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Old March 17, 2020, 08:12 PM   #26
FrankenMauser
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I've never seen an AR that wouldn't do at least 1.5MOA.
I've had two that were exceptionally terrible.

I still have one barrel (16.5", mid-gas) that averaged about 5 MoA.

You can have it. Just cover shipping and let us know how it runs for you.
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Old March 17, 2020, 10:10 PM   #27
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I'm glad I didn't feel compelled to make a dash for guns n ammo. I already got some. The panic buying public freaks me out more than the threat of the virus. I got three kids home eating everything in sight. That stresses me out.
Anyways....my AR interest started like yours. The more I looked into them, I just had to have one. I got bargain one though and although it doesn't shoot cloverleaves, I love how easy it is to shoot well and maintain. I think of the AR as more of a parallel to the AK than a precision rifle.
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Old March 18, 2020, 12:32 AM   #28
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There is nothing wrong with an AR and nothing particularly magical about them either. I don't care for the zing zing in my ear and now in California you have to put too many stupid things on them to keep them legal. A mini with a strut is more compact and a decent alternative. Really if you have a reliable centerfire pistol in a service caliber and a 12 gauge hunting shotgun with a variety of ammo you are pretty well armed! 357 magnum lever rifles are outstanding too.
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Old March 18, 2020, 02:09 AM   #29
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Virus fears have put a damper on my 2 AR projects. Almost no one is spending money on their motorcycles so I don't have the bux to spend on gun stuff.

Shillen sells a heavy .223 barrel with a matched bolt that I was hoping to buy. It cost as much as some cheap ARs but what the hell, it's what I want. Now I'm thinking it could be a couple more years before I get back to this project.

What a shame, it was really looking like it was going to be a good year until this crapola hit...

Tony
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Old March 18, 2020, 03:09 AM   #30
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Ask a gun store whether they have any ARs concealed behind a door.
Academy Sports hid their ARs in back rooms etc, after the horrible Sandy Hook tragedy.
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Old March 18, 2020, 03:40 AM   #31
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Saturday I sold an AR I've had sitting in my shop for 4 years and a Marlin Camp 9 I've had for 3 years. Never advertised it, somebody just asked if I had any guns I'm trying to sell. Money's always good.
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Old March 18, 2020, 10:31 AM   #32
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I built a couple ARs from parts online and FFL transferred receivers. I recommend building your own for the curious enthusiast who has the mechanical skills to change a kitchen sink out, or change the oil on a lawn mower. It’s just following directions and wrenching stuff together.

You’ll need an armorers barrel wrench and a set of punch pins and a work bench and maybe the most basic of hand tools. A set of go and no-go gauges. When all done, you can sell the specialty tools on eBay. (eBay Is for selling, not buying. In general.)

If a good trigger is your thing, buy a match trigger. If accuracy, buy a solid barrel. Etc. I found that the design is really brilliant from an accuracy point of view because loosely speaking, everything is attached to the chamber. The bolt assembly, barrel and sights are sort of one tiny cannon and the rifle part... is just underneath, keeping out of the way.

As for hoarding and prices... it’s pretty fair to say the regulars around here are well stocked up.

Sadly, I expect many people may need cash before this whole thing steadies out so I am keeping my powder dry for any new purchases.

That said, the best advice I have heard so far is “act as if you are carrying the virus”. You just might be. The goal is to keep from spreading the sickness to lots of people, not to keep yourself from getting it. Not that it’s a bad thing if I don’t get it, but it’s worse if I give it to 10 others.

I have been looking over my copy of “complete guide to handloading” by Phillip B. Sharpe (3rd edition, 2nd rev) 1953 again.

This old book is close enough after the Great Depression that it has all sorts of useful chapters such as ‘how to make your own shotgun pellets in a pinch” Chapters and chapters on how powder is made (in factories), effects of rifling on shooting shotgun pellets out of pistols, all sorts of old times stuff still of interest, esp on cheap mil surplus rifles.
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Old March 18, 2020, 03:02 PM   #33
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it looks like people are spending $1300 and getting almost 2 MOA. Maybe it's unrealistic to buy an AR-15 for accuracy.
maybe its the shooter, not the gun? You won't know unless you give it a try, right? But if you already have negative thoughts about the platform, maybe its not worth it afterall?
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Old March 18, 2020, 04:38 PM   #34
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AR14s () are known to have hyper-sensitive respiratory systems and are, accordingly, extremely susceptible to contracting Corvid-19 - more commonly called the 'Kung Flu'.

Reasonable precautions and protocols are therefore indicated.

M1 Garands, on the other hand, have never suffered from such respiratory viruses.
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Old March 18, 2020, 05:20 PM   #35
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Here's how I look at it. I have a $200 Savage .17 HMR that shoots 1 MOA at 100 yards on calm days. If I spend several times as much on an AR15 that can't do the same thing, I will be disappointed. If all a gun is good for is showering a target with rounds at 4 MOA, I might as well stick with an AK47 or Vz58.
The thing is, not everyone wants to sit on their butt at a bench and see how small their groups can be. As you pointed out, your .17 HMR can generally be expected to do better than a AR, but then an AR was never designed to be a target rifle. They were designed to be a general issue infantry rifle that has been pressed into many different uses and configurations over the last 60 years.

