NFA Self Defense?

death2twinkys · July 22, 2011, 05:44 PM

Just put payment down on a Serbu Supershorty and just heard a rumor that I could get into trouble when using it for self defense. Is this true, and if so wth how does that make sense. I doubt its true where I'm from, Montana.

Edit: sorry if this is a repost i couldn't find a thread about it...

Glenn Dee · July 22, 2011, 06:32 PM

What exactly is a Serbu super shorty?

death2twinkys · July 22, 2011, 06:44 PM

http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

Here's their site, but mine is a Remington 870 with a pistol grip and 6.5in barrel that falls under AOW category.

Sefner · July 22, 2011, 06:59 PM

Here is a link to an article by Massad Ayoob his name be praised that talks of a shooting that occured with an NFA gun. It was a select fire rifle, not a short-barrel shotgun, in this case. But the shooter was put under an immense amount of scrutiny due to his use of the select fire rifle. This was mainly due to having the politically-charged aspect of a select-fire rifle. In this case the prosecution fell apart because they based their case on the shooter's use of a select-fire rifle.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_112685749/

death2twinkys · July 22, 2011, 07:33 PM

Cool, thanks. As usual Massad Ayoob answers my questions before I could even think of it.

**Frank Ettin** · July 22, 2011, 07:38 PM

And jury simulation studies as describe in this article suggest that the type of gun used can affect the perceptions of a jury. (The author, Dr. Glenn Meyer, is a moderator here.)

Standing Wolf · July 22, 2011, 09:01 PM

Quote:

The gun holds two 2-3/4" or 3" shells in the magazine, plus one in the chamber.

Oh. Never mind.

Glenn Dee · July 23, 2011, 01:57 AM

Ohhhhh...One of those huh? Dont mean to sound ignorant but I find myself wondering why?

teeroux · July 23, 2011, 02:35 AM

I wanna say Massad Ayoob had written something about a fella working for HK. He lit up a friend of a biker with a legally possesed AC556 and. Oh while typing I see someone posted the article.

Eghad · July 23, 2011, 03:29 PM

If you are buying a firearm for self defense. You might want to read some of Mr. Ayoob's writings. One problem with the courts in this country are prosecutors who forget about the law and want to go on a personal crusade based on their belief system while forgetting the oath to uphold the law.

My personal opinion is just to buy a shotgun sold over the counter with a shorter barrel for home defense and save yourself some money. That cuts out any argument by an overzealous prosecutor when it is used for self defense.

death2twinkys · July 23, 2011, 03:37 PM

Why...? Because I want it and its my right to own it? Beyond that small lightweight 12 gauge good for the close quarters that a home would create also over pen would be brought to a minimum. Mostly though its going to be my only 12 gauge and if something happens I want to know if I grab it because someone kicked in my front door at 2am if I'm going to prison for it.

Edit: eghad I'm not buying specifically for HD just trying to CYA in the future.

**Frank Ettin** · July 23, 2011, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by death2twinkys

Why...? Because I want it and its my right to own it?....

Then why ask the question?

Quote:

Originally Posted by death2twinkys

...Beyond that small lightweight 12 gauge good for the close quarters that a home would create also over pen would be brought to a minimum....

I'm not sure. I think it remains to be seen how suitable the Serbu Supershorty really is for close quarters home defense. I'd like to see some commentary from experienced instructors putting the weapon through some well thought out drills and trials. It looks cool, but I wonder how that translates to a workable platform for home defense and what sort of training would be helpful in optimizing its effectiveness.

How wold you plan to train with it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by death2twinkys

...if something happens I want to know if I grab it because someone kicked in my front door at 2am if I'm going to prison for it.

Well the bottom line is that there is no guarantee, one way or the other. The gist of Dr. Meyer's article and what Massad Ayoob has written, is that weapon choice can be a risk factor. You need to decide if any advantage is worth the risk.

Personally, I try to minimized these sorts of risks as much as possible -- and so have some pretty pedestrian handguns for self defense use. And I've trained sufficiently to be reasonably confident in my ability to use them effectively.

death2twinkys · July 23, 2011, 04:20 PM

Thats what the 1911 is there for also u missed my edit... Not buying for HD just wanted to cover my rear...

