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Old April 7, 2020, 08:43 AM   #26
wild cat mccane
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Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I do still disagree though.

Also look at the luckygunner HST 147gr +P. Amazing. The 9mm HST outperforms many of the 10mm commercial loads for expansion AND penetration. Actually, all of them but two.

Underwood/BB load Speer uni-core bonded bullet, not current Gold Dot or Gold Dot G2. HST outperforms current Gold Dot loads from Vista for expansion and penetration. HST changed the game when it came out. Bigger expansion, deeper, less FPS.

You have to say that energy changed the outcome of being hit. An HST 9mm is going to kill in the right place. Period. The additional FPS of a 10mm isn't going to change anything. Ballistically, the 9mm HST got the bullet there bigger and deeper.

So yeah, the extra lbs umph does nothing for the 10mm performing better.

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Old April 7, 2020, 10:35 AM   #27
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I was considering the .45 ACP in a 1911 but I want something that’s going to hold more than 8+1 rounds.
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Old April 7, 2020, 10:45 AM   #28
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10mm

10mm is closer to a .41mag than a .357mag.

Recoil and second shot must be considered. Double tapping a 10mm is difficult to control.

Perhaps a S&W 40 and/or a .41 Special would suit you better.
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Old April 7, 2020, 11:40 AM   #29
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Kibitzing- seems to me “double taps” were invented because 9mm is “not enough”. I don’t hear about double taps with .45acp, 10mm etc. as thems with great recoil are also thems that lay down a big hole on the first place.

So the conventional wisdom now seems to be that one needs 12+ rounds of 9mm and that’s the herd’s wisdom. 38 special is “too weak” and 5 or 6 rounds is a major disadvantage and reloading is deemed impossible (although I’ve never had a revolver fail to feed, stovepipe or malfunction in any way so we don’t blame the shooter for limp wristing.)

I will get berated on these boards because my .380 is basically a pea shooter even though the bullet diameter is within a thousandth or two of an inch from 9mm and the only acceptable reason to carry a .22 is because one must be old and feeble. Carrying a .25 or .32... shhhhh... those guys.. we don’t talk about thems in front of the children.

We won’t mention that if you can shoot it, .40 really is better than 9mm because... we don’t like the CRACK!! and SNAP! Of a .40. The kids all think the BOOM and PUSH from a 1911 is just for Grandpa until they shoot a few targets, feel the glass break of the trigger, then mutter that it only has 7 rounds and complain about the cost of ammunition so they feel better. Gramps says “Lazy kids! When the Paco-lips comes, you’ll wish you knew how to reload! And get off my lawn!”

Guys with 10mm will argue for days about the best bullet for unsociable bears.
Guys with .454 Casull argue about the best bullet for Cape Buffalo.
Guys with S&W500 argue about when will they get their gun back from the factory and those with a .500 Linebaugh don’t need to talk, their grip panels cost more than my truck.

If you had your choice, you’d probably pick Seal Team Seven for home defense, lacking that you’d pick a long gun.

Everything is a compromise and everything hinges on your ability and needs.

10mm? I know some big men with good skill that can make 10mm hum like a sewing machine mated with Thor’s hammer. You would not want to go one-on-one with such a man with a 9mm.

We haven’t even talked about things like “Shoot through a car door? Heck, even my .45 Colt with hard cast makes a car door look like Swiss cheese”

Everything is a compromise. Let’s face it, my sister was a LEO for 5 years and never drew her weapon. Chances are you’ll never fire yours. In the great outdoors, 10mm is a respectable handgun for deer hunting and anything less I look on as someone in great need or someone that disrespects the animal.

After this long, hopefully amusing rant, you might say “Well Pete, what did you just buy? You’ve been looking for a 9mm” and then I say “Well..... errr.... I was looking and then this fella had a Ruger Single Six in .32 H&R magnum... and ...I had to have it. Buy ammunition? Haha haha! Funny! You can’t even get all the components for reloading in one place online!”

We don’t talk about .357 Magnum and .32 Fed Mag because they are revolver cartridges but are good enough to hunt deer with when we say “there is no replacement for proper shot placement”.

Since I got that Ruger in an even trade, I still have discretionary money for a 9mm some day... but a proper wood and steel revolver beat it out for my “gotta have its”.
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Old April 7, 2020, 12:12 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by TruthTellers View Post
Name a non-rimfire handgun ammo that's as cheap as 9mm. It's obvious that we'll be paying more for 10mm ammo than 9mm, but that's the case with quite literally every pistol ammo; it is what it is.