I have several AR's running the gamut from a suppressed 10" barrel SBR, to a couple retro M16 clones, a M4 and a HBAR Match Sport that I used to compete with. I can tell you that with the right ammo an AR can be stunningly accurate. Running bulk military grade ammo through a stock AR and expecting MOA accuracy is unrealistic.

Now this was many years ago before my eyes went south, but back in the late eighties through the early nineties when I was competing in the NRA matches, my HBAR was capable of near MOA using NM iron sights and the handloads that I developed for it. I can't remember the exact load, but I do remember using 68 grain match bullets and W748 powder. IIRC, I estimated the velocity at 2900 fps and it was 100% reliable and deadly accurate. Nowadays they use VLD bullets and are getting good results out to 600 yards.

Where AR's really shine is when you are doing run and gun type shooting and you need to have fast target acquisition between shots. I also like to shoot my AK's, at the same sort of events but if I am out just shooting I mostly stand offhand and plink at reactive targets. I find sitting at a bench to be a total snooze fest unless I am sighting in a gun.
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Old March 18, 2020, 05:30 PM   #36
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the only people truly affected by the lack of AR15 availability are the just turned 18 year olds.
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Old March 18, 2020, 08:24 PM   #37
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Where AR's really shine is when you are doing run and gun type shooting and you need to have fast target acquisition between shots. I also like to shoot my AK's, at the same sort of events but if I am out just shooting I mostly stand offhand and plink at reactive targets. I find sitting at a bench to be a total snooze fest unless I am sighting in a gun.
Totally agree.
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Old March 18, 2020, 09:07 PM   #38
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I wonder how many of the ones standing in line to get a firearm were anti-gunners just a week or so ago??
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Old March 18, 2020, 10:30 PM   #39
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People are starting to buy guns and ammo, but I don't see a panic like the last one on .22 shells and Ar's. Toilet paper? That one surprised me a little bit. Hell! people have lived without toilet paper for hundreds of years. It's convenient, for sure, but not at the top of my survival list.
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Old March 18, 2020, 10:34 PM   #40
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It's mass insanity. People are even buying up bottled water. No sane person thinks water systems are going to be shut down.
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Old March 18, 2020, 10:36 PM   #41
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They were designed to be a general issue infantry rifle that has been pressed into many different uses and configurations over the last 60 years.
You'd have to go look through Eugene Stoner's papers to see if he left any record of what he designed the AR-15 to be. Or consult a medium.

What the Govt first bought them for was not as a general issue infantry rifle. Gen LeMay bought some for his Air Force SAC guards, to replace the M1 carbines they had. The Army was dropping the carbine, and the Air Force got its small arms and support parts from the Army, so LeMay was going to be "out in the cold" holding on to the carbine and found a superior replacement.

It was the "whiz kids" at the MacNamara defense dept that decided it would be a general issue infantry rifle, whether the Army wanted it, or not. There was a lot of pushback for some time, but they made it stick and here we are today with multiple variants to better fill various roles.


Quote:
I wonder how many of the ones standing in line to get a firearm were anti-gunners just a week or so ago??
Probably not too many, yet. Spoke to a friend today who works at a shop and yes LOTS of people who never before were interested are buying guns.

I think the "Converted" anti gunners will show up in droves IF civil unrest reaches violent levels. The irony is, IF it gets to that point, they probably won't be able to get at gun, legally. Even worse, if they can, they won't know much, if anything about how (and WHEN, and when NOT TO) to use it.
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Old March 18, 2020, 10:41 PM   #42
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Sounds like the AR-15 is not for me. If I'm understanding people correctly, it does the same thing as the AK and Vz58, in a caliber I don't like as much. Why the AR10 is so much more accurate is a mystery to me. Perhaps someone here knows.

I really enjoy target shooting for precision. I can do that right here at home. I can't run around like Keanu Reeves, firing frantically at steel. Too much potential for sending a round off the property.
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Old March 18, 2020, 11:29 PM   #43
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44AMP made an excellent observation.

Can almost everybody here shoot 2 MOA without being in the transcendental meditation position on just the right bench and sitting on just the right stool, leaning the gun preferably on the correct small bean bag?

And is a red dot scope required?
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Old March 18, 2020, 11:39 PM   #44
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Sounds like the AR-15 is not for me. If I'm understanding people correctly, it does the same thing as the AK and Vz58
I'm not a devotee for either religion.
But I do have to say that commercial ARs do a lot more than the AK can do, in regards to reliability and accuracy.

