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Old February 3, 2011, 02:29 PM   #76
brickeyee
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The draw is just the "A" part of the OODA loop. Cutting time off there is nice; but the most time is usually wasted in the "OOD" part.
And if you already took longer than desirable in the OOD part, the shorter A may be what saves you.
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Old February 3, 2011, 03:18 PM   #77
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Can't see any argument against the value of a faster draw...

... so long as practice is conducted safely.

However, finding places where one can practice can be problematic.

Lucky for me, I have a large backyard, bordered by rising terrain into woods. IE, my backyard is my shooting range.

One thing I figured out quickly is that thumb straps slow me down, and cause occasional fumbling. I suppose I could have just trained more on the strap, but found it more efficient to get holsters that rise higher around the gun, and hold retention via friction. Sam Andrews for my autos, SimplyRugged or Galco for my revolvers. These hold the weapons reliably, but do not require extra steps while under stress or time limits.
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Old February 3, 2011, 03:43 PM   #78
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JMHO

JUst a thought. Go to an IPSC,or USPSA match in your area, find out which guys are Masters or Grand Masters, watch them shoot, and then figure out how much draw speed is worth.
It ain't that hard to get a fast draw, if you practice, not fast like a GM, but fast enough to make the difference, maybe.I'll take the maybe. You guys do practice, right?,FAST IS NOT FAST, SMOOTH IS FAST. IT CAN ONLY COME WITH PRACTICE
We had a stage that we called "One Shot". Standard IPSC Target at 21'. Hands in the "Surrender" position,(Hands Up, above the shoulders), beeper goes off and you draw and put one round downrange, My best was .7 seconds with an "A" hit, Paul Mason, a Grand Master, did it in .2, also with an "A" hit. For me, I was proud of my time, and it gave me some confidence, but I would rather be able to do it in .2, if you get my drift.How do you get to Carnagie Hall?? PRACTICE, PRACTICE,PRACTICE
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Old February 3, 2011, 04:06 PM   #79
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My OOD is bigger than your's.... oh wait, that's not a good thing.
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Old February 3, 2011, 05:54 PM   #80
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I don't know if it is a myth; but in the force-on-force training I've done, it hasn't proved that useful. I had to draw while having a gun pointed at me already in several FOF scenarios. In pretty much anyone of those scenarios, if I just stood there and drew, even if I drew with Jerry Miculek like speed, I would have gotten shot.
In FoF your opponent is expecting you to draw, where in the real world the bad guy might not be expecting any resistance from you.
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Old February 3, 2011, 08:24 PM   #81
Bartholomew Roberts
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Originally Posted by brickeyee
And if you already took longer than desirable in the OOD part, the shorter A may be what saves you.
I am sure that has been the case and will be again. Having said that, even a mediocre draw, say 2.5 seconds, doesn't leave you a lot of time to cut. If you observe and recognize a threat 1.25 seconds earlier, you've gained the same advantage as if you had cut your draw time in half via practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATW525
In FoF your opponent is expecting you to draw, where in the real world the bad guy might not be expecting any resistance from you
It seems to me that if it works against an opponent who is expecting you to be armed, it should also work fine against one who doesn't expect it - with the added bonus that if your attacker happens to be competent, you may be less likely to get ventilated.
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Old February 3, 2011, 08:49 PM   #82
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You'd damned well better practice your draw! I carry because you just never know. Happened twice. First time ran face-to-face into one of my biggest fans. Knew he was carrying as his CHL hadn't yet been revoked. Figured I could beat him if necessary. Wasn't necessary.

Second time don't even remember drawing.

