Belgian Revolver Project...

Magnum Wheel Man · April 13, 2010, 03:22 PM

bought this 11mm Belgian revolver for a project... ( got a great deal on the base gun )... it is double action, & has a rebounding hammer... chambers look like were are going to use a shortened Starline 454 Casull case with the head stamp "Xed" out... & use a .445" rifle round ball seated into the shortened case... & starting with Trailboss again...

just curious if anyone else has played around with one of these 11mm guns...

offer any advice or suggestions on this project... I think it's going to be a fun old big bore to play with...

kodiakbeer · April 13, 2010, 06:07 PM

It looks like a copy of a Webley "Bulldog" or RIC. If so, then you can just use Webley .455 brass which (believe or not) is widely available.

grumpa72 · April 13, 2010, 09:29 PM

Suggestions? That revolver is so fugly that beating it with a 15 # sledge would be considered justifiable.

Ok, now that the humor is done, what would I do? Bury it in the back yard?

Good luck.

James K · April 13, 2010, 11:17 PM

I agree that it is probably chambered for .455 Webley. Cases can be found, and so can loaded ammo (Fiocchi?). Cases can be made by thinning the rim of .45 Colt or .45 Auto Rim by turning down from the front. Load with black powder or light .45 Colt loads.

Do NOT use factory .45 Auto Rim or .45 ACP or their loading data; the pressures are much too high.

Jim

Magnum Wheel Man · April 14, 2010, 06:14 AM

I'll look at 455 Webly cases... & this is old enough... if I can get it shooting, it'll be just with popgun round ball loads similar to what I've been doing with Trailboss & the 32 & 38 S&W cartridges... just a much bigger ball

I took it apart & lubed it up well last night... the trigger & trigger guard ( at least externally ) are really rusty... while cycling it over & over... it seems the spring that pushes out the hand that advances the cylinder my be weak, as everything looks good in the mechanism, yet it's a bit weak in turning the cylinder sometimes... so I'll have to see if I can fix that 1st...

really funny how crisp the cylinder is in the chambers & the star, & how rusty the trigger & trigger guard are... fortunately, the trigger guard comes off easily without effecting any other parts, so I was able to at least get the guard close to bare metal again

kodiakbeer · April 14, 2010, 12:03 PM

Midway has .455 Brass by Bertram:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...m_campaign=652

**Mike Irwin** · April 14, 2010, 12:48 PM

Apparently a significant number of these guns were also made in .450 Adams, which was first introduced in the 1870s and lived on in cheap revolvers right through to World War I.

I'd say it is a safe bet than your gun was intended for use with black powder cartridges only.

Magnum Wheel Man · April 14, 2010, 01:01 PM

The gun is not chambered for 455 Webley, as the bore is smaller .442" -.443" not sure what the bore was on 450 Adams... I'm sure this was originally a heal seated bullet...

at over a $1.00 per case on the 455 Webley, I'd be OK, if I could shoot factory ammo, but since I'm going to have to "X" out the head stamp anyway, the 45 Colt or 454 Casull cases are much more affordable, even though I'll have to cut them down... right now looking at practical ways to size, & re-size the case down to fit the odd sized round ball

**Mike Irwin** · April 14, 2010, 01:27 PM

.450 Adams used a .455 bullet.

Couple of possibilities.

It might be chambered for the French 11mm Mle 1873 French Ordnance Revolver cartridge. This was also apparently a common chambering.

Also possible is the .442 Webley. Also very commonly used in these guns.

Magnum Wheel Man · April 14, 2010, 01:42 PM

my local builder buddy thought most likely the French 11 mm round... which he has data on, so our custom round will at least fall below these specs, since this is no longer a new condition gun...

interesting as I said... the cylinder almost looks like new inside... also interesting, that the barrel & the frame are one piece of metal... barrel almost looks polgonal ... but there is some rifling there also

**Mike Irwin** · April 14, 2010, 01:58 PM

I loaded some rounds for my 11m Mle 1873 revolver many years ago when I was working for NRA.

Used cut down .44 Special cases and a Lee or Lyman bullet mold that sort of cast the right sized bullet. I cast them using straight lead.

I hollowed the bases out on the lathe so that the skirts would expand and widened the grease grooves a bit so that they would hold more tallow.

Loaded 3F black powder and fired them off at the range.

They worked. Accuracy wasn't anything to write home about, of course, but the gun went bang and I hit the paper.

Magnum Wheel Man · April 14, 2010, 02:21 PM

Thanks for the reply... were the 44 cases pretty loose in the chambers ???

as a collector, I just have this need to "be able to shoot it" or I just don't appreciate them the same, if they are not at least functional...

