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Old August 30, 2019, 04:42 AM   #151
Bartholomew Roberts
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Speaking of which, AAI/Textron, General Dynamics, and SIG Sauer have been picked to go forward on NGSW: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/.../ngsw-program/
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Old August 30, 2019, 05:56 AM   #152
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The MARS rifle did look interesting. When was the last time the US adopted an automatic weapon with the long recoil system? The Chauchat?
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Old August 30, 2019, 12:56 PM   #153
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When was the last time the US adopted an automatic weapon with the long recoil system? The Chauchat?
I'll have to check (later) but I think it might have been the Johnson LMG...
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Old August 30, 2019, 03:21 PM   #154
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Video of Textron’s entry firing a 6.8 cased telescoped projectile, Apparently, Textron will be teaming up with H&K as well.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=O7QqppSKGzw

Textron is one of the winners announced yesterday, though not sure if their entry still looks like this.
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Old August 30, 2019, 05:03 PM   #155
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You know this stuff does not exist!! Unicorns and Fairy-dust, I tell you!!!
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Old August 30, 2019, 05:11 PM   #156
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Sure, it exists just like SPIW, ACR, XM8, XM25, ICSR, and LSAT exist(ed).

And I might add, we at least have an idea of how well some of those met or failed to meet threshhold and objective requirements. Currently, there is no such information available for any of the NGSW contenders.

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; August 30, 2019 at 05:32 PM.
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Old August 30, 2019, 05:59 PM   #157
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The final product does not exist yet. There are prototypes, However.

Last edited by JohnKSa; August 30, 2019 at 07:47 PM. Reason: Cleanup.
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Old August 30, 2019, 07:50 PM   #158
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Little know factoid.... the XM8 not only exist's but is in the arms rooms of some units in the US Army. Politics killed the XM8 as a rifle the Army did not really need at the time.

The G36 shares almost all the steel components with the XM8, btw. The entire Bundeswehr used it. The XM8 is simply a G36 with different furniture. Malaysia uses them too.

The XM25 was technology the Political Army wanted but none of the warfighters needed. The Rangers killed the program the moment they got their hands on it. Simply put, A 40mm airburst was much more effective or airburst a Carl Gustav round while the XM25 was heavy and limited in its round capacity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDEV07ZzQjY

Politics is a motivator but Obsolescence is a much more powerful motivator.

None of those programs were cancelled leaving the Army in Obsolescence. 5.56mm is obsolete on the modern battlefield and that is just the hard truth.

Last edited by davidsog; August 30, 2019 at 07:56 PM. Reason: Everyone else was doin' it
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Old August 30, 2019, 09:10 PM   #159
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If 5.56 is obsolete, why are they only proposing to buy 86,000 some odd rifles? Last time I looked, just active duty Army was around 476k troops not including reserve or National Guard components. 86,000 rifles is what? 3 infantry divisions, assuming no reserve supplies?

FYI: The G36 is being replaced by H&K’s piston AR.
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Old August 30, 2019, 10:09 PM   #160
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The G36 is being replaced. The Bundeswehr used a light barrel variant which did not turn out to be so good in sustained firefights.

Over a million folks in uniform and you guys think a paltry 167,000 M4's over a five year spread is a big deal?

33,000 rifles a year?????

That will get the service thru to 2022 and the transition phase to 6.8mm....

IF they conserve. If anything that is what is called in the Intelligence world "an indicator" and not a good one for those banking on the service keeping 5.56mm M4's around.

That is about it.

Last edited by davidsog; August 30, 2019 at 10:18 PM.
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Old August 30, 2019, 10:23 PM   #161
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Quote:
If 5.56 is obsolete,
It is obsolete according to experience on the battlefield and the Small Arms Survey.

Quote:
The service has been employing its standard-issue M4 carbine since the 1960s while steadily making improvements to the system over time. But now, the rifle’s 5.56 mm round may not be able to penetrate enemies’ newly developed body armor, officials said.

During a Senate Armed Services airland subcommittee hearing last year, Sen. Tom Cotton, R-Ark., noted that “everyone from Russia and China, to Hezbollah” and the Islamic State is employing advanced armor that “risks making the 5.56 round essentially obsolete.”
https://www.nationaldefensemagazine....at-rifles-ammo

Quote:
“Right now, the feedback looks like we are going to a 6.8 mm round,” Army Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Milley said recently.

The service has a list of its top six modernization priorities and “soldier lethality” is one of the items. The most high-profile program in that category is the squad automatic rifle. Army Secretary Mark Esper at the Association of the United States Army annual conference — while promising the service is speeding up the way it does acquisition — singled out the program as one that would see prototypes in the near future.

“The bottom line is that we are committed to a new rifle,” Milley told reporters.
https://www.nationaldefensemagazine....-caliber-round
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Old August 30, 2019, 10:44 PM   #162
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Did you not understand the question? Because you didn’t answer it and you just posted the same thing you’ve already posted in this thread - and it didn’t address any of the concerns raised the last time you posted it either.

And by the way “risks making the 5.56 round essentially obsolete” is not the same thing as “5.56 is obsolete.” The first is a hypothetical. The second is an objective statement you are unable to support with fact.
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Old August 30, 2019, 11:09 PM   #163
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“...would see prototypes in the near future.” Prototypes does not equal a weapon ready for issue: might be close to it, or it could be just the first steps of a long journey. Nothing in the quotes indicate a final product or is there any confirmation of 5.56 obsolescence; all that’s stated on the subject is opinion, and it’s written in a manner that the reader can understand as opinion.
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Old August 30, 2019, 11:42 PM   #164
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And oddity of oddities, Russia and China, two of the countries supposedly fielding body armor that risks making 5.56 obsolete are fielding 5.xx caliber rifles that are very similar to 5.56. As is every single NATO ally. For that matter, even if Gen. Milley can wish this rifle into existence, less than 100,000 soldiers will receive it (again, per Gen. Milley’s own statements) - so the U.S. Army will also continue to use 5.56mm for the majority of its troops.