Honestly, the prices on 10mm, even if it's weaker, dowloaded stuff that's nowhere near max power is not much more than .40 or .45 is. The key is stay away from American made 10mm ammo, Federal especially. They charge $7 more a box and give us 125 fps less!

The Glock 20 and 29 won't be terribly difficult to conceal and whatever extra challenges there are in that regards, it's a worthy trade off for the increased power and better capacity than .45 ACP. OP could have a mag or two of standard JHP ammo for biped threats and a spare mag with max power 200 grain stuff for the big animals in the woods.

10mm is a very versatile caliber, I wish I had the foresight 5+ years ago to go with it over .40 S&W, but I didn't know back then I would get into reloading.

Oh, btw, .40 S&W shoots just fine in 10mm Glocks with no modifications.
Oh yeah, my bad! I failed to acknowledge Glock’s as the solution for everything!
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Old April 7, 2020, 12:43 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by wild cat mccane View Post
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I do still disagree though.

Also look at the luckygunner HST 147gr +P. Amazing. The 9mm HST outperforms many of the 10mm commercial loads for expansion AND penetration. Actually, all of them but two.

Underwood/BB load Speer uni-core bonded bullet, not current Gold Dot or Gold Dot G2. HST outperforms current Gold Dot loads from Vista for expansion and penetration. HST changed the game when it came out. Bigger expansion, deeper, less FPS.

You have to say that energy changed the outcome of being hit. An HST 9mm is going to kill in the right place. Period. The additional FPS of a 10mm isn't going to change anything. Ballistically, the 9mm HST got the bullet there bigger and deeper.

So yeah, the extra lbs umph does nothing for the 10mm performing better.
Um, the 124gr +P HST outperformed the the 147gr +P HST. It achieved the same penetration depths and expansion diameter, but with a higher energy.

Any bullet will kill if put in the right place, but the point of self defense isn't killing, it's stopping. 10mm is a stopping round due to the higher velocity and energy.

Look, I get your a mega fanboy of the HST, but saying it's superior to 10mm because it penetrates deeper with less is beyond the pale. It takes more than a technologically advanced bullet design to make it a better ammo than 10mm and I'll give the HST and other bullet designs their due in that they've made 9mm a respectable defense caliber, but they don't make it better than 10mm in terms of defense capability.
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Old April 7, 2020, 12:55 PM   #32
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10mm for self defense

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Originally Posted by stinkeypete View Post
Kibitzing- seems to me “double taps” were invented because 9mm is “not enough”. I don’t hear about double taps with .45acp, 10mm etc. as thems with great recoil are also thems that lay down a big hole on the first place.

So the conventional wisdom now seems to be that one needs 12+ rounds of 9mm and that’s the herd’s wisdom. 38 special is “too weak” and 5 or 6 rounds is a major disadvantage and reloading is deemed impossible (although I’ve never had a revolver fail to feed, stovepipe or malfunction in any way so we don’t blame the shooter for limp wristing.)

I will get berated on these boards because my .380 is basically a pea shooter even though the bullet diameter is within a thousandth or two of an inch from 9mm and the only acceptable reason to carry a .22 is because one must be old and feeble. Carrying a .25 or .32... shhhhh... those guys.. we don’t talk about thems in front of the children.

We won’t mention that if you can shoot it, .40 really is better than 9mm because... we don’t like the CRACK!! and SNAP! Of a .40. The kids all think the BOOM and PUSH from a 1911 is just for Grandpa until they shoot a few targets, feel the glass break of the trigger, then mutter that it only has 7 rounds and complain about the cost of ammunition so they feel better. Gramps says “Lazy kids! When the Paco-lips comes, you’ll wish you knew how to reload! And get off my lawn!”

Guys with 10mm will argue for days about the best bullet for unsociable bears.
Guys with .454 Casull argue about the best bullet for Cape Buffalo.
Guys with S&W500 argue about when will they get their gun back from the factory and those with a .500 Linebaugh don’t need to talk, their grip panels cost more than my truck.

If you had your choice, you’d probably pick Seal Team Seven for home defense, lacking that you’d pick a long gun.

Everything is a compromise and everything hinges on your ability and needs.

10mm? I know some big men with good skill that can make 10mm hum like a sewing machine mated with Thor’s hammer. You would not want to go one-on-one with such a man with a 9mm.

We haven’t even talked about things like “Shoot through a car door? Heck, even my .45 Colt with hard cast makes a car door look like Swiss cheese”

Everything is a compromise. Let’s face it, my sister was a LEO for 5 years and never drew her weapon. Chances are you’ll never fire yours. In the great outdoors, 10mm is a respectable handgun for deer hunting and anything less I look on as someone in great need or someone that disrespects the animal.

