I'm having a senior moment,,, need a bit of help please,,,,,

aarondhgraham · February 16, 2011, 10:27 AM

What is the name given to the scenario that tested the time in which a man with a knife could close the 21' towards a man with a handgun?

I keep wanting to say it started with the letter T.

Aarond

hoytinak · February 16, 2011, 10:45 AM

Tueller Drill?

Dr_Rich · February 16, 2011, 10:50 AM

My buddy was telling me about this when he was in Juji-kung-do. He was adamant that one wielding a knife could stab someone holding a gun at a range of 21'.

I was going to see if I could google the name of this scenario for you and I ended up finding an article here (Linky) It said: "Upon impact of the bullets, the suspect potentially has another 14 seconds of oxygen with which to operate - enough to run another 210ft or 70yds"

I've never been in this situation, but I would like to think that if a man is running at me with a knife, I'm going to shoot him in the knee and STOP the threat.

...If you've every had severe knee trauma, you know how its pretty much impossible to walk, let alone run.

Oh, and btw. Its called the Tueller Drill.

aarondhgraham · February 16, 2011, 10:53 AM

I knew it started with a T,,,
Just faded on the complete name.

Aarond

Don P · February 16, 2011, 12:55 PM

Senior moments are great, like blonde moments and brain farts. None of which hurt in the least bit.

JustThisGuy · February 16, 2011, 01:12 PM

Good luck on that shoot em' in the kneecap idea. Try to hit a target that small movin' at speed, wiggling side by side at 15 or 20 mph. Yeah, that'll work.

mete · February 16, 2011, 01:30 PM

Senior moments are the best thing occasionally. Mr Tueller proposed it in his training as a guide only !! It is NOT a rule , it is NOT a law , only a guide !! He is not happy about the way it's been distorted .

A BG with a knife is dangerous but within 21' even more so .

Maximus856 · February 16, 2011, 01:38 PM

A gunny I had had us do this drill. He had someone dash towards us from roughly 5-7 yards away from a standstill and we would have to try to draw before they got to us. They attacker had a stick to simulate a knife and we had our sidearms in a standard leg holster. There was maybe one or two times where someone got the sidearm drawn fast enough to get what be considered a 'decent' shot. A belly shot from 'flicking' the pistol up immediately seemed like the only saving grace, however at that point the attacker was well within a striking/slashing range. Perhaps we need some more practice with our sidearms

As a disclaimer, the weapon used was cleared by everybody in the scenario each time and no safety was taken off.

Jim March · February 16, 2011, 01:54 PM

Quote:

My buddy was telling me about this when he was in Juji-kung-do. He was adamant that one wielding a knife could stab someone holding a gun at a range of 21'.

Like Maximus explained, your buddy is wrong - the Tueller drill is also about the time to draw the gun.

raimius · February 16, 2011, 02:23 PM

Also note, the drill is based off of an attacker with knife in hand vs. a person with an open-carry duty rig.

aarondhgraham · February 16, 2011, 03:10 PM

She was a brand new park ranger in Sacramento, California.

Without going into detail she shot and killed a man who came at her with a BIG butcher knife,,,
There was a new Assistant DA who needed to make a name for herself,,,
She was determined to prosecute Kathleen for the shooting.

Her Lawyer arranged for the ADA to go to the Academy,,,
They ran that drill on the ADA several times,,,
A prosecution did not happen.

I was relating that story to a friend,,,
When I blanked on the name of the drill.

Aarond

cambeul41 · February 16, 2011, 04:08 PM

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/T.../How.Close.htm

nefprotector · February 16, 2011, 05:47 PM

"shooting one in the knee"? lol! I think that if a BG was coming at me with 21 seconds of air left & with only one well placed bullet or shot. I think that I would pump a couple more rounds into him to stop the threat.

ZeSpectre · February 16, 2011, 06:06 PM

Put on a plain white t-shirt and have a friend rush from 21ft (or further) and "assault" you with a big fat red "sharpie" marker while you draw an airsoft gun and try to shoot him.