Trailboss IMO... was a great invention for these old guns... just off the top of my head, I'm thinking 0.5cc of trailboss will give me a load that should test the function, but probably won't even swell the cases to the chamber diameter ( depending of course on barrel cylinder gap, weight & fit of the lead balls )

**Mike Irwin** · April 14, 2010, 03:00 PM

they were loose, but not tremendously so, and the black powder did swell them up to a better fit.

batjka · May 3, 2010, 12:18 PM

Magnum,

This revolver is chambered in .442 Webley.

Here's some Wikipedia info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.442_Webley

Magnum Wheel Man · May 3, 2010, 03:16 PM

thanks for the info....

**Mike Irwin** · May 3, 2010, 04:57 PM

Unfortunately, Bat, you can't say definitively that it's chambered for .442 Webley. The Belgian makers were churning out tens of thousands of these guns in quite a few different chamberings depending on where they were going to be shipped.

Over the years I've seen these little pocket guns chambered for .442, .450 Adams, 11 mm French, POSSIBLY .45 Webley, .320 Revolver, .44 Bulldog (apparently these were intended for the US market), .38 Short, and possibly other less common cartridges like 9mm Dutch Revolver.

Caliber markings are usually non-existent, manufacturing tolerances make pinning down the exact chambering iffy, at best...

The great thing about it is that you can often cobble together shootable ammo from existing cases and bullets.

batjka · May 4, 2010, 08:01 AM

While I agree that there were a number of different calibers that the Bulldogs were chambered in, .442 Webley sounds like the most likely candidate, just by looking at the bore diameter. It was a very common chambering and the ballistics are actually not too bad. Does anyone still make these rounds?

**Mike Irwin** · May 4, 2010, 08:35 AM

Oops, I'd forgotten about the bore diameter.

I don't know of anyone loading .442.

batjka · May 4, 2010, 03:13 PM

This is what I've found:

http://www.custombrassandbullets.com/ch4d0831.html

A bit expensive, isn't it?

**Mike Irwin** · May 5, 2010, 12:01 AM

I don't think that page is loading correctly for me. I don't see anything over than a "buy" button and the caliber. Is it loaded ammo, brass, what?

batjka · May 5, 2010, 06:30 AM

I'm pretty sure it's loaded ammo. They do have a contact email. Maybe they'll be able to answer better.

**Mike Irwin** · May 5, 2010, 07:59 AM

If it is loaded ammo (and the price makes that likely) and it's loaded with anything other than black powder, it's not worth the price they're asking for it.

April 13, 2010, 03:22 PM	#1
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	Belgian Revolver Project... bought this 11mm Belgian revolver for a project... ( got a great deal on the base gun )... it is double action, & has a rebounding hammer... chambers look like were are going to use a shortened Starline 454 Casull case with the head stamp "Xed" out... & use a .445" rifle round ball seated into the shortened case... & starting with Trailboss again... just curious if anyone else has played around with one of these 11mm guns... offer any advice or suggestions on this project... I think it's going to be a fun old big bore to play with... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

April 14, 2010, 06:14 AM	#5
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	I'll look at 455 Webly cases... & this is old enough... if I can get it shooting, it'll be just with popgun round ball loads similar to what I've been doing with Trailboss & the 32 & 38 S&W cartridges... just a much bigger ball I took it apart & lubed it up well last night... the trigger & trigger guard ( at least externally ) are really rusty... while cycling it over & over... it seems the spring that pushes out the hand that advances the cylinder my be weak, as everything looks good in the mechanism, yet it's a bit weak in turning the cylinder sometimes... so I'll have to see if I can fix that 1st... really funny how crisp the cylinder is in the chambers & the star, & how rusty the trigger & trigger guard are... fortunately, the trigger guard comes off easily without effecting any other parts, so I was able to at least get the guard close to bare metal again __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

April 14, 2010, 12:48 PM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	Apparently a significant number of these guns were also made in .450 Adams, which was first introduced in the 1870s and lived on in cheap revolvers right through to World War I. I'd say it is a safe bet than your gun was intended for use with black powder cartridges only. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 14, 2010, 01:01 PM	#8
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	The gun is not chambered for 455 Webley, as the bore is smaller .442" -.443" not sure what the bore was on 450 Adams... I'm sure this was originally a heal seated bullet... at over a $1.00 per case on the 455 Webley, I'd be OK, if I could shoot factory ammo, but since I'm going to have to "X" out the head stamp anyway, the 45 Colt or 454 Casull cases are much more affordable, even though I'll have to cut them down... right now looking at practical ways to size, & re-size the case down to fit the odd sized round ball __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

April 14, 2010, 01:27 PM	#9
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	.450 Adams used a .455 bullet. Couple of possibilities. It might be chambered for the French 11mm Mle 1873 French Ordnance Revolver cartridge. This was also apparently a common chambering. Also possible is the .442 Webley. Also very commonly used in these guns. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 13, 2010, 06:07 PM	#2
kodiakbeer Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2010 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 791	It looks like a copy of a Webley "Bulldog" or RIC. If so, then you can just use Webley .455 brass which (believe or not) is widely available.