MLeake · July 23, 2011, 04:53 PM

Out of curiousity, have you been able to shoot one of these, before going through all the hassle and expense involved in acquiring one? If so, how was it?

A 6" 12ga doesn't sound like much fun, to me, but there are definitely some recoil junkies out there.

death2twinkys · July 23, 2011, 04:56 PM

Not yet but i have seen quite a few youtube videos. So... should be fun right?

highvel · July 23, 2011, 04:57 PM

Me, I use only certain weapons for SD, they are selected by power, confidence, price, not necessarily in that order.

MLeake · July 23, 2011, 05:05 PM

"Confidence" for me involves several factors:

1) Is the weapon reliable?
2) Can I consistently hit my target with it?
3) Is it quick to bring to bear?
4) Is it quick for follow-up shots?

My concern with the weapon under discussion would be with 2 and 4. Legal concerns would be there as well, but would be less important than 2 and 4. YMMV.

death2twinkys · July 23, 2011, 05:15 PM

For 2 correct me if I'm wrong but when I read the NRAs home defence manual thing back in 05 it said most HD situations occur within 2 yards so if you can miss at that range well... good job?

and For 4 I couldn't imagine it would take any longer than any other 870

But you do make an excellent point of SD criteria and while mine arn't as succinctly laid out they are very similar to my own.

Glenn Dee · July 23, 2011, 06:06 PM

Twinky...
I have personally used a legally minimum length shotgun for work. Qualified with it twice a year. There's a lot going on with Short Barreled shotguns you may not understand. I agree there might be some legitimate use for one like that... You'd need some serious training. They are very very dangerous and require special handling, and use.

Based on my training, and experience a SBS is the absolout last thing I'd want to open up with in my home. It is a novelty. I get it.... no reason you cant own one... You have every right to own one... But it's not what you think.

Glenn D.

death2twinkys · July 23, 2011, 06:18 PM

Cool its mostly a novelty Gun so.. yea.
Can't Train without one right?
And I am aware a sbs requires specialized training down to even the way you hold it to you know not mess yourself up.

**Frank Ettin** · July 23, 2011, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by death2twinkys

For 2 correct me if I'm wrong but when I read the NRAs home defence manual thing back in 05 it said most HD situations occur within 2 yards so if you can miss at that range well... good job?

and For 4 I couldn't imagine it would take any longer than any other 870

But you do make an excellent point of SD criteria and while mine arn't as succinctly laid out they are very similar to my own.

[1] "Most" is not "all." You should still be able to successfully engage targets at greater distances -- perhaps 15 yards or more.

[2] A 12 gauge pattern at two or three yards is only an inch or slightly more across.

[3] I learned in my Cowboy Action Shooting days that there is no target too close or too big to miss.

[4] Recoil recovery with a super short, stockless shotgun will be a lot slower than with a shotgun with a shoulder stock.

death2twinkys · July 23, 2011, 07:57 PM

True... the question is about the legal repercussions however... but all points are valid... except my apartment doesn't have a 15 meter long open space unless I shoot through a wall and I think that voids my security deposit...

Still good points keep them coming guys.

Glenn Dee · July 23, 2011, 10:00 PM

Death2Twinkeys

Seriously man... an SBS is a really dangerous thing. A nice novelty... but from a practical point of view... It is nothing to play with. You have to be carefull... even in practice. Please do some research, if possible get some training with it. I'd ask you to trust me on this... This thing is no joke...

Al Norris · July 23, 2011, 11:07 PM

Quote:

True... the question is about the legal repercussions however... but all points are valid...

1. The legal aspect has been addressed.
2. No, all points are not valid.

You have virtually dismissed the legal points. Now you are just trolling in a forum setup specifically to address the Law and Civil Rights.

Closed.

July 22, 2011, 05:44 PM	#1
death2twinkys Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2006 Posts: 136	NFA Self Defense? Just put payment down on a Serbu Supershorty and just heard a rumor that I could get into trouble when using it for self defense. Is this true, and if so wth how does that make sense. I doubt its true where I'm from, Montana. Edit: sorry if this is a repost i couldn't find a thread about it... __________________ According to the gun designer of The Matrix. Larry & Andy Wachowski: Who uses a .50 Desert Eagle? Gun Designer: A wanker. Wachowskis: No, who are they made for? Designer: Wankers. Wachowskis: Our wankers in this film want Desert Eagles. Designer: Your film. Last edited by death2twinkys; July 22, 2011 at 05:55 PM.

