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Old September 1, 2019, 03:36 PM   #176
stagpanther
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Obsolete? sure, just like 9mm pistol cartridges are obsolete.

The use of the word obsolete means it's completely outclassed by better technology and no longer serves any real purpose. That will likely never happen with the 5.56. All that said--is an intense effort under way to develop--and ultimately field-- a new class off weapon and cartridge that will set a new paradigm for the combat carbine and LR light machine gun? It sure looks like it, and I sure hope they succeed, but that's still a far stretch from having battle-ready masses of weapons ready to go in just a few years. Money isn't made by being efficient in the weapons procurement process these days.
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Old September 1, 2019, 03:54 PM   #177
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Also, not directed to anyone in particular, but bolding, coloring, and using bigger font doesn’t convince people of things they already read in normal font and didn’t believe then.
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Old September 1, 2019, 04:08 PM   #178
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This round sounds more or less like a .270 WIN short.
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Old September 1, 2019, 06:47 PM   #179
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Maybe to you but having experienced the obsolescence of 5.56mm first hand as well as see the beginning of the program to change it...

Did you shoot someone with a 5.56 and have the rounds stopped by advanced body armor?
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Old September 1, 2019, 11:12 PM   #180
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Did you shoot someone with a 5.56 and have the rounds stopped by advanced body armor?
No, we averaged 8 rounds the first tour with green tip in the house to put a target not wearing body armor down.

Outside the house they simply out-ranged us.

The advanced body armor is showing up on the battle field. In fact you can order it online.....

https://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-arm...r-10-x-12.html
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Old September 1, 2019, 11:15 PM   #181
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Also, not directed to anyone in particular, but bolding, coloring, and using bigger font doesn’t convince people of things they already read in normal font and didn’t believe then.
And being oblivious to the current events on the battle field does not make one credible either.
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Old September 1, 2019, 11:20 PM   #182
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The use of the word obsolete means it's completely outclassed by better technology and no longer serves any real purpose.
It is not going to serve any purpose on the battlefield anymore so than an M1 Garand or an 1861 Springfield Rifled Musket.

Obsolete is obsolete for military purposes. You may continue to enjoy putting holes in paper or if it is even a legal round for Deer in your state....hunting.

That has nothing to do with the fact the round is obsolete for military purposes.
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Old September 1, 2019, 11:31 PM   #183
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The new ammunition could take many rounds to stop an advancing person as well. You need to either severely disrupt the central nervous system or damage the skeletal structures enough to cause it to no longer support the person.
If the new ammunition is designed to penetrate you will pretty much have the same problem. Close range and penetrating ammunition such as green tip is not a good combination. That’s the whole issue with military ammunition. The high velocity and mass of the new bullet will help, but sounds like it will still over penetrate. I think your experience will duplicate at times inside of a home or similar structure. Sometimes bad guys don’t go down.

Longer range is a different story, the new ammunition should outperform 5.56 by a large margin. Should outperform 5.56 against body armor as well.

... no body armor within a few feet, unpredictable with ammunition designed to penetrate.
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Old September 1, 2019, 11:33 PM   #184
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The round is not obsolete in the military , because it is still in common use by the military. That simple.

There’s not even a successful replacement... yet.
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Old September 2, 2019, 06:23 AM   #185
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No, we averaged 8 rounds the first tour with green tip in the house to put a target not wearing body armor down.
How was this stat generated?

In other words, is this the result of counting the number of rounds fired during a mission and dividing by the number of targets down or is this an average of the number of COM hits required to down a target?

Also, out of curiosity, were the shots typically fired SA or burst/full auto?
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Old September 2, 2019, 09:05 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by davidsog
The advanced body armor is showing up on the battle field. In fact you can order it online.....
The body armor you linked to will not stop older M855 (greentip) or current issue M855A1.

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And being oblivious to the current events on the battle field does not make one credible either.
Mmmmmm hmmmm.
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Old September 2, 2019, 09:57 AM   #187
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How was this stat generated?

By going into buildings with bad guys and shooting them until they are no longer a threat.
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Old September 2, 2019, 10:10 AM   #188
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The body armor you linked to will not stop older M855 (greentip) or current issue M855A1.
According the page you re-linked it sure is rated to stop 5.56mm M855.

