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Old April 2, 2020, 09:20 AM   #51
ToddRvs66
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I own a 10mm Glock 20 and I carried it bow hunting in Alaska a few years ago. In fact it may of saved my life back then.

Here is the story

My father and I was walking back to the trail head where we would meet our guide for a ride back into camp (My father and I were on a semi guided hunt) we had just spent the morning hours glassing for moose with no luck, we did see a few grizzly about 600 yards up a slope, which we did not realize would be the way we would walk back to meet up with our guide later for our ride back to camp.

Our guide did give us the typical Bear danger warning when we first arrived on the float plane at camp. We of course listened intently, he did tell us that most people never see a Grizzly while they hunt, but to be careful all the same. My dad and I planned this hunt for several years and it was the last hunt he and I went on together before he passed a year later. Any way I digress...

I was carrying a Glock 20 in 10mm with Buffalo Boar Heavy Game which are 220 Hard Nose Cast at about 1200 fps. This was my side arm for bear protection. I picked the 10 mm because of the powerful cartridge and the semi auto function of the gun.

So my dad and I was walking back along a running stream and enjoying the incredible aw inspiring views of Alaska, my dad says hey look over there is that a bear, I looked and did not see him at first because the bear was on the other side of the stream but I finally spotted him, has he was about maybe 200 yards up the stream from us just doing his thing, my dad and I stopped and decided to watch him, which I found out later that was a mistake. My dad said to me take a picture so we can show your mom when we get home , so I grabbed my cell phone and snapped a few shots, but the bear was too far away for my cell phone camera to really get a good picture. We watched him for maybe another 10 or 15 minutes or so watching him try and catch fish and just move along the bank. The Bear would occasionally look in our direction, but we were crouched in some high grass so I really did not think he could see us. After a while he must of winded us, because he trotted off up the slope and out of site.

My dad and I continued our hike back to waiting guide looking forward to telling everyone back in camp that we saw a grizzly. We were walking about 10 minutes with our destination about another 10 minutes or so away, when my dad and I heard this really god awful roar or growl or something, all I can say was my dad and I had never heard nothing like it before. We turned around and there was that grizzly about 100 yards or so behind us with his nose twitching and him growling, he started to make his way toward us at a very leisure pace. I remembered what the guide told us if confronted by a Grizzly don't run you will only die tired or something along that line. It was meant to be a light hearted joke by the guide to lighten the mood after telling us the grizzly safety lecture. He also told us to stand up straight and make a lot noise because most grizzly were just curious and unless something was very wrong they would run away if you made enough noise.

Anyhow my dad froze and I slowly un-holstered my Glock 10mm and we watched the grizzly for what seemed liked minutes but was really about 10 or 15 seconds, My dad and I started yelling and screaming at the grizzly it stopped popped up spun, around and ran in the other direction through the under brush and out of sight, we thought that was the end of it, then a few seconds later my dad and I heard that horrible roar and growl. If you have never heard a grizzly roar it is very unnerving and it will make the knap hairs on your neck stand up. I looked up and this grizzly must of made a 180 and was heading straight to us in a very slow, but deliberate trot toward us, we yelled and hollered again and this time the bear did not stop he kept coming at about maybe 60 yards or what I thought was 60 yards I fired 2 shots of the 10mm into the ground in front of the bear. The bear stopped skipped back stood there a second lifted his nose then thankfully he spun on his hind legs and ran off we did not see him again.

My dad and I had just let out a large sigh of relief and my dad and I started checking our drawers when we heard the guides gator coming toward us. When he got to us he jumped off the gator with his very large caliber rifle and yelled are you fellows alright, aside from being scared out of our wits and our adrenalin spiking we were fine. We relayed what happened to the guide and he listened the guide walked over to where I shot at the bear to make sure I did not hit it because he did not want a wounded bear running around. He walked over to where I said I shot at it, but he did not find any blood or sign I hit the bear. He found where my two 10mm slugs had plowed into the tundra. The guide was standing less than 30 yards away, actually 27 yards as paced off and not the 60 yards I had thought the bear was. The guide said "well you boys are either incredibly lucky or you have an angel lookin out for you to be that close to a charging bear and not get bit up." He said that was the first Bear Charge he had heard of in some years.

Well my dad and I did not harvest anything on that trip but we sure had one hell of story to tell.
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Old April 2, 2020, 09:22 AM   #52
wild cat mccane
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That's great for hunting, but commercially, a 9mm hp performs better than almost all commercial 40 rounds for expansion AND penetration. Most 40 expand big, but don't penetrate. This makes little sense if you believe the higher weights of 40/10mm give a huge advantage for your hunting. For expansion it does great. But that doesn't help the penetration.

HST 9mm 147gr +P does better than most of the 10mm commercial rounds. Only Speer Gold and Sig Crown V 10mm best HST 9mm for expansion and penetration.