Stay safe.
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Old February 3, 2011, 09:08 PM   #83
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Having said that, even a mediocre draw, say 2.5 seconds, doesn't leave you a lot of time to cut.
Quarter second split times aren't terribly difficult with many semi-autos. If somebody is shooting at you, cutting that 2.5 seconds in half through training could mean five less chances the guy gets to kill you.
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Old February 4, 2011, 07:36 AM   #84
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Yes; I wasn't suggesting not training. I was just questioning whether training on a fast draw was the best use of training time. We both agree that cutting 1.25 seconds from your OODA loop is a benefit. Is it easier to get that all out of the draw time or can you gain efficiency at other points in that cycle?

It seems to me that a good draw is probably easier to train since you can work on it at home, dry-fire. However, in terms of just time invested, I bet good FoF training would improve your overall training more efficiently (but is much more difficult to do resource wise)
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Old February 4, 2011, 07:52 AM   #85
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It takes me .5 to .6 seconds to draw and get off a shot, in response to a timer signal. If I initiate the draw by my own decision that time is cut in half.

Two seconds in the context of a deadly confrontation could literally be an eternity. If one has never seen in person, someone draw and fire 8-9 rounds from a semi-auto pistol in 2 seconds or less, they need to. Then a 2.5 second draw time would be put in its proper perspective. Which is slow, slow, slow.
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Old February 4, 2011, 01:09 PM   #86
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I don't think anyone was arguing 2.5 seconds was a good time. I was just pointing out that even if you went from mediocre to phenomenon, the most time you could possibly cut is 2 seconds or so.

Which is a lot of time when people are shooting at you to be sure; but I bet most people waste way more than 2 seconds in the OOD portion and can improve time there with less training than it would take to change that 2.5 second draw into a half second draw from concealment in every day carry gear - since that is what we are talking about here and duplicating your best time with your IPSC rig is probably not going to happen.
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Old February 4, 2011, 04:53 PM   #87
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I don't know if it is a myth; but in the force-on-force training I've done, it hasn't proved that useful. I had to draw while having a gun pointed at me already in several FOF scenarios. In pretty much anyone of those scenarios, if I just stood there and drew, even if I drew with Jerry Miculek like speed, I would have gotten shot.
In FOF being behind in the reactionary curve almost insures a nasty welt. In the real deal it almost insures getting shot. While FOF is IMO as close as possible to real world pressure it simply falls short of real duress.

The reason speed is extremely important goes beyond lead to meat time. From the time your opponent sees you going for a firearm he is under duress. As you raise your firearm so is his stress level raised.

Most folks I know perform worst under competitive pressure than they do without it. The folks with FOF training I know perform worst while under the point of a gun or when facing an opponent with a known speed advantage.

What is never measured is how speed saves lives by putting your adversary under the threat of death faster. The pressure associated almost certainly erodes shooting skill. The faster the pressure the more benefit enjoyed.
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Old February 4, 2011, 04:59 PM   #88
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I never said speed wasn't important, just this idea that we all must try to reach microsecond draw speeds is rediculous. A draw that is smooth, efficient and gets you on point is what is critical. People tend to concentrate on speed over proper form and smoothness. I also contend that what you have on during practice will always be different to what you wear everyday.
Well, you've clarified some things that weren't clear in your thread starter. I think that's why you've gotten some of the replies that are giving you heartburn.

"Smooth, efficient, and gets you on point" comes with practicing the draw which translates to a faster draw.

No, we aren't talking about facing off at ten paces ala Hollywood movies, but accessing the firearm quickly as a response to a quick attack. The draw may not even be possible until you've gotten Bubba out of your face with unarmed skills.

Quick action during an attack means a number of things from fast lateral movement, jumping behind cover, drawing your gun, etc., etc.

I don't have bunch of data, you can Google around on your own, but I believe that quick access to a the firearm, which would include drawing from concealment, as saved lots of lives--often when the victim surprises the assailant. And often, firing the weapon isn't necessary.

Last edited by Nnobby45; February 4, 2011 at 05:07 PM.
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Old February 5, 2011, 11:31 AM   #89
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There are some fast people in this thread, that's for sure. But I agree with MLeake entirely; those have been my concerns as well (thumbsnaps), as well as other problems with executing a smooth draw, mostly all connected with concealment. Smooth isn't all that difficult but really being fast (thought I have no timer) without fumbling is something else if you are attempting a fast draw from beneath concealment.