It is very enlightening.

Google "Knife wounds" or go to this link and look at the pictures (WARNING - EXTREMELY GRAPHIC) while reminding yourself that a knife doesn't run out of ammo.

If someone comes after you with a knife your only friend is DISTANCE and your only chance is doing whatever it takes to stop the threat.

WC145 · February 16, 2011, 07:14 PM

What the heck is "Juji-kung-do"?

tmorone · February 16, 2011, 08:44 PM

What the heck is "Juji-kung-do"?

...delicious

WC145 · February 16, 2011, 10:10 PM

Quote:

What the heck is "Juji-kung-do"?

...delicious

Of course! Pork Juji-kung-do! What was I thinking...

Glenn Bartley · February 16, 2011, 10:30 PM

Quote:

As a disclaimer, the weapon used was cleared by everybody in the scenario each time and no safety was taken off.

That was really poor judgement on the part of the instructor. Only rubber guns or guns made inoperable (such as no firing pin or welded shut) should have been used unless of course using guns firing Simunitions.

Nnobby45 · February 16, 2011, 10:59 PM

Quote:

I've never been in this situation, but I would like to think that if a man is running at me with a knife, I'm going to shoot him in the knee and STOP the threat.

From 21 feet, the average officer on a doughnut diet can run and put a knife in the officer who has to wait until the attack begins to draw--- most every time.

The videos I've seen had the responding officer tying the knife attacker with a little practice. That's knowing to draw the instance the attacker moves.

If you didn't know what was coming, you wouldn't stand a chance---even from more than 21 feet. I saw another video where officers were taught how to side step the attack and draw their weapon. One officer who feinted left and went right, did pretty well and could have shot the attacker before he turned around and came again. Officers who put an object between them and their attacker also faired well.

Good luck on the knee shot.

Maximus856 · February 17, 2011, 09:01 AM

Quote:

That was really poor judgement on the part of the instructor. Only rubber guns or guns made inoperable (such as no firing pin or welded shut) should have been used unless of course using guns firing Simunitions.

I can't speak for all branches of service, but it is a very common military practice. Be it practicing room clearing, doing full on assaults with BFA's and blanks, or drills such as the one we're speaking of its a common occurrence. Safety is paramount as they say and the weapons are constantly checked. I'm not saying I advocate it, but it's how it goes.

Jeremiah/Az · February 17, 2011, 10:48 PM

That 21' can be covered in less than 2 seconds. How much draw & shooting can you do in that length of time if you do not know it is coming until it starts? If you recognize the attack in one second, you have one second to react.

threegun · February 18, 2011, 06:59 AM

Then try to draw in that little time with the pressure of knowing that failure will result in viciously nasty wounds that could lead to your death.

If someone is threatening you with a knife outside the distance for them to have opportunity, which is necessary to use deadly force, you had darned better expose your firearm and if possible make a timely withdrawal. If you don't and they make a determined attack, I feel strongly that it is simply not possible to reliably stop someone with a handgun in time to prevent being injured.

There are simply to many variables and service/concealed sized handguns lack the power to reliably force compliance in the time necessary to avoid injury.

bighead46 · February 18, 2011, 12:41 PM

They did a test a while back on incapacitation time. I think the 357 Magnum ranked near the top, but not the top, but even a single hit had a 3 1/2 second incapacitation time. Keep shooting until the perp is down.

Single Six · February 18, 2011, 02:04 PM

My 2 cents: Nnobby45: For what little it's worth, not all of us LE types fit the negative stereotype. After 21 years full-time on the job, I still take great pains to stay in good shape...and I never eat doughnuts while in uniform.

Next: Knives are always bad, but never overlook the humble little box cutter. That blade may only be about an inch long or so, but it is fully capable of inflicting bloody mayhem. I once responded to a "fight in progress" call. My response time was less than 3 minutes, but by the time my co-workers and I pulled up, it was over [which gives credence to the adage of the police being minutes away when seconds count]. Anyhow, the winner of the fight was long gone, and the loser of the fight was laying on the ground in a state of moaning delirium. He'd been punched, and had also suffered ONE swipe across the belly from a box cutter. His belly innards were lying in a heap next to him.

hondauto · February 18, 2011, 07:54 PM

A shot to the face/head will fix that..
Of course after the two to the chest..One more shot placed to the head won't take long..