After this long, hopefully amusing rant, you might say “Well Pete, what did you just buy? You’ve been looking for a 9mm” and then I say “Well..... errr.... I was looking and then this fella had a Ruger Single Six in .32 H&R magnum... and ...I had to have it. Buy ammunition? Haha haha! Funny! You can’t even get all the components for reloading in one place online!”

We don’t talk about .357 Magnum and .32 Fed Mag because they are revolver cartridges but are good enough to hunt deer with when we say “there is no replacement for proper shot placement”.

Since I got that Ruger in an even trade, I still have discretionary money for a 9mm some day... but a proper wood and steel revolver beat it out for my “gotta have its”.

We start off with the good ole, “I carry a 45 because shooting twice is just silly” logic. Then we hit every branch on the gun store myth tree on our way down. As for going to war with a guy with a 10mm with a 9mm, anyone that carries a 9mm takes that chance every day. Does being good with a 10mm mean that 9mm bullets no longer can kill you? Good to know.

I feel pretty strongly that skill is the more important attribute in that contest than cartridge. Oh, and as for not needing to shoot twice with a 45, read the following. Now obviously not every self defense encounter will go that way. The point is shot placement is king. These are still handguns people.

https://www.policeone.com/officer-sh...BbLYpnqqHxwMq/

Edit: it’s hard to tell in the quoted post when the sarcasm ends and the real opinions begin, so if it was all sarcastic forgive me.

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Old April 7, 2020, 12:57 PM   #33
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Um, the 124gr +P HST outperformed the the 147gr +P HST. It achieved the same penetration depths and expansion diameter, but with a higher energy.

Any bullet will kill if put in the right place, but the point of self defense isn't killing, it's stopping. 10mm is a stopping round due to the higher velocity and energy.

Look, I get your a mega fanboy of the HST, but saying it's superior to 10mm because it penetrates deeper with less is beyond the pale. It takes more than a technologically advanced bullet design to make it a better ammo than 10mm and I'll give the HST and other bullet designs their due in that they've made 9mm a respectable defense caliber, but they don't make it better than 10mm in terms of defense capability.

I could be wrong, but killing seems like a pretty effective way of stopping/incapacitating a threat. If we’re going to talk about going beyond the pale, let’s address this too.


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Old April 7, 2020, 03:26 PM   #34
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10mm is closer to a .41mag than a .357mag.
Not really. The hottest 10mm loads are only 'close' in the .41 Mag's very low range.

Quote:
Recoil and second shot must be considered. Double tapping a 10mm is difficult to control.
Not for those who actually practice with it.

The key is to buy or handload 'practice' ammo that roughly equals your carry ammo, especially if you're packing one of the high-performance loads. That's been a 'basic lesson' for 10mm users since at least the late 1980s.

It's also another reason that reloading becomes your best buddy if you want to jump into the 10mm economically and see for yourself just how versatile it is and what it can really do ballistically, and maybe especially what it can do on both game & nuisance animals.

Not only is there a huge swath of available bullet-weights and styles to choose from, but the 10mm's also a very easy and forgiving cartridge to reload for.

Over the decades I've probably handloaded in excess of 10K-rds of 'training ammo' that approximates the same energy level as my EDC load, which tends to be run in the DT/Buff. Bore/Underwood range - i.e., 'heavy & fast.'

Until you've spent a good amount of time runnin'-n-gunnin' with the 10mm AUTO, you don't know what you don't know.

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Old April 7, 2020, 03:54 PM   #35
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Tunnel, it’s all in fun and meant to be a recitation of every mall ninja debate point. That’s the point. I even made every point you rebutted with... so I will pat myself on the back for an amusing post.
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Old April 7, 2020, 03:55 PM   #36
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Gotcha, fair enough.
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Old April 7, 2020, 06:55 PM   #37
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Ammo selection matters. For normal self defense, there are factory loads more on par with .40 S&W. The .40 S&W is excellent for normal self defense so that should work. One issue that's come up is that 10mm hasn't seen the same boosts in bullet technology that we've seen with 9mm, causing one member here to suggest that 9mm HST is superior. Personally, I think the .40-level loads in 10mm will be fine for normal self defense.

Of course, I mean "normal self defense" with respect to concealed carry in relatively civilized areas. This means threats like humans who mean you harm or maybe an aggressive dog. Generally, 9mm with good ammo is fine for this. You get a little more oomph from .40 S&W or .45acp but there are trade-offs. Both offer more recoil and less capacity. As the OP noted, the capacity trade-off with .45 acp is significant. This is part of the "why" for .40 S&W. The .40 gives you extra oomph with less of a loss in capacity and you can have it on 9mm-sized frames.