If you had said "SKS" I would have let it slide. But you had to go for the AK...
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Old March 19, 2020, 05:35 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Swifty Morgan View Post
Sounds like the AR-15 is not for me. If I'm understanding people correctly, it does the same thing as the AK and Vz58, in a caliber I don't like as much. Why the AR10 is so much more accurate is a mystery to me. Perhaps someone here knows.

I really enjoy target shooting for precision. I can do that right here at home. I can't run around like Keanu Reeves, firing frantically at steel. Too much potential for sending a round off the property.
AR 15s are used extensively in Service Rifle matches...that is not a "run around" type of competition.
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Old March 19, 2020, 09:33 AM   #46
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If you buy the cheapest bulk ammo you can find for your ar10 it won’t be anymore accurate than an ar15 with the same ammo. It depends on how much you want to spend per trigger pull for 30 cent a round my ar with 2 or 3 moa ammo will do the same job as 75 cent a round .5 moa match ammo at any legal defense distance. My 14.5 barreled ar15 can do sub MOA all day if I want to spend the money. Most of us by the cheapest ammo so we can practice more.
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Old March 19, 2020, 11:03 AM   #47
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This has got to be one of the most chaotic threads I have read on here in a while.

AR pattern (AR15s, MSRs, and the various .308 platforms) have an "operating system" that lends itself well to a variety of pursuits. While I don't hunt much big game with them (too heavy for what they are) I do shoot a variety of competitions with them, shoot varmints and predators, utilize for HD, train LE and just generally plink. I have them in 8 calibers (.22LR, 9mm, 10mm, .223 Wylde, 6.5PCC, 6.8 SPC, .308 and .450BM). That operating system is different for each and the ammo I shoot. The operating system parameters, and how it is built, affect the accuracy.

I have an upper (sold him a barrel) from a customer who could not get better than 5MOA that I am diagnosing. The barrel is capable of .25 MOA, so something is wrong. Steel cased ammo with bi-metal jackets can print in the 3 MOA range from a rifle that prints .5 MOA with match grade ammo. If the barrel nut is loose, or the gun is significantly overgassed, those can also degrade accuracy. People also tend to get sloppy because it is a "bullet hose" so their technique degrades when in fact, the AR pattern rifles are more sensitive to poor technique than a bolt gun.

It may not be a person's cup of tea, but they are very capable of accuracy beyond what the average person can deliver. They are relatively easy to shoot for persons of various statures and they are easily adapted. You probably are not going to see many capable to 1 MOA or better for less than $1000, but unless there is a problem, almost all of them are capable of delivering 2 MOA or better with decent ammo and good technique as long as the sights are solid.
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Old March 19, 2020, 01:08 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Swifty Morgan View Post
Sounds like the AR-15 is not for me. If I'm understanding people correctly, it does the same thing as the AK and Vz58, in a caliber I don't like as much. Why the AR10 is so much more accurate is a mystery to me. Perhaps someone here knows.

I really enjoy target shooting for precision. I can do that right here at home. I can't run around like Keanu Reeves, firing frantically at steel. Too much potential for sending a round off the property.
if you have an AR15 OR an AK47 with a 1,000 rounds of ammo you'll be fine.
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Old March 20, 2020, 12:16 PM   #49
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What MarkCO said. I also own half a dozen AR's of various calibers and barrel lengths. If I just want to plink, shoot at steel under 100 yards or work on my speed shooting a silhouette target at 50 yards I've got an 11.5" BCM upper attached to a pistol brace with a Primary Arms red dot. It's light, easy to get on target quickly, accurate enough with XM195 or Wolf Gold and didn't cost a lot to put together.

If I want to shoot tiny groups or steel out to 4-600 yards I've got a nice 18" LaRue upper in 6.5 CM with a 1.8x10 U.S. Optic scope. (Yes, I know this is actually an AR10 platform). Will shoot 1 MOA with match ammo it likes (and is probably capable of better groups if my technique were better). But it wasn't cheap to build and isn't cheap to shoot, and is not the best choice for HD or shooting under 50 yards.

But that's the great thing about AR's - they are very versatile and depending on barrel length, caliber and how you scope them they can be set up for long range shooting, HD, hunting, cheap plinking, or overall versatility.

Used to own an AK, but sold it to buy more AR's. Apart from being potentially more expensive, they are really superior to AK's in every way. They are far more ergonomic (i.e. the stock is not designed for a short, 120 pound asian). They will almost certainly be more accurate. They have less recoil. They are easier to scope and there are an unlimited number of options for different optics. Their stock triggers are better and their aftermarket triggers are far better. And, as mentioned before, they are far more versatile.

Finally, not sure where your belief that AR10's are so much more accurate than AR15's. Maybe, if you want to shoot out beyond 5-600 yards where the larger bullets of an AR10 will be less affected by the wind, but for anything under 500 yards most AR15's can definitely hand with AR10's.
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Old March 20, 2020, 01:56 PM   #50
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When the virus is over and if Trump wins the election then there will probably be sales on guns and ammo like we've never seen before.

If Trump loses then what we have is what we have. There won't be any to be had.
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