February 16, 2011, 10:27 AM	#1
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	I'm having a senior moment,,, need a bit of help please,,,,, What is the name given to the scenario that tested the time in which a man with a knife could close the 21' towards a man with a handgun? I keep wanting to say it started with the letter T. Aarond __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

February 16, 2011, 10:53 AM	#4
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	Thanks Gentlemen,,, I knew it started with a T,,, Just faded on the complete name. Aarond __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

February 16, 2011, 12:55 PM	#5
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Senior moments are great, like blonde moments and brain farts. None of which hurt in the least bit. __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

February 16, 2011, 01:12 PM	#6
JustThisGuy Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Posts: 311	Kneecap Bullseye Good luck on that shoot em' in the kneecap idea. Try to hit a target that small movin' at speed, wiggling side by side at 15 or 20 mph. Yeah, that'll work. __________________ JustThisGuy Mediocrity dominates over excellence in all things... except excellence.

February 16, 2011, 01:30 PM	#7
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Senior moments are the best thing occasionally. Mr Tueller proposed it in his training as a guide only !! It is NOT a rule , it is NOT a law , only a guide !! He is not happy about the way it's been distorted . A BG with a knife is dangerous but within 21' even more so . __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

February 16, 2011, 10:45 AM	#2
hoytinak Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 5,721	Tueller Drill?

February 16, 2011, 10:50 AM	#3
Dr_Rich Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2011 Location: Gods waiting room. Posts: 103	My buddy was telling me about this when he was in Juji-kung-do. He was adamant that one wielding a knife could stab someone holding a gun at a range of 21'. I was going to see if I could google the name of this scenario for you and I ended up finding an article here (Linky) It said: "Upon impact of the bullets, the suspect potentially has another 14 seconds of oxygen with which to operate - enough to run another 210ft or 70yds" I've never been in this situation, but I would like to think that if a man is running at me with a knife, I'm going to shoot him in the knee and STOP the threat. ...If you've every had severe knee trauma, you know how its pretty much impossible to walk, let alone run. Oh, and btw. Its called the Tueller Drill.

February 16, 2011, 01:38 PM	#8
Maximus856 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2006 Location: PA Posts: 547	A gunny I had had us do this drill. He had someone dash towards us from roughly 5-7 yards away from a standstill and we would have to try to draw before they got to us. They attacker had a stick to simulate a knife and we had our sidearms in a standard leg holster. There was maybe one or two times where someone got the sidearm drawn fast enough to get what be considered a 'decent' shot. A belly shot from 'flicking' the pistol up immediately seemed like the only saving grace, however at that point the attacker was well within a striking/slashing range. Perhaps we need some more practice with our sidearms As a disclaimer, the weapon used was cleared by everybody in the scenario each time and no safety was taken off. __________________ "In 1968 for my senior field trip I was sent to RVN" -Hunter Customs "It is far more important to be able to hit the target than it is to haggle over who makes a weapon or who pulls a trigger." -Dwight D. Eisenhower

February 16, 2011, 02:23 PM	#10
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	Also note, the drill is based off of an attacker with knife in hand vs. a person with an open-carry duty rig.