July 22, 2011, 06:44 PM	#3
death2twinkys Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2006 Posts: 136	http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php Here's their site, but mine is a Remington 870 with a pistol grip and 6.5in barrel that falls under AOW category. __________________ According to the gun designer of The Matrix. Larry & Andy Wachowski: Who uses a .50 Desert Eagle? Gun Designer: A wanker. Wachowskis: No, who are they made for? Designer: Wankers. Wachowskis: Our wankers in this film want Desert Eagles. Designer: Your film.

July 22, 2011, 06:59 PM	#4
Sefner Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 769	Here is a link to an article by Massad Ayoob his name be praised that talks of a shooting that occured with an NFA gun. It was a select fire rifle, not a short-barrel shotgun, in this case. But the shooter was put under an immense amount of scrutiny due to his use of the select fire rifle. This was mainly due to having the politically-charged aspect of a select-fire rifle. In this case the prosecution fell apart because they based their case on the shooter's use of a select-fire rifle. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_112685749/ __________________ gtalk:renfes steamID: Sefner Last edited by Sefner; July 22, 2011 at 07:08 PM.

July 22, 2011, 07:33 PM	#5
death2twinkys Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2006 Posts: 136	Cool, thanks. As usual Massad Ayoob answers my questions before I could even think of it. __________________ According to the gun designer of The Matrix. Larry & Andy Wachowski: Who uses a .50 Desert Eagle? Gun Designer: A wanker. Wachowskis: No, who are they made for? Designer: Wankers. Wachowskis: Our wankers in this film want Desert Eagles. Designer: Your film.

July 23, 2011, 03:29 PM	#10
Eghad Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 6,231	If you are buying a firearm for self defense. You might want to read some of Mr. Ayoob's writings. One problem with the courts in this country are prosecutors who forget about the law and want to go on a personal crusade based on their belief system while forgetting the oath to uphold the law. My personal opinion is just to buy a shotgun sold over the counter with a shorter barrel for home defense and save yourself some money. That cuts out any argument by an overzealous prosecutor when it is used for self defense. __________________ Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member Last edited by Eghad; July 23, 2011 at 03:35 PM.

July 22, 2011, 06:32 PM	#2
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	What exactly is a Serbu super shorty?

July 22, 2011, 07:38 PM	#6
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	And jury simulation studies as describe in this article suggest that the type of gun used can affect the perceptions of a jury. (The author, Dr. Glenn Meyer, is a moderator here.)

July 23, 2011, 01:57 AM	#8
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	Ohhhhh...One of those huh? Dont mean to sound ignorant but I find myself wondering why?

July 23, 2011, 02:35 AM	#9
teeroux Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Posts: 1,512	I wanna say Massad Ayoob had written something about a fella working for HK. He lit up a friend of a biker with a legally possesed AC556 and. Oh while typing I see someone posted the article.

July 23, 2011, 03:37 PM	#11
death2twinkys Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2006 Posts: 136	Why...? Because I want it and its my right to own it? Beyond that small lightweight 12 gauge good for the close quarters that a home would create also over pen would be brought to a minimum. Mostly though its going to be my only 12 gauge and if something happens I want to know if I grab it because someone kicked in my front door at 2am if I'm going to prison for it. Edit: eghad I'm not buying specifically for HD just trying to CYA in the future. __________________ According to the gun designer of The Matrix. Larry & Andy Wachowski: Who uses a .50 Desert Eagle? Gun Designer: A wanker. Wachowskis: No, who are they made for? Designer: Wankers. Wachowskis: Our wankers in this film want Desert Eagles. Designer: Your film. Last edited by death2twinkys; July 23, 2011 at 03:49 PM.

July 23, 2011, 04:20 PM	#13
death2twinkys Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2006 Posts: 136	Thats what the 1911 is there for also u missed my edit... Not buying for HD just wanted to cover my rear... __________________ According to the gun designer of The Matrix. Larry & Andy Wachowski: Who uses a .50 Desert Eagle? Gun Designer: A wanker. Wachowskis: No, who are they made for? Designer: Wankers. Wachowskis: Our wankers in this film want Desert Eagles. Designer: Your film.

