The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 10, 2018, 02:04 PM   #1
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 19,591
Texas Monthly and Sutherland Springs

https://www.texasmonthly.com/article...s-mass-murder/

A surprisingly positive article on the gentleman who stopped the church shooter. Well worth the read.

I was surprise because that magazine is usually virulently against firearms and one of the editorial staff has written very nasty antigun op-eds for the NY Times. IIRC, they mocked the hero and the guy who drove him after the killer.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old November 10, 2018, 02:31 PM   #2
DaleA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2002
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 4,155
Quote:
they mocked the hero and the guy who drove him after the killer.
If it's the one I remember they derisively referred to him as "The Marlboro Man."

Pretty mean spirited.
DaleA is offline  
Old November 10, 2018, 02:36 PM   #3
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 19,591
Yeah, that's it. I would never buy an issue after that. I saw the story on another site and that's where I got the URL.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old November 10, 2018, 04:59 PM   #4
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 11,173
Whoa!

Quote:
Most mass shootings barely even register with the American public anymore. In 2017 alone, there were more than three hundred shooting incidents in which at least four people were injured or killed, and few of them made national headlines. Sutherland Springs was different, though.
My record for 2017 shows 19 incidents, and three of those were listed because they were "school" shootings; they each had fewer than 4 people killed or injured. 300? I want to know what and where they were. I call BS.


Quote:
“Remember,” Pomeroy said, “man can’t always comprehend God’s plans.”

“I know,” Willeford said. “But if God would just tell me what to do, I’d run at it like a bulldog.”
When I pray, I often tell God, "May my will be thy Will ... but could I please read the script?"

In Mr. Willeford's case, it would appear that God spent a lifetime preparing Mr. Willeford so that, when the time came, he know what to do and how to do it without having to be "told."

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; November 10, 2018 at 05:12 PM.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old November 10, 2018, 05:47 PM   #5
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 19,591
They call any greater than or equal to 4 a mass shooting. These include usually gang related or family uproar. It is debated if these are mass shooting in the vein of some sort of rampage with a noticeable gang or family motive and that extends to innocents not directly involved in a motive besides killing.

It's a fuzzy boundary in some cases. Shoot the girl friend and then the rest of the place vs. just shoot up a place with a very close connection.

Choose your definition to suit your PR purpose. Obviously, killing anybody is a bad thing.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old November 10, 2018, 10:25 PM   #6
Rachen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 10, 2006
Location: Weekend cowboy
Posts: 407
Quote:
In Mr. Willeford's case, it would appear that God spent a lifetime preparing Mr. Willeford so that, when the time came, he know what to do and how to do it without having to be "told."
AMEN. Indeed, this particular case has affected me greatly because as opposed to other such horrific incidents, the Sutherland Springs shooting showed how a ray of light, benevolence and selfless heroism managed to pierce even the most darkest of evil and vanquish it. It was about a week after the shooting that I had written a letter of praise for Willeford and Langendorff and published it here on this very site and it is my sincere hope that many readers both residents and passerby have been inspired by it and shared it with others.

After all, in history, falling to your knees and begging for your life has had a very poor track record of success when dealing with terrorists, tyrants and other scum who employ murder as a means of control or entertainment. You fight and you fight to the death if need be. No such thing as "honor" or "civility" needed when fighting these monsters either. Ambushes, dirty tactics, shooting from the back, doesn't matter when you are fighting to survive. You may win or you may not win, and in the case I don't win, I will try my hardest to take as many of the lowlifes with me into eternal darkness as I can so that more innocents may live to see another day. And that is what separates a person of true goodness from the everyday average citizen. Throughout the ages they have had many names...Wandering swordsmen, knights, cowboys. No matter what name you pick, these are people who are forged from the same material. Stephen Willeford is one such person. So is Johnnie Langendorff. And when it comes time again to choose between cowering or standing up and being counted, I swear to God that I would do the same as these selfless heroes and not ask for any kind of reward in return, and I hope that many, many more out there will do the same. It is difficult to read this thread, relive the events of that horrific day, and write this post without my eyes becoming filled and brimming with wetness. But if more, and even more of us decide to pray to God not for safety and comfort, but courage and will to fight against evil and so bring safety and comfort to our loved ones and our fellow neighbors, perhaps in the future less tears would have to be shed.