February 16, 2011, 03:10 PM	#11
aarondhgraham Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma Posts: 8,638	It saved a friend of mine a bit of grief,, She was a brand new park ranger in Sacramento, California. Without going into detail she shot and killed a man who came at her with a BIG butcher knife,,, There was a new Assistant DA who needed to make a name for herself,,, She was determined to prosecute Kathleen for the shooting. Her Lawyer arranged for the ADA to go to the Academy,,, They ran that drill on the ADA several times,,, A prosecution did not happen. I was relating that story to a friend,,, When I blanked on the name of the drill. Aarond __________________ Never ever give an enemy the advantage of a verbal threat. Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once. Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it? Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)

February 16, 2011, 04:08 PM	#12
cambeul41 Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Location: Southeast Michigan Posts: 101	Here is Dennis Tueller on the subject: http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/T.../How.Close.htm

February 16, 2011, 05:47 PM	#13
nefprotector Junior member Join Date: December 3, 2009 Location: SE Alabama Posts: 701	"shooting one in the knee"? lol! I think that if a BG was coming at me with 21 seconds of air left & with only one well placed bullet or shot. I think that I would pump a couple more rounds into him to stop the threat.

February 16, 2011, 06:06 PM	#14
ZeSpectre Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Shenandoah Valley Posts: 3,276	Put on a plain white t-shirt and have a friend rush from 21ft (or further) and "assault" you with a big fat red "sharpie" marker while you draw an airsoft gun and try to shoot him. It is very enlightening. Google "Knife wounds" or go to this link and look at the pictures (WARNING - EXTREMELY GRAPHIC) while reminding yourself that a knife doesn't run out of ammo. If someone comes after you with a knife your only friend is DISTANCE and your only chance is doing whatever it takes to stop the threat. __________________ "The dogs may bark but the caravan moves on"

February 16, 2011, 07:14 PM	#15
WC145 Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2008 Location: Downeast Maine Posts: 1,836	What the heck is "Juji-kung-do"? __________________ "If violent crime is to be curbed, it is only the intended victim who can do it. The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge or jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - LtCol Jeff Cooper

February 16, 2011, 08:44 PM	#16
tmorone Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2010 Posts: 221	What the heck is "Juji-kung-do"? ...delicious

February 17, 2011, 10:48 PM	#21
Jeremiah/Az Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2009 Location: Az. Posts: 509	That 21' can be covered in less than 2 seconds. How much draw & shooting can you do in that length of time if you do not know it is coming until it starts? If you recognize the attack in one second, you have one second to react.

February 18, 2011, 06:59 AM	#22
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	Then try to draw in that little time with the pressure of knowing that failure will result in viciously nasty wounds that could lead to your death. If someone is threatening you with a knife outside the distance for them to have opportunity, which is necessary to use deadly force, you had darned better expose your firearm and if possible make a timely withdrawal. If you don't and they make a determined attack, I feel strongly that it is simply not possible to reliably stop someone with a handgun in time to prevent being injured. There are simply to many variables and service/concealed sized handguns lack the power to reliably force compliance in the time necessary to avoid injury. Last edited by threegun; February 18, 2011 at 07:26 AM.

February 18, 2011, 12:41 PM	#23
bighead46 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2010 Posts: 140	They did a test a while back on incapacitation time. I think the 357 Magnum ranked near the top, but not the top, but even a single hit had a 3 1/2 second incapacitation time. Keep shooting until the perp is down.

February 18, 2011, 02:04 PM	#24
Single Six Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2010 Location: N.C. Posts: 1,522	My 2 cents: Nnobby45: For what little it's worth, not all of us LE types fit the negative stereotype. After 21 years full-time on the job, I still take great pains to stay in good shape...and I never eat doughnuts while in uniform. Next: Knives are always bad, but never overlook the humble little box cutter. That blade may only be about an inch long or so, but it is fully capable of inflicting bloody mayhem. I once responded to a "fight in progress" call. My response time was less than 3 minutes, but by the time my co-workers and I pulled up, it was over [which gives credence to the adage of the police being minutes away when seconds count]. Anyhow, the winner of the fight was long gone, and the loser of the fight was laying on the ground in a state of moaning delirium. He'd been punched, and had also suffered ONE swipe across the belly from a box cutter. His belly innards were lying in a heap next to him.

February 18, 2011, 07:54 PM	#25
hondauto Member Join Date: October 26, 2010 Location: broomfield,co Posts: 82	A shot to the face/head will fix that.. Of course after the two to the chest..One more shot placed to the head won't take long..