When to shoot? - Page 2

Steviewonder1 · February 8, 2011, 03:37 PM

I have read a lot of what Marty Hayes says and I believe that he speaks the right answers to this type of question. He is well respected on alot of these boards.

markj · February 8, 2011, 04:53 PM

Quote:

I'm an NRA certified handgun instructor and I was instructed to NOT go into the legalities of when to shoot and justifications.

Class I took last month was also by a NRA certified instructor, he showed 2 or 3 short films and at the end asked what was wrong or right.

One was the drug store dude shot a guy in the head, chased the other out of the store and fired on his retreating self, then went back inside got a new gun and shot the down robber 5 times.

Not everything is cut and dried, cant tell from words on paper what is really going on in any situation.

The gun isnt the first thing to go to, if you have this in mind you will surely find yourself in a heap O trouble.

I would never ever ever shoot at someone that is retreating, or someone wants my cash. Heck I would give it to him and ask if he was hungrey lets go get a bite. Maybe all he needs is a helping hand up. Hopefully that is, if not well then take the cash and go have a good time. I can replace the cash a lot easier than I can replace me. My kids need me to pay for their stuff

like college food cloths etc.

Rambo was a movie, a bad one at that...... none of it was real.....

threegun · February 8, 2011, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Our Concealed Handgun Permit instructors must cover this in the curriculum....... probably why the NRA Basic Pistol Course does not qualify as sufficient training.....

Are the instructors in your area all judges or attorneys? Seems if I'm going to be giving out legal advice I should be trained in the field. Spent a full two days getting certified just to teach something as uncomplicated as safe gun handling and marksmanship skills. Couldn't imagine explaining law which my students will be using to base life changing decisions on.

threegun · February 8, 2011, 07:25 PM

Quote:

I would never ever ever shoot at someone that is retreating, or someone wants my cash. Heck I would give it to him and ask if he was hungrey lets go get a bite. Maybe all he needs is a helping hand up. Hopefully that is, if not well then take the cash and go have a good time. I can replace the cash a lot easier than I can replace me. My kids need me to pay for their stuff like college food cloths etc.

This begs the question......Then why do you carry?

youngunz4life · February 8, 2011, 07:39 PM

markj, shooting someone in head(circumstances weren't explained), chasing and shooting someone multiple times retreating, going back, getting another weapon or relaoading and shooting someone 5 more times is a different situation. sorry to reference you(I read only the very beginning and very end postings so far).

answering the OP's original posting:

I wouldn't draw on someone who had his weapon on me unless I was positive I could successfully or if there was literally no other choice. people discuss the wrong time to draw and shoot a lot on this forum. Usually its the perception of 'in the law's eyes" and not when a BG can control your fate.

I wouldn't hesitate to take a life and/or shoot an attacker(s) if a 'true' situation happened to me and/or my family. I am not taking any chances, and in the 'true' situation I will have to think quick and squeak thru whatever doorway of opportunity I have. but this is just me, and I usually envision the encounter in my house and on my property defending my family. There is no getting around the fact thats different than a teenager asking me for my wallet in a walmart as some random example. If it happened quick and I thought he just needed some cash I am not going to shoot him, but again I am not going to draw on a person who has drawn on me unless I am positive I can successfully. I do agree that all bets are off when a firearm is pulled on me or my family. I will stop that if possible with deadly force if it goes that way. I am not looking to do something stupid with my firearm; I believe I will know the difference but its never happened so thats neither here nor there.

**Frank Ettin** · February 8, 2011, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by threegun

I'm an NRA certified handgun instructor and I was instructed to NOT go into the legalities of when to shoot and justifications....

I'm NRA certified for Basic Handgun, Personal Protection Inside the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home.

The NRA syllabus for the Basic Handgun class calls for very little discussion of the law -- essentially just the local law related to buying, storing, owning and transporting a gun. The Personal Protection classes are intended to cover self defense law in some detail, but the NRA requires that the law portion be handled by an attorney, an LEO or a certified law enforcement instructor. Since I'm a lawyer, I will often handle the law portion for other instructors around here.

JerryM · February 8, 2011, 08:46 PM

NM requires that the course of instruction include the laws on the use of deadly force. The instructor I had explained the state law on the use of deadly force, and in addition discussed the "wisdom" of shooting under certain circumstances. The NRA safety course is not sufficient in NM.