Speaking of size, guns in 10mm and .45acp tend to be large. That can put them at odds with concealed carry needs. All of these factors have helped 9mm to reclaim the concealed carry crown. Personally, I like 9mm in compact guns and .40 S&W in full-sized guns for normal carry. I like 10mm with more powerful ammo when I'm out in the woods. The venerable .45acp has slowly but completely fallen out my carry rotation.
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Old April 7, 2020, 07:58 PM   #38
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bullet set back

The 10mm/135gr bullet is very short in overall length, and not a lot of flat surface on the sides of the projectile before the ogive begins. There is not a great deal of bearing surface for case to projectile contact. When such an arrangement meets the feed ramp during the feed cycle, the bullet can be driven deeper into the case due to lack of "sticktion". This may be a gun to gun, issue, and I do not believe there are many factory loads using the 135 gr bullet except the boutique companies. But there is discussion regards the issue.
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Old April 7, 2020, 09:22 PM   #39
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It is a fine SD round, and certainly much, much better than the Wonder-9. The 10mm is spunky, but any man should be able to master it.
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Old April 8, 2020, 12:10 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
I could be wrong, but killing seems like a pretty effective way of stopping/incapacitating a threat. If we’re going to talk about going beyond the pale, let’s address this too.


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Yes, it's effective, but that's not the sole factor we're relying on to stop a threat. We want the threat stopped, if the aggressor dies, the aggressor dies. It's irrelevant in relation to threat being stopped.
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Old April 8, 2020, 06:54 AM   #41
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10mm for self defense

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Yes, it's effective, but that's not the sole factor we're relying on to stop a threat. We want the threat stopped, if the aggressor dies, the aggressor dies. It's irrelevant in relation to threat being stopped.

And here I thought the notion of “stopping power” was dead.

So I should choose a more powerful cartridge not because it can kill any better than another cartridge, but because it is better at “stopping”?

“Stopping the threat” is a phrase that acknowledges the end goal isn’t to kill the assailant but to eliminate his/her ability to do you harm. I fully understand that. That said, putting rounds into someone’s upper thoracic cavity and or cranial ocular cavity if the former proves ineffective is quite likely to result in death. That’s a reality that exists when a firearm is employed and why the use of a firearm is not taken lightly. The goal is to end the fight quickly to reduce the assailant’s chances to harm you and others. Hence shooting at the zones I previously mentioned. Many trainers discuss these as switches versus timers, with some shots resulting in a very quick cessation of violent action (often death) and the others allowing the assailant to keep fighting. Now if the assailant stops before he or she dies then yes, the idea of applying a coup de grace is considered unnecessary and illegal. However, the goal isn’t to poke holes in the assailant until he stops. If pain compliance is your aim, there are less lethal options that exist that are likely more effective in terms of incapacitating pain and aren’t nearly as likely to result in death.

I actually have no problem with the 10mm. If someone wants to carry it I say more power to him/her. The problem seems to be that discussions on 10mm often go to what I consider silly lengths to justify its use. The ballistics alone are justification and the trade offs are what they are and should be acknowledged. But when people start talking about how one cartridge is a “stopping” cartridge, I think we’ve gone a bit far, at least when we’re talking handgun cartridges. We’re back in the days of gun store tropes where a 45 will “knock a man down”. If you want real permanent stretch cavity step it up to a rifle, or damage on a larger scale then bring a shotgun into the equation.


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Old April 8, 2020, 08:44 AM   #42
wild cat mccane
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For self defense, does any other round other than 10mm have lbs talked about? Nope.

Never heard of anyone arguing it except in 10mm. It's always, "how's the penetration and expansion." Luckygunner tests don't even include this measure. It's meaningless. We are talking self defense--hollow points.

For FPS and people who only like 9mm, do you hear people say they carry Federal 115gr +p+ anymore? It has greater FPS than all 10mm commercial with 1300 FPS. Almost 300fps more than HST/Gold Dots! Nope. Mothball technology now.


So it does lead this one member to say the 9mm HST does better than all than two commercial 10mm loads in the Luckygunner test. This testing is available for anyone and uses the same medium across the rounds.

Again, as I already said, the 10mm in the Luckgunner test is a G20 with a 4.6" barrel. The 9mm is a M&Pc with a 3.5" barrel.

HST proves you don't need massive FPS to do best. It's the best 9mm round right now. It doesn't need high FPS. Best expansion. Best/almost too much penetration.