I'd suggest a reading of Ed McGivern's book on revolver shooting, which you all probably have anyway. Unfortunately, it really is mostly about revolvers and I suspect that most of the respondents in this thread are more interested in automatics at the moment. If there's anything he doesn't talk about in connection to fast draw, I don't know what it is. He also devotes some space to timers.
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Old February 5, 2011, 02:17 PM   #90
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[QUOTE][/QUOTEThere are some fast people in this thread, that's for sure]

I would have no qualms about walking down the middle of main street past the corral in Tombstone at high-noon with these guys. (we'll invite Wyatt along for backup, just in case.)
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Old February 5, 2011, 02:20 PM   #91
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Wyatt wasn't known for a fast draw...

... at least, not from the books I've read.

He was known for staring people down from time to time.

At the OK Corral, from what I read, he actually took time for aimed shots, and hit his targets. Opponents shot quickly, and missed (put holes through his jacket, though).

Caveat: all things being equal, I'd rather have a faster draw, but Wyatt is a better example for making shots count.
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Old February 5, 2011, 02:36 PM   #92
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It's a common misconception that fast can only come at the expense of accuracy. Certainly you're not going to shoot lovely 1-hole groups at 25 yards while rocking 0.20 split times, but at the same time it is quite possible with practice to draw from a concealed IWB holster and get hits on an 8 inch circle at 7 yards in less than 1.4 seconds.

The key to real speed on the draw isn't to throw the gun out there as fast as you can and then wail on the trigger, but rather to use a technique called a "press-out".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pistol-Training.Com
The faster the sights are level in front of the eyes, the faster you will be able to make an aimed hit. So, if the need for a visual index exists, I want to draw my gun straight up to my eye-line with my muzzle a little high (pretty much inside the workspace).

From there, the sights are aligned, the gun is pushed to full extension, and the trigger is pressed, simultaneously. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, the key is knowing which two points to connect. It doesn’t do much good to throw the gun from holster to full extension if you don’t have the visual reference you need and are waiting on that reference to begin trigger press.
Watch this video. That's about a 1/4th speed press out, but it illustrates the concept aptly that the gun moves towards the target as the trigger is being prepped. Once the arms reach their natural extension point, the shot breaks. This works regardless of whether you're running a 1911 with a 4 lb trigger or a DA revolver with a 12 lb trigger.
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Old February 5, 2011, 04:53 PM   #93
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At one time there must have been no other gunfight more famous in history than the shootout at the OK Corral. Both Applegate and McGivern mentioned it and considered it important. Earp was a younger man at the time it happened and he lived until 1929. That probably helped to keep the memory alive. It was fast and accurate shooting that won that day but I doubt if fast draw entered into the matter.
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Old February 5, 2011, 06:36 PM   #94
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I think it seems "draw speed" and "quick draw" are getting a little confused here. I would define draw speed as the time it takes to get the weapon presented and ready to accurately place a round on target from the holstered position. The term “quick draw” I would limit to movies and games and think it should be extremely limited in its use as a contribution to a legitimate discussion.

I know the OP came back and clarified his original position but there seems to be other users that think a slow steady draw is the only way to go. In other threads here I’ve read a lot of people talk about a tool box and think draw speed is just another tool in the box. When you assess the situation you have to determine what tool(s) in the box best fit the situation.

Is my attacker distracted by something else? At that time I would have to determine whether a faster draw is worth the risk that he might notice. It might be better to not risk rapid movement and draw the weapon slowly. But I don’t think for a minute that a person has one single draw speed (at least not a person who moderately practices drawing from the holster).