Deadly force is to be used only if one fears death or great bodily harm. If someone demanded my wallet he could have it. It should be remembered that if you shoot someone it is just the beginning of expenses and emotional trauma.
If someone robs your home, and you see him as you arrive, consider that is why you have insurance. It will be cheaper and less stress to just let the insurance company pay the claim than to shoot and maybe be convicted of a crime because the DA does not believe that the criteria for the use of deadly force were satisfied. Same for seeing someone stealing your car.

In my view a course for CC that does not cover the law and discuss some likely circumstances is inadequate. Anyone who has taken the NM CC course should not have to ask the OP questions.

Regards,
Jerry

threegun · February 9, 2011, 07:24 AM

Quote:

In my view a course for CC that does not cover the law and discuss some likely circumstances is inadequate. Anyone who has taken the NM CC course should not have to ask the OP questions.

Simply echoing the law and sighting a few clear cut cases of shoots and no shoots does a prepared CCW holder make. There are tons of gray area situations that simply cannot be addressed in a half day course. Fear levels differ from person to person so that alone makes for a wide rangeing interpretation of fear of death or grave bodily injury.

Quote:

Deadly force is to be used only if one fears death or great bodily harm. If someone demanded my wallet he could have it. It should be remembered that if you shoot someone it is just the beginning of expenses and emotional trauma.
If someone robs your home, and you see him as you arrive, consider that is why you have insurance. It will be cheaper and less stress to just let the insurance company pay the claim than to shoot and maybe be convicted of a crime because the DA does not believe that the criteria for the use of deadly force were satisfied. Same for seeing someone stealing your car.

If you didn't give up your wallet what was the bad guy going to do? In Florida robbery equals intent to harm.

Thank goodness I don't live over there. Seems like your politicials have given the bad guys more rights than the victim.

BlueTrain · February 9, 2011, 07:50 AM

I think a person needs to have more options than shooting. But that's easy to say, hard to do for someone who is elderly or frail or relatively immobile. Something less than lethal might be handy to have, not that I own any such thing myself.

I'd also say it's pointless to bring up the subject with a lawyer because the possible situations and outcomes are endless. While they might have some worthwhile advice, which they will charge for, they usually pull out the law books after something has happened.

booker_t · February 9, 2011, 07:55 AM

Splitlear, might try using the search function for past threads as well, my lord has this topic been discussed at length.

**OldMarksman** · February 9, 2011, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Posted by threegun: Simply echoing the law and sighting a few clear cut cases of shoots and no shoots does [not] a prepared CCW holder make. There are tons of gray area situations that simply cannot be addressed in a half day course.

Very true, as originally intended.

Quote:

Fear levels differ from person to person so that alone makes for a wide rangeing interpretation of fear of death or grave bodily injury.

However, anyone who does shoot someone will be measured against the reasonable person standard, and his threshold for trepidation will not enter into the outcome.

Quote:

If you didn't give up your wallet what was the bad guy going to do?

You do not know. But if he has a gun on you and you reach for yours, you have a very good idea about what he will do.

Quote:

In Florida robbery equals intent to harm.

I would be surprised if there is anywhere in this country in which that is not true. It isn't a matter of justification. It's a matter of risk and of the balance of expenses.

markj · February 9, 2011, 05:44 PM

Quote:

This begs the question......Then why do you carry?

In case he doesnt want to be friendly. 2 sides to every coin. I like to think not all are bad, some act due to circumstances. Belive me I have been down and out, I know what it is like to have no food and hungrey mouths to feed. So if a guy wants to take something I think he must have a need and why not see if I can help out, if he isnt that way and wants to hurt me or mine, then the nice guy is done and Mr. Ugly gets let loose, no body wants to see that man, he does things that really hurt a person. And he is very large, over 6 feet and 300 lbs of farm boy. I carry a bale in each hand and can toss them as high as the barn roof. Tossed a semi wheel and tire over the sideboard of our 20 ft dump box grain truck, not to bad for an old guy. The looks on them faces

I would rather every one be friendly, but in case it dont happen, well boy scouts taught me to be prepared. But that dont mean go out and shoot everyone.

wildphilhickup · February 9, 2011, 05:48 PM

That's easy.

As soon as you feel you are are about to be threatend with bodily injury or death.

SHOOT! And don't stop until the target is down.