9mm HST 147gr +P beats all but two 357 commercial round too. (Golden Saber and Federal XBP in a 4" barrel)

All at a tiny 1050fps and much smaller package.

Using results, your actually would be better suited hitting game with this round. Big expansion and deeper penetration.

Luckygunner used the full sized Glock 20 barrel (4.6") and the 9mm is tested with a M&P compact (3.5")

https://www.luckygunner.com/9mm-p-14...ment-50-rounds


Recall, everyone is citing figures of depth, fps, and expansion in here. Because I've mentioned 9mm, suddenly there will be a problem with results.

Last edited by wild cat mccane; April 2, 2020 at 09:51 AM.
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Old April 2, 2020, 12:18 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Gill View Post
Steve, tell me about the sights on your 40. Thanks
My Glock is actually a Gen 3 Glock 21 I first got back in early 2004. The slide is a custom German steel frame one I originally got for my G21 from Lone Wolf Distributors in July of 2004. (You can tell it's not a G40 or newer stainless slide as they all have a rounded nose while mine has the squared off nose like the Glock slides.) The slide came as shown with a target Bo-Mar rear and metal Glock style front sight. I added the internals from a set I got from Lone Wolf, a Jarvis blued steel 6" 45acp barrel, and I was set.



Shortly after converting it to a 45 longslide, I got the itch for a 10mm, in part because of hearing MarkCO talk about his 10mm and putting down an elk with it when we were both over on Glocktalk. The itch grew quickly and in the fall of 2004, I'd done some mockup work using the barrel from my G22 and realized that it might just be possible. After meeting Dave Humke, owner of Glockparts at a local gunshow (he lived not far from me in the mountains) and finding out that he was a Master Armorer at Glock for years, I told him of my idea and asked his advice.

I explained that besides the .050" larger bolt face, it looked like the G21's slide would work just fine with the thicker 10mm barrel used on the G20 (Glock apparently designed the G20's slide with the G21 in mind) so that all I needed was a 10mm barrel with a hood that fit the 45's wider breach face. He listened and agreed that I had an idea that was possible.

In addition, we checked his parts and discovered that the G20's extractor gave no greater purchase on the case rim than that of the G21's but that then new LCI extractor had a canted claw vs the older design with the straight one and that made for a better grip on the case. As my G21 came with the old flat style, I picked up an LCI extractor from Dave and I was set with the exception of a 10mm conversion barrel. So I set out to see if I could talk a barrel maker into making me one. The first few refused but undaunted, I pressed on.

I called Kevin of KKM Precision (RIP) and asked if he would be willing to take on my project; a one off, 6" 45-10MM conversion barrel for my Glock G21 Longslide. I explained that my investigation seemed to reveal that all that was different from a stock Glock 20 barrel besides it's length was that the hood over the chamber needed to be about .050" wider than stock to fit correctly in the wider 45 breach face. After checking his drawings and confirming that the only difference between the G20 and G21 barrels was the chamber and bore as well as the hood, he said it was a simple NC machining command change. So with the proviso that if the barrel didn't work, I couldn't return it, he agree to make me one. I didn't have a problem with that as it was a unique part so I ordered one and soon thereafter it arrived.

3 Minutes after I put it together, here is the world's first G20 Longslide.



Not long after putting it together, testing it and finding that the target chamber opening needed a tiny bit of relieving (more of just breaking the sharp corners), I took my newly named G20/21L up to Dave's home where he had a large range in the valley behind his home. We both gave it a run off of his back porch and he agreed that I had a winner. I subsequently replaced the front sight with the thin BO-Mar FO front sight you see in my first post above.

Over the years I've updated it, adding a custom trigger job and parts to use it for some USPSA Limited competitions. I added a magwell for competition that I remove when out in the woods to save weight, +2 mag extensions to give me 17+1 rds on board, added a Grip Force Adapter to fill-in the deep cutout that makes all Glocks grips feel different from my 1911s, and then I had the slide hard chromed just for grins. I found that I didn't shoot 45acp in it hardly at all even though I added +1 extensions to the 45 mags as well giving me 14+1 rds.

However, a few years ago I also got a few 45 Super cases for the heck of it and loaded up some 45 Super ammo to see how it performed in the 6" Jarvis barrel. While powerful, to reach the 45 Super's full potential you need to have a muzzle break and I'm not a fan of those so I stick to it as a 10mm platform. I like the 10mm loads better anyway as they are far more flat shooting with lower recoil for the performance and as I like to shoot longer distances, it was the choice for me. In addition, I can carry 17+1 of 10mm vs only 14+1 of 45 Super out in the woods and with my 180grn hardcast 10mm loads packing almost 900ft/lbs of ME, it's a potent defense against any 2 or 4 legged threat.