July 23, 2011, 04:53 PM	#14
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Out of curiousity, have you been able to shoot one of these, before going through all the hassle and expense involved in acquiring one? If so, how was it? A 6" 12ga doesn't sound like much fun, to me, but there are definitely some recoil junkies out there.

July 23, 2011, 04:56 PM	#15
death2twinkys Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2006 Posts: 136	Not yet but i have seen quite a few youtube videos. So... should be fun right? __________________ According to the gun designer of The Matrix. Larry & Andy Wachowski: Who uses a .50 Desert Eagle? Gun Designer: A wanker. Wachowskis: No, who are they made for? Designer: Wankers. Wachowskis: Our wankers in this film want Desert Eagles. Designer: Your film.

July 23, 2011, 04:57 PM	#16
highvel Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2010 Location: Powhatan VA Posts: 633	Me, I use only certain weapons for SD, they are selected by power, confidence, price, not necessarily in that order. __________________ Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.--Mark Twain "I have opinions of my own 'strong opinions' but I don't always agree with them."--George Bush

July 23, 2011, 05:05 PM	#17
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	"Confidence" for me involves several factors: 1) Is the weapon reliable? 2) Can I consistently hit my target with it? 3) Is it quick to bring to bear? 4) Is it quick for follow-up shots? My concern with the weapon under discussion would be with 2 and 4. Legal concerns would be there as well, but would be less important than 2 and 4. YMMV.

July 23, 2011, 05:15 PM	#18
death2twinkys Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2006 Posts: 136	For 2 correct me if I'm wrong but when I read the NRAs home defence manual thing back in 05 it said most HD situations occur within 2 yards so if you can miss at that range well... good job? and For 4 I couldn't imagine it would take any longer than any other 870 But you do make an excellent point of SD criteria and while mine arn't as succinctly laid out they are very similar to my own. __________________ According to the gun designer of The Matrix. Larry & Andy Wachowski: Who uses a .50 Desert Eagle? Gun Designer: A wanker. Wachowskis: No, who are they made for? Designer: Wankers. Wachowskis: Our wankers in this film want Desert Eagles. Designer: Your film.

July 23, 2011, 06:06 PM	#19
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	Twinky... I have personally used a legally minimum length shotgun for work. Qualified with it twice a year. There's a lot going on with Short Barreled shotguns you may not understand. I agree there might be some legitimate use for one like that... You'd need some serious training. They are very very dangerous and require special handling, and use. Based on my training, and experience a SBS is the absolout last thing I'd want to open up with in my home. It is a novelty. I get it.... no reason you cant own one... You have every right to own one... But it's not what you think. Glenn D.

July 23, 2011, 06:18 PM	#20
death2twinkys Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2006 Posts: 136	Cool its mostly a novelty Gun so.. yea. Can't Train without one right? And I am aware a sbs requires specialized training down to even the way you hold it to you know not mess yourself up. __________________ According to the gun designer of The Matrix. Larry & Andy Wachowski: Who uses a .50 Desert Eagle? Gun Designer: A wanker. Wachowskis: No, who are they made for? Designer: Wankers. Wachowskis: Our wankers in this film want Desert Eagles. Designer: Your film.

July 23, 2011, 07:57 PM	#22
death2twinkys Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2006 Posts: 136	True... the question is about the legal repercussions however... but all points are valid... except my apartment doesn't have a 15 meter long open space unless I shoot through a wall and I think that voids my security deposit... Still good points keep them coming guys. __________________ According to the gun designer of The Matrix. Larry & Andy Wachowski: Who uses a .50 Desert Eagle? Gun Designer: A wanker. Wachowskis: No, who are they made for? Designer: Wankers. Wachowskis: Our wankers in this film want Desert Eagles. Designer: Your film.

July 23, 2011, 10:00 PM	#23
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	Death2Twinkeys Seriously man... an SBS is a really dangerous thing. A nice novelty... but from a practical point of view... It is nothing to play with. You have to be carefull... even in practice. Please do some research, if possible get some training with it. I'd ask you to trust me on this... This thing is no joke...