Your intent is NOT to kill that person. Your intent is to STOP that person.

threegun · February 9, 2011, 08:52 PM

Quote:

In case he doesnt want to be friendly. 2 sides to every coin. I like to think not all are bad, some act due to circumstances. Belive me I have been down and out, I know what it is like to have no food and hungrey mouths to feed. So if a guy wants to take something I think he must have a need and why not see if I can help out, if he isnt that way and wants to hurt me or mine, then the nice guy is done and Mr. Ugly gets let loose, no body wants to see that man, he does things that really hurt a person. And he is very large, over 6 feet and 300 lbs of farm boy. I carry a bale in each hand and can toss them as high as the barn roof. Tossed a semi wheel and tire over the sideboard of our 20 ft dump box grain truck, not to bad for an old guy. The looks on them faces

I would rather every one be friendly, but in case it dont happen, well boy scouts taught me to be prepared. But that dont mean go out and shoot everyone.

Let me know how you can tell the nice bad guys from the mean ones so I can be like you.

Rufus T Firefly · February 9, 2011, 09:28 PM

[QUOTE][/That's easy.

As soon as you feel you are are about to be threatend with bodily injury or death.

SHOOT! And don't stop until the target is down.

Your intent is NOT to kill that person. Your intent is to STOP that person. QUOTE]
I think you need a PTC course and you better have 5 good attorneys after that post. Get some training.

B.N.Real · February 9, 2011, 10:33 PM

My wallet has my license which has my address on it.

I'm not giving that to anyone.

Yes,I would draw.

No,I would not shoot unless I deemed it necessary and defendable in a court of law.

You'd be surprised how unimportant a wallet gets to a robber when a gun comes out.

I would'nt get into a dicusiion with the guy either.

He needs to leave the area immediately.

I cannot turn my back and go the other way with him as a threat in the area.

A burgular in my house who is trying to escape is a situation where legally I don't think you have any right to fire.

I can try to make him stop by telling him I've drawn on him but if he does'nt-you better check your local laws.

Now,if my wife was screaming and bloody...someone needs to stop leaving the scene of his crime.

It's not necessary to shoot someone in the head or upper body to make him stop.

You can shoot him right in the biggest target facing you as he is leaving.

His donkey.

Still,you will need to justify this in court.

This idea that as soon as you pull out your firearms you have to start firing it is simply wrong.

And shooting someone until they are lying facedown on the ground is wrong too.

That's the problem here-there are no absolutes for every situation.

Takeum · February 9, 2011, 10:59 PM

THere truely should be better schools out there to train poeple better who carry or use handguns for self defense,,,

Rufus T Firefly · February 9, 2011, 11:37 PM

Another legal problem for you. If you draw your gun. You will go to jail. Period. Your walet might be worth some bucks, but if the guy takes it and your TV.... Let him have it!!!!!
Your attorney will charge you more to get you out of jail than you lost with a confrontation over a TV or wallet.
First off, get the bad guy out of your life. Kick him in the ass to get him out of your house. OK, you have him at gun point... Now you have someone desparate and you will have to shoot him point blank and try to spain that in court.
Don't be a cowboy. Your gun is your defense with no other way out. Think first. You can't defend your family from the jail cell.

jimbob86 · February 9, 2011, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Are the instructors in your area all judges or attorneys?

The instructor I had for my Concealed Handgun Permit course was a retired attourney ...... travels around the midwest giveing handgun classes now.

His name was Paul Horvick of Shootingsafely.com, out of Minnesota. Great guy, great class ...... thought provoking stuff.

http://shootingsafely.com/

jimbob86 · February 10, 2011, 12:06 AM

Quote:

You can shoot him right in the biggest target facing you as he is leaving.

His donkey.

Shooting somebody in the behind with supersonic Jacketed Hollow Points is no less lethal in the near term than shooting them in the chest: lotsa big arteries and veins next to splinterable bone..... but you are shooing to stop them, right? Shattered pelvis or a broken proximal femur would do it ..... and they'd bleed out in 30 seconds or so.......

threegun · February 10, 2011, 07:36 AM

Quote:

This idea that as soon as you pull out your firearms you have to start firing it is simply wrong.

And shooting someone until they are lying facedown on the ground is wrong too.

There is very good rule that says if you pull your gun you better BE READY & WILLING to use it. People get confused into thinking that this means once you pull you gotta fire.

Shooting until the threat is no longer a threat doesn't mean firing until the guy is dead. It simply means to continue to fire until the reason you began firing has ceases to be. If badguy drops his gun after one shot then stop. If he continues to weild the gun despite 5 hits then he needs 6 as he is still a threat. Let the situation dictate.

threegun · February 10, 2011, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Another legal problem for you. If you draw your gun. You will go to jail. Period

I know a bunch of folks who know first hand how wrong this is.