Currently, at over 16 years old and with thousands of rds of full power 10mm through it, it still turns heads. It's always a ton of fun to shoot and the throaty roar of my Power Pistol handloads still gets heads to turn at the range.

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Old April 2, 2020, 12:23 PM   #54
Gary Gill
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Thanks Steve. I found this sight. I may put one on my 21

https://www.kingglock.com/Detail.asp...30785&CAT=5194
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Old April 2, 2020, 01:10 PM   #55
COSteve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wild cat mccane View Post
That's great for hunting, but commercially, a 9mm hp performs better than almost all commercial 40 rounds for expansion AND penetration. Most 40 expand big, but don't penetrate. This makes little sense if you believe the higher weights of 40/10mm give a huge advantage for your hunting. For expansion it does great. But that doesn't help the penetration.

HST 9mm 147gr +P does better than most of the 10mm commercial rounds. Only Speer Gold and Sig Crown V 10mm best HST 9mm for expansion and penetration.

9mm HST 147gr +P beats all but two 357 commercial round too. (Golden Saber and Federal XBP in a 4" barrel)

All at a tiny 1050fps and much smaller package.

Using results, your actually would be better suited hitting game with this round. Big expansion and deeper penetration.

Luckygunner used the full sized Glock 20 barrel (4.6") and the 9mm is tested with a M&P compact (3.5")

https://www.luckygunner.com/9mm-p-14...ment-50-rounds

Recall, everyone is citing figures of depth, fps, and expansion in here. Because I've mentioned 9mm, suddenly there will be a problem with results.
Your premise above, even though your argument muddles up the performance of the 40s&w and 10mm as the same and is therefore fallacious in it's attempt is, simply put, not supported by the facts. However, you have inadvertently supported my point that my 6" G20L or a Glock G40 is superior to a 4.6" G20 and any 40s&w.

Your argument comparing anemic commercial 10mm produced to 40s&w velocities to premium 9mm+P ammo demonstrates that rather than providing factual data, you clearly have an agenda and your post is biased and unsound. My data is factual while yours is propaganda. You ignore completely the premium 10mm ammo in your rant above such as Buffalo Bore's or Double Tap's in your analysis of both the 10mm and .357mag proving that your agenda is what's important rather than the facts. I handload both 10mm and .357mag and know your 'data' is not representative.

Performance wise, my 165grn hot handloads produce an Oehler 35 chrono'd honest average of 1,589fps, my 180grn produce 1,479fps, and my 200grn produce 1,383fps at my 6,100ft asl range on an 84° summer day. I don't care how large the bullet expands or doesn't, those huge velocity increases over your smaller, lighter, slower 147grn 9mm+P choice drives penetration far into even the toughest animal.

Further, the 9mm+P load produces a sharp snap in recoil reducing any followup advantage a standard 9mm rd may have over even a 40s&w. I own a G22 and G23 and shoot 180grn handloads that produce less muzzle flip than your 147grn 9mm+P do in a G17 or G19. I know because I've compared the two calibers at our range. If you haven't, you should give them a side by side try yourself.

But I digress as your claims are between the 9mm+P and 10mm. Your assertion is that your 9mm penetrates farther than the larger 10mm. The facts are that the Muzzle Energy difference of the larger, faster 10mm bullets over that of your 'vaunted' 9mm HST 147gr +P are so large as to render you argument as nonsense.

* 9mm HST 147gr +P = 147grn 9mm bullet @ 1,050fps produces 360ft/lbs muzzle energy out of your pistol.
* 10mm, 165grn handloads = 1,589fps produces 925ft/lbs of muzzle energy out of a G40 or 2.6 times the muzzle energy of your 9mm.
* 10mm, 180grn handloads = 1,479fps produces 874ft/lbs of muzzle energy out of a G40 or 2.4 times the muzzle energy of your 9mm.
* 10mm, 200grn handloads = 1,383fps produces 849ft/lbs of muzzle energy out of a G40 or 2.4 times the muzzle energy of your 9mm.

Even a fool can see that the larger, heavier 10mm bullets produce far, far more energy and penetration than your silly example. As many have said, the 10mm is ideal for a handloader as the commercial 10mm ammo generally produced is anemic and barely faster than decent 40s&w loads. To get true 10mm performance, you have to go to premium commercial 10mm ammo (just as you have with your 9mm HST 147gr +P).
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Old April 2, 2020, 01:23 PM   #56
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nice thread, following
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Old April 2, 2020, 03:45 PM   #57
wild cat mccane
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I believe I used the word "commercial" 40 times in my post...so I kinda stopped reading that book on how I was wrong

But to follow up on that, there is only one bullet that supports super high speeds and that's the XTP that controls and then stops expansion. XTP doesn't blossom open and supports the pedals with the base. That isn't true of the Speer/Federal line.