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Old April 8, 2020, 10:05 AM   #43
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It’s overkill for sd purposes.
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Old April 8, 2020, 12:59 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by wild cat mccane View Post
For self defense, does any other round other than 10mm have lbs talked about? Nope.
.357 Magnum. Well, people don't talk about the ft/lbs or velocity, they just talk about how powerful it is. What makes it powerful? The FPS and ft/lbs.

Never heard of anyone arguing it except in 10mm. It's always, "how's the penetration and expansion." Luckygunner tests don't even include this measure. It's meaningless. We are talking self defense--hollow points.

Quote:
For FPS and people who only like 9mm, do you hear people say they carry Federal 115gr +p+ anymore? It has greater FPS than all 10mm commercial with 1300 FPS. Almost 300fps more than HST/Gold Dots! Nope. Mothball technology now.
Some people do because they like the price of it, but I'll agree with you that 9mm +P+ is dead. It's FPS may be more than 10mm, but it's doing it with a 115gr bullet and not a 180gr bullet.


Quote:
So it does lead this one member to say the 9mm HST does better than all than two commercial 10mm loads in the Luckygunner test. This testing is available for anyone and uses the same medium across the rounds.

Again, as I already said, the 10mm in the Luckgunner test is a G20 with a 4.6" barrel. The 9mm is a M&Pc with a 3.5" barrel.

HST proves you don't need massive FPS to do best. It's the best 9mm round right now. It doesn't need high FPS. Best expansion. Best/almost too much penetration.
Let's leave FPS and ft/lbs aside for this question, but if you have two bullets that both expand to the same diameter, both penetrate 14 to 18 inches, but the difference between them is their starting diameter and weight, how can you say that one is better than the other?
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Old April 8, 2020, 02:02 PM   #45
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We can disagree. I'm cool with it. Honestly. But the standards are changing on this person defense question.

Bullet design is thrown out, FPS don't matter, lbs now don't matter...so it's weight of bullet now.

Most 10mm isn't up to standards of 9mm loads now. Gold Dot 10mm just came out and FPS is within the 9mm PD load levels.

But 33grs more from an older 180gr 10mm bullet makes the difference? Now we are just debating 40 vs 9mm. Believe it or not, 9mm won against 40 HST vs HST as posted by Federal testing. Auto glass was the only winner in 40. I could be wrong, but it's available for all to review. I'll happily be corrected here.


I'll take the better designed bullet.

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Old April 8, 2020, 03:07 PM   #46
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One thing I'd like to know is that since apparently energy foot-pounds don't matter anymore, why choose 9mm Luger over .380 ACP? I mean, it's the same diameter, modern JHPs such as Hornady XTPs will penetrate to at least 12" in IWBA Spec Ballistics Gel with full expansion, they can be fit into smaller, lighter, more easily concealed firearms, and has softer recoil in firearms of similar size. Just about the only tangible benefit 9mm Luger has over .380 ACP these days is energy, but apparently that doesn't matter at all, or is it merely that 9mm Luger is right at the threshold in which energy foot-pounds conveniently cease to make a difference?

And if bullet weight is more important, then shouldn't a 158gr .38 Special +P be superior to 9mm Luger?
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Old April 8, 2020, 03:42 PM   #47
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That's an easy answer.

No 380 performs in the 9mm range with expansion and penetration. It's not a question of bullet weight, fps, or lbs.

None are hitting .70+ expansion at 18" penetration.

If they did, 380 in a pocket size would be the clear winner in the single stacks. At 12-14" and expansion, Federal's new DEEP and XTP kinda does make it 380 acceptable. You're 2 inches from average 9mm penetration. XTP is designed not to expand as much though. So 380 technology hasn't worked out yet.

Look at my P365 vs the LCP. LCP is acceptable because it's hugely smaller. https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho....php?p=6721033

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Old April 8, 2020, 08:47 PM   #48
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It’s overkill for sd purposes.


Ah no, not at all.

There's no such outcome as 'overkill' resulting from a successful gunfight, ... if you're defending yourself.
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Old April 8, 2020, 09:07 PM   #49
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I have a Glock 29 (10mm) on my carry permit (in California, you have to specify the firearms on your permit - up to three). However, I rarely carry it.

I'm getting to the tail end of middle-age and I find it to be a bit of a hand full. Many who are younger and stronger would not. I carry it with Federal 180gn Hydra-Shok ammo; which is somewhat "de-tuned" and that helps with manageability. If I were younger, I'm sure I would carry it more. And if I was younger and in law enforcement, I would strongly consider the Glock 20 (which I also own).
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Old April 8, 2020, 10:14 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Dan-O View Post
It’s overkill for sd purposes.
Yep. Too much muzzle energy for most shooters, especially newbies. I guess that's why factory loads are so anemic now.
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