Quote:

OK, you have him at gun point... Now you have someone desparate and you will have to shoot him point blank and try to spain that in court.
Don't be a cowboy. Your gun is your defense with no other way out. Think first. You can't defend your family from the jail cell.

Problem is I don't want my wallet or tv stolen. If the bad guy will comply and stay for LE to apprehend so be it. I have personally held people at gun point for police. It really isn't hard to do. If they run away let them go. If they attempt to harm you defend yourself. If they stay for LE, you and the community, win.

BTW It is offensive for you or anyone to assume, that someone who doesn't want to lose hard earned valuables to a ruffian, is a cowboy. Please don't mistake someone willing and able to man up and protect what is theirs with some sort of wannabe cowboy/cop/vigilante.

Heck the reason you have that soft mindset is because we have allowed the criminal to have rights at the expense of the victim. You fear punishment for simply protecting what you have given sweat equity to obtain. Its truely sad that this mindset has permeated America because your unwillingness to protect what is yours ultimately sentences a fellow American to the same or worst as the criminal you allowed to leave victimizes others.

threegun · February 10, 2011, 08:11 AM

Quote:

You can shoot him right in the biggest target facing you as he is leaving

If he's leaving why shoot? "Donkey's" AKA the pelvic girdle area is a very good place to shoot to stop a threat. As mention above.

Under very few circumstances can I ever see myself shooting someone as the fled. Just seems unjustified 99 percent of the time.

Microgunner · February 10, 2011, 10:24 AM

Shooting the BG in the back is indeed a bad idea. A man I know, Bart Lamar Powell, shot (2) assailents in the back with the 1911 .45 that he wrestled from one of the BGs who intended to use it on him. Unfortunatly, he did shoot them in the back and, definitly worse, buried them in the woods.

Bart confessed a year later, was convicted of two counts of 2nd degree murder and sentenced to two consecutive life terms.

He was out in 13 years and crazy as a bedbug.

If you're reading this Bart, I don't really think you're crazy, I'm just being dramatic.

nefprotector · February 10, 2011, 12:12 PM

May GOD help the poor soul that breaks into my house. My the Lord rest your soul.

February 8, 2011, 07:39 PM	#30
youngunz4life Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2010 Location: United States of America Posts: 1,877	markj, shooting someone in head(circumstances weren't explained), chasing and shooting someone multiple times retreating, going back, getting another weapon or relaoading and shooting someone 5 more times is a different situation. sorry to reference you(I read only the very beginning and very end postings so far). answering the OP's original posting: I wouldn't draw on someone who had his weapon on me unless I was positive I could successfully or if there was literally no other choice. people discuss the wrong time to draw and shoot a lot on this forum. Usually its the perception of 'in the law's eyes" and not when a BG can control your fate. I wouldn't hesitate to take a life and/or shoot an attacker(s) if a 'true' situation happened to me and/or my family. I am not taking any chances, and in the 'true' situation I will have to think quick and squeak thru whatever doorway of opportunity I have. but this is just me, and I usually envision the encounter in my house and on my property defending my family. There is no getting around the fact thats different than a teenager asking me for my wallet in a walmart as some random example. If it happened quick and I thought he just needed some cash I am not going to shoot him, but again I am not going to draw on a person who has drawn on me unless I am positive I can successfully. I do agree that all bets are off when a firearm is pulled on me or my family. I will stop that if possible with deadly force if it goes that way. I am not looking to do something stupid with my firearm; I believe I will know the difference but its never happened so thats neither here nor there. __________________ "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -Admiral Farragut @ Battle of Mobile Bay 05AUG1864

February 8, 2011, 08:46 PM	#32
JerryM Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 1999 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,889	NM requires that the course of instruction include the laws on the use of deadly force. The instructor I had explained the state law on the use of deadly force, and in addition discussed the "wisdom" of shooting under certain circumstances. The NRA safety course is not sufficient in NM. Deadly force is to be used only if one fears death or great bodily harm. If someone demanded my wallet he could have it. It should be remembered that if you shoot someone it is just the beginning of expenses and emotional trauma. If someone robs your home, and you see him as you arrive, consider that is why you have insurance. It will be cheaper and less stress to just let the insurance company pay the claim than to shoot and maybe be convicted of a crime because the DA does not believe that the criteria for the use of deadly force were satisfied. Same for seeing someone stealing your car. In my view a course for CC that does not cover the law and discuss some likely circumstances is inadequate. Anyone who has taken the NM CC course should not have to ask the OP questions. Regards, Jerry __________________ Ecclesiastes 12:13 ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