April 13, 2010, 09:29 PM	#3
grumpa72 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2009 Posts: 487	Suggestions? That revolver is so fugly that beating it with a 15 # sledge would be considered justifiable. Ok, now that the humor is done, what would I do? Bury it in the back yard? Good luck.

April 13, 2010, 11:17 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I agree that it is probably chambered for .455 Webley. Cases can be found, and so can loaded ammo (Fiocchi?). Cases can be made by thinning the rim of .45 Colt or .45 Auto Rim by turning down from the front. Load with black powder or light .45 Colt loads. Do NOT use factory .45 Auto Rim or .45 ACP or their loading data; the pressures are much too high. Jim

April 14, 2010, 12:03 PM	#6
kodiakbeer Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2010 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 791	Midway has .455 Brass by Bertram: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...m_campaign=652

April 14, 2010, 01:42 PM	#10
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	my local builder buddy thought most likely the French 11 mm round... which he has data on, so our custom round will at least fall below these specs, since this is no longer a new condition gun... interesting as I said... the cylinder almost looks like new inside... also interesting, that the barrel & the frame are one piece of metal... barrel almost looks polgonal ... but there is some rifling there also __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

April 14, 2010, 01:58 PM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	I loaded some rounds for my 11m Mle 1873 revolver many years ago when I was working for NRA. Used cut down .44 Special cases and a Lee or Lyman bullet mold that sort of cast the right sized bullet. I cast them using straight lead. I hollowed the bases out on the lathe so that the skirts would expand and widened the grease grooves a bit so that they would hold more tallow. Loaded 3F black powder and fired them off at the range. They worked. Accuracy wasn't anything to write home about, of course, but the gun went bang and I hit the paper. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 14, 2010, 02:21 PM	#12
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	Thanks for the reply... were the 44 cases pretty loose in the chambers ??? as a collector, I just have this need to "be able to shoot it" or I just don't appreciate them the same, if they are not at least functional... Trailboss IMO... was a great invention for these old guns... just off the top of my head, I'm thinking 0.5cc of trailboss will give me a load that should test the function, but probably won't even swell the cases to the chamber diameter ( depending of course on barrel cylinder gap, weight & fit of the lead balls ) __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

April 14, 2010, 03:00 PM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	they were loose, but not tremendously so, and the black powder did swell them up to a better fit. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 3, 2010, 12:18 PM	#14
batjka Member Join Date: December 22, 2009 Posts: 61	Magnum, This revolver is chambered in .442 Webley. Here's some Wikipedia info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.442_Webley

May 3, 2010, 03:16 PM	#15
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	thanks for the info.... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

May 3, 2010, 04:57 PM	#16
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	Unfortunately, Bat, you can't say definitively that it's chambered for .442 Webley. The Belgian makers were churning out tens of thousands of these guns in quite a few different chamberings depending on where they were going to be shipped. Over the years I've seen these little pocket guns chambered for .442, .450 Adams, 11 mm French, POSSIBLY .45 Webley, .320 Revolver, .44 Bulldog (apparently these were intended for the US market), .38 Short, and possibly other less common cartridges like 9mm Dutch Revolver. Caliber markings are usually non-existent, manufacturing tolerances make pinning down the exact chambering iffy, at best... The great thing about it is that you can often cobble together shootable ammo from existing cases and bullets. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 4, 2010, 08:01 AM	#17
batjka Member Join Date: December 22, 2009 Posts: 61	While I agree that there were a number of different calibers that the Bulldogs were chambered in, .442 Webley sounds like the most likely candidate, just by looking at the bore diameter. It was a very common chambering and the ballistics are actually not too bad. Does anyone still make these rounds?

May 4, 2010, 08:35 AM	#18
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	Oops, I'd forgotten about the bore diameter. I don't know of anyone loading .442. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 4, 2010, 03:13 PM	#19
batjka Member Join Date: December 22, 2009 Posts: 61	This is what I've found: http://www.custombrassandbullets.com/ch4d0831.html A bit expensive, isn't it?

May 5, 2010, 12:01 AM	#20
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	I don't think that page is loading correctly for me. I don't see anything over than a "buy" button and the caliber. Is it loaded ammo, brass, what? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 5, 2010, 06:30 AM	#21
batjka Member Join Date: December 22, 2009 Posts: 61	I'm pretty sure it's loaded ammo. They do have a contact email. Maybe they'll be able to answer better.

May 5, 2010, 07:59 AM	#22
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	If it is loaded ammo (and the price makes that likely) and it's loaded with anything other than black powder, it's not worth the price they're asking for it. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.