"Negotiations are useless against bandits. Violence is the only language that barbarians understand. And it is that which we give them today"...These are words said by Chinese general Huo Qiubin in 110 B.C. before he led the army of the Han Dynasty into battle against the Huns who had ravaged China's northern border country. A battle that would shatter the mighty Hun confederation into hundreds of pieces and secure China's border firmly for the next 600 years.
__________________
http://blueskycountry.tumblr.com
BORDERLANDS: THE GRAPHIC NOVEL
Climb onto the saddle and ride with me through the last remaining Wild West frontier in the world. Where a man is judged solely by his actions, and every action carries grave consequences.
Rachen is offline  
Old November 11, 2018, 11:53 AM   #7
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 18,630
Quote:
incidents in which at least four people were injured or killed,
"Injured" is your open door. One person shot AT, and four people with bruises, cuts and sprains from running into stuff, or each other as they ran away, can go on their list as a mass shooting within their definition.

Once upon a time, in a land that now seems far, far away, there had to be 4 or more people KILLED, in the same place, at the same time, to be classified as mass murder. Gun, machete, chainsaw or poison, didn't matter. Kill more but spread out the location or the time and it wasn't mass murder, it was "serial killing".

Then the press started calling mass murder "mass shootings" which they were, when a gun was used. Then they decided to re-write the definition from killed to shot, which allows counting those who are only wounded as well as those killed, which meant a higher "body count" and therefore, many more shootings fell under their new definition.

NOW, the definition is changed again, and counts any and everyone INJURED
(in any way) at the scene of the shooting. People have a strong aversion to being shot and killed, or even just being shot. They willingly injure themselves to get away. I would. You would, its natural. BUT if you can count every scraped knee, cut, or sprain injury ( and of course worse ones) to make a mass shooting, then the number of mass shootings is going to jump tremendously. And, Of course, EVERY mass shooting is equal in their statistics.

To me, it doesn't seem right that a scene such as I gave, with no one actually shot, but 4+ people injured is treated the same as one where 20+ people were killed, and many, many more injured.

It just a numbers game for them, lower the definition until you can "validly" count enough incidents as mass shootings to force the govt to "do something" (meaning pass the laws they say will fix it).

It wouldn't surprise me a bit that, if changing the definition to include all injuries to make it a mass shooting doesn't generate the numbers needed for their agenda to pass, I would expect the next lower definition to be used. What's the next lower definition? Not sure what they will pick, but its not impossible they will decide that a shooting where 4 or more people ARE GATHERED constitutes a mass shooting (no matter what else is involved) and report it as such.

Some of the people in the anti gun movement are true believers, fanatics, jihadists, in their own way, believing nothing they do or say is wrong, because they are doing what they see as "God's work" (and usually without mentioning GOD in any way, shape or form). The rest are mostly what Lenin described as "useful idiots".

They ridicule or demonize, depending on what they think will have the most traction, anyone who defends themselves, or especially others. Many of them feel (and aren't shy about saying so) that anyone who voluntarily puts themselves in harm's way for the good of others is a fool. They feel those who serve in the military (and sometimes even the police) are fools, idiots, and other less complementary terms. They are of lesser intelligence, and lesser value because they do "stupid" things, such as risking life and limb to protect people they don't even know...etc.

Words like duty, honor, country have little or no meaning to them, or at least little or no resemblance to the meaning they have for me and many people I know.


Some of us aren't/weren't "smart" enough to stay home, sit on our behinds, do nothing but make money and whine about the social issue de jour and how the world is such an unfair place.

Thank God for that!
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old November 11, 2018, 12:13 PM   #8
TXAZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Location: McMurdo Sound Texas
Posts: 3,373
Saw that Glenn.
If you want to see the other side's real reaction wait, read and let's revisit the "Letters to the Editor" section in about 2 or 3 issues, when all of the ??????? will come out of the woodwork and express their inner feelings.