I will bold it as a courtesy so you do not have to search for the answer.

Quote:
AR500 Armor® Polyethylene Body Armor Threat Level:

Level III

7.62x51 M80 Ball at 2800 FPS
5.56x45 M193 at 3150 FPS
7.62x39 AK 47 at 2380 FPS
I will bold it as a courtesy so you do not have to search for the answer. This is with a 20 inch barrel....that is the maximum velocity as longer barrels produce diminishing returns.

Quote:
4 g (62 gr) SS109 FMJBT 940 m/s (3,100 ft/s)
https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknF...45mm_NATO.html


I do not know what you where seeing but the facts for 5.56mm M855 do not pan out. You most certainly can buy body armor on the internet which will defeat 5.56mm.

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Old September 2, 2019, 10:48 AM   #189
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davidsog, the plate is rated to what that manufacturer describes as “Level III.” According to their own description, level III only stops 55gr M193 (the round used by the Army from initial operational use through the adoption of the M16A2). If you’ll look at your own helpfully highlighted post, you’ll see this.

Plates capable of stopping 62gr M855 are described as “Level III+” and the only plates this manufacturer offers with that rating are AR500 steel plates. UHMWPE doesn’t stop M855 or M855A1, even though it does stop M193.

To see this explained in more detail:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ONpYkB0Q-3o
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Old September 2, 2019, 11:04 AM   #190
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But none of the bolded ones are m855 or m855a1, why bold those? I kinda had the idea that m193 and ss109 had become obsolete and is not being used by the army.

But you’re right that ar500 is listed as being effective against m855
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Old September 2, 2019, 11:25 AM   #191
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No, we averaged 8 rounds the first tour with green tip in the house to put a target not wearing body armor down.

Outside the house they simply out-ranged us.

The advanced body armor is showing up on the battle field. In fact you can order it online.....

What makes the cartridge obsolete? Is it the advanced body armor the Senator mentioned, is it shooting someone eight times, or is it being out ranged?
If the answer is anything but the advanced body armor, we have been using an "obsolete" cartridge for decades. If the answer is the advanced body armor, your comments about shooting eight times and being out ranged aren't relevant.
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Old September 2, 2019, 12:15 PM   #192
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Plates capable of stopping 62gr M855 are described as “Level III+”
I have no idea where you got that misconception. Lvl III stops 5.56mm...

The (+) is simply a rating for soft body armor meaning it provides blunt trauma and stab protection.

The Level III means it stops rifle bullets.

http://www.bulletproofme.com/Ballist...n_Levels.shtml

Quote:
What makes the cartridge obsolete?
It's lack of legality at CQB distances combined with it's inability to penetrate body armor at typical infantry engagement ranges.

Quote:
But none of the bolded ones are m855 or m855a1, why bold those?
Please read. While the body armor is NIJ Level III (means it stops rifle bullets at a minimum of the velocities listed WHICH covers the velocities of M855)

The other bolded IS M855 velocity which you can see is lower than the Level III rating of the AR500 plate.


Quote:
The 5.56×45mm NATO SS109/M855 cartridge (NATO: SS109; U.S.: M855) with standard 62 gr. lead core bullets with steel penetrator will penetrate approximately 38 to 51 cm (15 to 20 in) into soft tissue in ideal circumstances.
https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknF...l#cite_note-17

M8551 does have better penetration but is not a wonder bullet.

It too cannot defeat Level III body armor and still suffers from the lack of lethality at CQB ranges.

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Old September 2, 2019, 12:53 PM   #193
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I misunderstood ss109. It is the bullet in m855 ammunition.
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Old September 2, 2019, 01:05 PM   #194
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Bart is correct that M855 will penetrate the AR500 Armor® Level III Lightweight UHMWPE Body Armor 10" x 12" you linked to upthread. It even says so at the AR500 website: link

AR500 does sell armor that will stop M855 but it isn't the armor you linked.


Level III armor is rated by the NIJ to stop lead core 7.62x51 ball. It's not rated to stop M855 or M855a1. There is no NIJ rating for III+ and the NIJ recommends level IV if M855 is a threat but several manufacturers make what they call level III+ plates.
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Old September 2, 2019, 01:46 PM   #195
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By going into buildings with bad guys and shooting them until they are no longer a threat.
Sorry, I was not as clear as I could have been. The source of the data was evident from the post I responded to.