February 9, 2011, 07:50 AM	#34
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	I think a person needs to have more options than shooting. But that's easy to say, hard to do for someone who is elderly or frail or relatively immobile. Something less than lethal might be handy to have, not that I own any such thing myself. I'd also say it's pointless to bring up the subject with a lawyer because the possible situations and outcomes are endless. While they might have some worthwhile advice, which they will charge for, they usually pull out the law books after something has happened. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

February 9, 2011, 05:48 PM	#38
wildphilhickup Member Join Date: January 2, 2011 Posts: 37	Easy to answer That's easy. As soon as you feel you are are about to be threatend with bodily injury or death. SHOOT! And don't stop until the target is down. Your intent is NOT to kill that person. Your intent is to STOP that person.

February 9, 2011, 11:37 PM	#43
Rufus T Firefly Junior member Join Date: January 30, 2011 Location: MN Posts: 174	B.N Real - Why would you want to keep him there? Another legal problem for you. If you draw your gun. You will go to jail. Period. Your walet might be worth some bucks, but if the guy takes it and your TV.... Let him have it!!!!! Your attorney will charge you more to get you out of jail than you lost with a confrontation over a TV or wallet. First off, get the bad guy out of your life. Kick him in the ass to get him out of your house. OK, you have him at gun point... Now you have someone desparate and you will have to shoot him point blank and try to spain that in court. Don't be a cowboy. Your gun is your defense with no other way out. Think first. You can't defend your family from the jail cell.

February 8, 2011, 03:37 PM	#26
Steviewonder1 Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2009 Location: John's Creek, Georgia Posts: 328	I have read a lot of what Marty Hayes says and I believe that he speaks the right answers to this type of question. He is well respected on alot of these boards.

February 9, 2011, 07:55 AM	#35
booker_t Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2009 Posts: 797	Splitlear, might try using the search function for past threads as well, my lord has this topic been discussed at length.

February 9, 2011, 09:28 PM	#40
Rufus T Firefly Junior member Join Date: January 30, 2011 Location: MN Posts: 174	[QUOTE][/That's easy. As soon as you feel you are are about to be threatend with bodily injury or death. SHOOT! And don't stop until the target is down. Your intent is NOT to kill that person. Your intent is to STOP that person. QUOTE] I think you need a PTC course and you better have 5 good attorneys after that post. Get some training.

February 9, 2011, 10:33 PM	#41
B.N.Real Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Posts: 4,092	My wallet has my license which has my address on it. I'm not giving that to anyone. Yes,I would draw. No,I would not shoot unless I deemed it necessary and defendable in a court of law. You'd be surprised how unimportant a wallet gets to a robber when a gun comes out. I would'nt get into a dicusiion with the guy either. He needs to leave the area immediately. I cannot turn my back and go the other way with him as a threat in the area. A burgular in my house who is trying to escape is a situation where legally I don't think you have any right to fire. I can try to make him stop by telling him I've drawn on him but if he does'nt-you better check your local laws. Now,if my wife was screaming and bloody...someone needs to stop leaving the scene of his crime. It's not necessary to shoot someone in the head or upper body to make him stop. You can shoot him right in the biggest target facing you as he is leaving. His donkey. Still,you will need to justify this in court. This idea that as soon as you pull out your firearms you have to start firing it is simply wrong. And shooting someone until they are lying facedown on the ground is wrong too. That's the problem here-there are no absolutes for every situation.

February 9, 2011, 10:59 PM	#42
Takeum Member Join Date: January 7, 2011 Location: Memphis, Tn. Posts: 26	THere truely should be better schools out there to train poeple better who carry or use handguns for self defense,,,

February 10, 2011, 10:24 AM	#49
Microgunner Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Location: Central Florida Posts: 3,324	Shooting the BG in the back is indeed a bad idea. A man I know, Bart Lamar Powell, shot (2) assailents in the back with the 1911 .45 that he wrestled from one of the BGs who intended to use it on him. Unfortunatly, he did shoot them in the back and, definitly worse, buried them in the woods. Bart confessed a year later, was convicted of two counts of 2nd degree murder and sentenced to two consecutive life terms. He was out in 13 years and crazy as a bedbug. If you're reading this Bart, I don't really think you're crazy, I'm just being dramatic. __________________ *Proud NRA Benefactor Member*

February 10, 2011, 12:12 PM	#50
nefprotector Junior member Join Date: December 3, 2009 Location: SE Alabama Posts: 701	May GOD help the poor soul that breaks into my house. My the Lord rest your soul.