more of a jokey, good ol'boy having fun tone of voice?

Personally, I only sell FtF to people I know, and use FFL transfers for sales to strangers (including TFL members I don't know firsthand). But I'm kind of conservative that way.
MLeake is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.12364 seconds with 10 queries