What I'm interested in is how the number (8 per target) was calculated. There are any number of ways to calculate rounds expended per target down. For example, there was a widely quoted statistic from the Vietnam war suggesting that there were something like 100,000 small arms rounds fired for every enemy kill. Obviously that wasn't the number of COM hits on each target down.

So how was the 8 per target statistic calculated? Was it calculated by counting total rounds fired throughout a mission divided by targets down, was it the average of the number of COM hits required to down a target, or was there some other method used?

It would also be interesting to know if the rounds were usually fired semi-automatic or in fully automatic mode since that could have a bearing on the overall situation.
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Old September 2, 2019, 02:29 PM   #196
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I think it is probable and possible to fire 8 rounds or more into an enemy combatant, or other human threat in the time its takes them to die. It happens frequently with a number of different types of ammunition... especially with penetrating ammunition. That’s why people and agencies with the freedom to choose ammo steer clear of penetrating bullets for the most part. The army chooses what it feels it needs most in a cartridge which is penetration. Considering cover and potential body armor, penetration can still kill in more situations than expanding and fragmenting rounds.

With the new ammunition, you can assume that it may still take more than one shot before a threat is stopped in a small room, but if they get the 6.8 up to 5.56 velocities, the wounds will be pretty nasty.
From all the articles referenced here and other places, seems like the army is more concerned with increasing the effectiveness in distance and against body armor and not so much with extremely close quarters.

I’d have low confidence using green tip at close quarters on unarmored threats, as davidsog’s own experience illustrates.
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Old September 2, 2019, 02:32 PM   #197
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I haven't disputed the statistic; I'm trying to get more information about it so as to be able to interpret it properly.
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Old September 2, 2019, 03:02 PM   #198
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No, I was only illustrating that the experience davidsog had with green tip may not be unique to 5.56.
But I can assume that an average could mean that some kills were lower number of hits and some had more than 8 hits... that’s assuming hits only and not misses.

But one person’s experience is anecdotal evidence and not a statistic. Either way, I am also unsure of the method of determining the statistic also, as the methodology has yet to be explained.
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Old September 2, 2019, 05:06 PM   #199
Bartholomew Roberts
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Originally Posted by davidsog
The (+) is simply a rating for soft body armor meaning it provides blunt trauma and stab protection.

The Level III means it stops rifle bullets.
You are confused. NIJ Level III certified 0101.06 standard body armor is only tested using 147gr M80 ammo at 2,780fps. That’s the only round it needs to stop to be rated “Level III” under the 0101.06 standard. The plates you linked to have also been “special threat” certified for M193 and 7.62x39 ball.

These 0101.06 certification standards are described here:
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf

You’ll notice there is no such thing as an NIJ Level III+ certification nor any “+” certification for soft body armor (or hard body armor). That’s just branding and marketing; and it means whatever the manufacturer says it means. AR500 uses the term “Level III+” to describe body armor that is special threat certified to stop 62gr M855 but doesn’t pass the level IV test.

Under the proposed 0101.07 standard, NIJ RF2 is the standard that defeats M855/SS109 at 3,100fps. There is currently no proposed standard for body armor that defeats M855A1.

https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/...r-nij-standard

Body armor that meets the 0101.06 NIJ Level III standard may stop 5.56. It may not - something that the manufacturer is pointing out to you when he tells you the plates are special threat certified for M193.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidsog
(M855A1) too cannot defeat Level III body armor and still suffers from the lack of lethality at CQB ranges.
M855A1 defeating AR500 Level III+ body armor special threat certified to stop M855: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jET4I6oySsw
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e0gxeSpjdSk

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; September 2, 2019 at 05:34 PM.
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Old September 2, 2019, 05:15 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by JohnKSa
was it the average of the number of COM hits required to down a target
And how was average number of COM hits required per target even counted? Do you have 10 clickers on molle attachments and you click the target-appropriate clicker with your offhand each time you visually see a COM hit?

I knew we had some talented soldiers in the Army. I didn’t realize they were also actuarial commandos on top of being first-rate gunfighters.
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