$10 says my frequently posting sister's will be one of the most rabid anti- rants you've ever seen
__________________
!أنا لست إرهابياً
TXAZ is offline  
Old November 11, 2018, 01:03 PM   #9
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 11,173
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
It wouldn't surprise me a bit that, if changing the definition to include all injuries to make it a mass shooting doesn't generate the numbers needed for their agenda to pass, I would expect the next lower definition to be used. What's the next lower definition? Not sure what they will pick, but its not impossible they will decide that a shooting where 4 or more people ARE GATHERED constitutes a mass shooting (no matter what else is involved) and report it as such.
Possibly the number of people who could maybe, possibly have been shot at, as you propose. Or maybe just the number of rounds fired.

Definitely some moving of goalposts here but, even with that, it's awfully difficult for me to even begin to comprehend how the number of qualifying shootings on my list for 2017 (which includes some with fewer than 4 people killed and/or injured, because my list started with recording school shootings, regardless of number of casualties) increases to over 300 on their list.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; November 12, 2018 at 07:10 PM. Reason: Typos - multiple
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old November 12, 2018, 01:26 PM   #10
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 18,630
Quote:
In 2017 alone, there were more than three hundred shooting incidents in which at least four people were injured or killed,
When someone makes a claim like this, when is it correct to challenge them? (or course they will never think its correct to challenge them)

What I mean is, why not just clearly state "I don't believe you, show me your list, and your parameters for being on your list!"

In other words, challenge them to prove it.

Refuse to discuss their other points until they produce proof of their claim.

Demand names, if they just say "studies show", WHAT studies, who's studies..etc.

If they demur, say they don't have that information available right now, then what? If they actually say the words "I don't know", you've got them. Quoting information as fact without a verifiable source? Did you think it was true because you read it on the Internet? See what kind of interesting colors they turn when you tell them that...its kind of fun...

If they beg off, say they have the sources, but not available right now, tell them fine, come back when you have proof you aren't lying, and we'll discuss things.

If they do cite a study(s) thank them. And then say "we can continue after I've had time to examine the data".

Data yields statistics, which are facts. Conclusions drawn from those statistics are opinions. Don't ever lose sight of that important point.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old November 12, 2018, 07:14 PM   #11
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 11,173
Here's a source that says there were 346 mass shootings in 2017, and they attribute the statistic to the Gun Violence Archive (not an unbiased source).

Article: https://www.abc15.com/news/data/mass...curred-in-2017

Gun Violence Archive: http://www.shootingtracker.com/

I'll review the GVA list and perhaps comment after I have digested it.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old November 12, 2018, 07:19 PM   #12
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 11,173
Okay. The Gun Violence Archive list includes incidents such as domestic violence, bar fights, drive-by shootings, and gang warfare incidents. In other words, incidents other than those in which a shooter attacked random people for the purpose of killing as many people as possible. They include at least one incident with four victims -- and four shooters (not my idea of a classic mass shooting ... more like gang warfare).

Technically, the incidents on their list do seem to meet the general criterion of 4 or more casualties at one address in one incident, but they do NOT fall into the category of incidents most people worry about when going out for an evening on the town.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old November 12, 2018, 10:24 PM   #13
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 11,890
Glenn, good article. I also liked his initial interview right after the shooting.

They do technically meet the criteria, at least most do. You can do like I did back in 2016 and go through the entire list incident by incident and you will find a few that are questionable or wrong, but it is a small percentage. The most common problem I had was with not all those being injured actually having been shot. Whether or not those criteria fall into the category of what people worry about really isn't all that relevant. People worry about a lot of stupid stuff that just isn't likely to ever happen to them.

I see it with a goodly frequency where people on gun forums post of their fears of going to malls, fears of being involved in a mass shooting at a mall. Never mind that in reality, if they were going to be worried about being shot by somebody, they should be taking a very good look at their family, friends, acquaintances, coworkers, etc. In cases where the victim's killer is known, the killer is commonly known by the victim. But do many of us worry at night about being killed by the people known to us? Not usually, but that seems to truly be where the real threat is.

http://www.zocalopublicsquare.org/20...w/ideas/nexus/
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...nship_2015.xls

Apparently, if you aren't worried about drive-by shootings, you can be thankful for where you live and/or work, but drive-by shootings are a reality for a lot of people in the US.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.06828 seconds with 9 queries