On the other hand if someone is shooting/ attacking/ etc. and cover is not immediately available you better believe I’m going to draw as efficiently and mechanically sound (as fast) as I know I am capable of and shoot or shoot while moving to cover.
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Old February 5, 2011, 06:49 PM   #95
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At the OK Corral, from what I read, he actually took time for aimed shots, and hit his targets. Opponents shot quickly, and missed (put holes through his jacket, though).

Caveat: all things being equal, I'd rather have a faster draw, but Wyatt is a better example for making shots count.
Hickock, maybe the best of them all, also "took time to aim". I wouldn't refer to either Hickock or Earp as slow anymore than a modern day shooter trained in the art of using sights.

John Wesley H. wasn't too bad, himself. Another one of those fellows who AIMED and sprung into action fast as a cat.

Earp was never scratched by a bullet. Don't recall if Hickcock or Hardin were ever wounded in a shooting. And I'm not referring to Wild Bill's murder while sitting at a card table.

Certain gun fighters get a lot of attention, but I'll bet there were a lot of 'em, back then, who were rather formidable and highly competent with a six shooter.
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Old February 5, 2011, 07:25 PM   #96
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I've often thought of this situation, but it wasn't something I thought of in-depth until a few days ago. I found out a good friend who has already been through a very tragic situation was walking with his girlfriend and teenage brother to a gas station during the snow storm about a week ago. It's in a VERY small city with some crime but mostly between drug dealers and wannabe gangs. Anyway, on the way there two guys jumped out with guns and robbed them. They hit my friend on the head with a gun and held the girlfriend with a gun to her head while they made their demands. They ended up getting away with the brothers back pack and their wallets, however no shots fired and my buddy just got a bump on his head.

Out of our friends, I am the only one who CCs and has some sort of training.I really wonder what the outcome would of been had I been there as a stroll to the store is not uncommon for us to do. Would I of made the decision to draw and fire, and would it of been fast and accurate enough to dispatch the BGs? In that situation it would of been all about the speed and accuracy both of the OODA loop and the action itself. As it stands, there was 1 of 2 outcomes. It could of gone just as it had or it could of been a murder scene. In my opinion had I been there, up until the event was over I would of been thinking without action it would be the latter of the two. Still, with a gun to someones head and me not being part of the situation I do not know how I would of reacted or the outcome of my reaction. I could only hope the speed and accuracy would of been on my side.

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Old February 5, 2011, 07:49 PM   #97
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When it comes down to it, it's really not a question of quick draw or fast draw. It's a question of how long it can take us to perceive the threat, determine the need to fire, deploy our gun and engage the threat with accurate fire, having made the decision that shooting is warranted.

So how much time will we have in which to do all of that? I have no idea and neither do you. It's going to all depend on what happens and how it happens. We might have lots of time, or we might have very little. We simply can't know in advance.

If we can't get done what we need to do in the time circumstances allow us, we will not be happy with the outcome. Good training and diligent practice can help reduce the time we need to be able to effectively do what we need to be able to do.
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Old February 6, 2011, 08:07 AM   #98
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I hate to sound dumb or uninformed, but what is the OODA loop?

Now, in regard to fiddletown's remarks, I agree completely. When one is in a situation, the bad guy has already made his decision and has committed himself to a course of action, for better or for worse. We, or the good guys, may not even be the primary target of the bad guy's action, if there are several people around. We have to make assumptions and quickly.

Not only do you have to decide what to do, if anything, you have to do this while you have all these conflicts going through your head about the consequences of your actions. When you have zero experience with these things, as most of us do, you really just don't know what to do. You can talk all you want about situational awareness and that's important but that's just the beginning. But even Elmer Keith was never in a gunfight and even went so far as to wonder why.
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Old February 6, 2011, 08:57 AM   #99
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Being able to draw your weapon smoothly, safely, and quickly is important BUT I believe you are much likely to hesitate drawing, that to be too slow drawing.
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Old February 6, 2011, 10:23 AM   #100
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I hate to sound dumb or uninformed, but what is the OODA loop?
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