So unless you're loading that, super fast FPS could be making your hollow point fail.
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Old April 2, 2020, 03:46 PM   #58
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10mm

Been a fan for 20+years. Carried a 1911 pattern {Dan Wesson -Razorback} 10mm on duty for a long time. Fun Gun = Glock 40 with Burris Fastfire 3 optics. That is one accurate and dependable weapon. Never go wrong with 10mm chambering. I prefer the lighter loadings 135 / 140 grain loads.
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This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. I must master itas i master my life.Without me my rifle is useless, without my rifle i am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I Will. Before God i swear this creed. My rifle and myself are defenders of my country. We are masters of our enemy. We are saviours of my life. So be it until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen.
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Old April 12, 2020, 04:51 PM   #59
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Blah blah... I own and shoot 10mm because there awesome guns to shoot.
I love my Colt Delta elite... I did own a glock 20... it was like shooting a 2x4... but glocks are a very reliable platform.. just not for me.
10mm is alot of fun.
I hand load so I can squeeze that 10mm to do what it was ment to do.
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Old April 14, 2020, 03:09 PM   #60
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I love my Colt Delta elite
Took three pages before someone recommended this awesome 1911. I was bitten by the 10mm bug last year and after a lot of consideration I went with the Delta Elite and haven't looked back.

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Old April 14, 2020, 04:07 PM   #61
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That Colt is a beautiful weapon. Man, are they pricy, though.
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Old April 16, 2020, 04:11 PM   #62
Old 454
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Yea there a bit pricey... but man there nice.
Mine is the two tone with the solid black trigger... though I read somewhere that this was a limited run ... no idea if that's true.

If I could post pics I would... but for some reason firing line will not let me
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Old April 16, 2020, 04:16 PM   #63
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Still wont let me...
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Old April 16, 2020, 04:22 PM   #64
Gary Gill
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I have been following this thread. I purchased a Glock 40 MOS yesterday a long with a set of dies. Brass and projectiles have been ordered in anticipation joining the 10mm fun club.
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Old April 16, 2020, 04:55 PM   #65
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Good for you. Looking forward to a range report. I've a friend who bought the Glock 20 and is suffering a bit of buyers remorse for not getting the Glock 40.

Do you plan on putting an optical sight on it?
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Old April 16, 2020, 04:59 PM   #66
Gary Gill
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I plan to mount red dot on it. I have been shooting a Glock 17 that I had milled and mounted a Holosun 507c-GR. I decided to go with the Glock 40 MOS so I might try a couple of different optics.
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Old April 16, 2020, 05:31 PM   #67
Forte S+W
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wild cat mccane
I believe I used the word "commercial" 40 times in my post...so I kinda stopped reading that book on how I was wrong
How convenient seeing as his "book" completely invalidated your entire argument, or should I call a light novel, considering your argument wasn't all that much shorter than his counter-argument was?

Also, I'm pretty sure that most folks who are using 10mm pistols for Bear Defense aren't using "commercial" 10mm FBI Loads, but rather something significantly hotter. So either way, your argument is invalid.
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Old April 16, 2020, 08:29 PM   #68
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Gotta love how the Wild Kitty cherry-picks the ballistic data.

Sign of a typical 10mm-hater right there.
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Old April 18, 2020, 12:02 PM   #69
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Old April 18, 2020, 02:04 PM   #70
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Marvelous photos bac1023 (as usual).
I remember reading the late Col. Cooper's comments about the Bren Ten, nice to see some pictures.
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Old April 19, 2020, 08:06 AM   #71
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Beautiful, Bac. Thanks for posting the pics.

That's the 'Sonny Crockett' edition too. Hard-chromed slide over bead-blasted stainless frame.
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Old April 19, 2020, 12:33 PM   #72
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Wow... that is very nice... thanks for sharing
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Old April 19, 2020, 06:55 PM   #73
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Thanks guys

Just to clarify, this isn't the model Sonny used in Miami Vice. He used a Bren Ten Standard Model with an aftermarket chrome finish on the slide to help it show up on camera. The model you see above is the Special Forces Light, which is factory chromed, but has a shorter barrel. Only 75 ever made.

Here's the Standard Model, except mine has the factory blued slide.















Here you can see the difference in barrel length...

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Old April 20, 2020, 05:36 AM   #74
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Bac, what's the barrel length on the SFL model? 4.25"?
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Old April 20, 2020, 06:29 AM   #75
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Actually, no.

The SFL and SFD are both 4”, so a full inch shorter than the SM.

The SFD has a blackened stainless frame with a blued slide. They are a bit more common than the SFL, but still very rare. In fact, Forgotten Weapons did a video on the Special Forces Dark.

Watch it when you have a chance. Good info.
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