Strange we have this impending obsolescence of 5.56 that makes this new wonder rifle a necessity; but no other country in the world recognizes this and even the United States doesn’t deem the wonder rifle a necessity for all combat troops.

I mean just looking at active divisions, off the top of my head you have the 82nd, the 101st, the Big Red One, and Third Infantry. 86,000 rifles isn’t going to outfit the TO&E of even those four units, let alone infantry in other units. And that’s assuming you deploy every rifle you buy with none sitting in the armory to handle wear & tear.
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Old August 31, 2019, 09:21 AM   #165
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Quote:
Did you not understand the question? Because you didn’t answer it and you just posted the same thing you’ve already posted in this thread - and it didn’t address any of the concerns raised the last time you posted it either.

And by the way “risks making the 5.56 round essentially obsolete” is not the same thing as “5.56 is obsolete.” The first is a hypothetical. The second is an objective statement you are unable to support with fact.
I understood the question obviously....

167000 rifles for the Department of Defense is not sustenance level for more than a couple of years. End of Story.

Quote:
Prototypes does not equal a weapon ready for issue:
There are several stages of prototyping in engineering. The prototyping you are thinking of ends in 2021.

Quote:
As is every single NATO ally. For that matter, even if Gen. Milley can wish this rifle into existence, less than 100,000 soldiers will receive it (again, per Gen. Milley’s own statements) - so the U.S. Army will also continue to use 5.56mm for the majority of its troops.
Miley does not have to wish anything into existence nor is this his project, the rifles are here and the US Army has moved past the first stage well into the program leading to adoption. This project is a warfighter initiated project and is the culmination of a grass roots effort that began with George Bush initiative to link Operators with Engineers/Scientist.


Just like anything....SOCOM and the US Army's First Responders will be outfitted first. They will also be the ones who conduct the Iterative prototyping. That stage can last up to 8 years but can also be finished at anytime sooner.

It also allows the logistics and manufacturer to gain experience as well.

5.56mm is obsolete and is being phased out.

It will continue to serve until replaced just like the Brewster Buffalo, Grant Tank, S-Boats, and any other piece of obsolete equipment forced into wartime service by necessity of logistics.

Last edited by davidsog; August 31, 2019 at 09:27 AM.
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Old August 31, 2019, 09:54 AM   #166
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davidsog, we have been through this song and dance before. Until the new rifle is actually here, it is nothing but a bunch more obsolete saber rattling and chest thumping. That you have some new quotes doesn't change the fact that every time the military starts to go through this mess, it falters. Eventually, the 5.56 will be replaced, no doubt, but whether or not it is this time and if this time (if it occurs) is even remotely on time is just something for the future. There is continually big talk about how these things are supposed to happen, but like crying WOLF, these things rarely come to positive fruition. The proof is in the pudding, not in all the obsolete saber rattling.
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Old August 31, 2019, 10:39 AM   #167
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This article says 250,000 weapons..

The Army says it has the option to make a selection during the first 27-month prototype phase and award a final contract. The service says it wants to buy up to 250,000 weapons — a combination of rifles and automatic rifles — and up to 150 million rounds of the new 6.8mm ammunition.

https://www.armytimes.com/off-duty/g...ration-weapon/
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Old August 31, 2019, 10:56 AM   #168
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Consistency in these media articles is hard to find, they all have different numbers and timelines. What can be gleaned from the articles, the Army intends to field a new rifle, a new squad machine gun, the bullet diameter will be 6.8mm, there are three companies with prototypes and the program is intended on drastically increasing the lethality of ground troops. Good news for the most lethal army in the world.

But, what we don’t know is if this program will be successful or will it fail ... as many trials do fail. Getting closer, but not a done deal. The reason we have trials is because is to see what fails. We all know that government always gets it right. The government always meets timelines. The same government that adopted the most substandard individual weapon in history and has allowed it to remain in inventory for several decades.

Last edited by rickyrick; August 31, 2019 at 11:04 AM.
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Old August 31, 2019, 02:42 PM   #169
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Quote:
but a bunch more obsolete saber rattling
Maybe to you but having experienced the obsolescence of 5.56mm first hand as well as see the beginning of the program to change it...

It is a long way from just saber rattling and there is a real desire from the warfighter to get rid of 5.56mm in the US Army and the powers that be....
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Old August 31, 2019, 03:52 PM   #170
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After reading all this I can only say one thing with certainty--there's money to be made on betting on one's belief.
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Old August 31, 2019, 04:13 PM   #171
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Maybe obsolete isn’t the correct term; my perception of the term is that it means no longer in current use, not available to anymore.
Better terms:
Ineffective
Underpowered
Poor performance
Less than optimal
Etc

There’s electric cars around and the technology is becoming available but the gasoline car is far from being obsolete.


The current ammunition is still 5.56, they are working on something better, but it hasn’t been replaced yet, so it it’s a far stretch to say it’s obsolete yet. In 2021, 2022 or 2023... maybe. If these trials fail, the 5.56 will still be around.
When the new cartridge and weapon becomes a reality, you could say it’s becoming obsolete on day one, because at some point in the future it will be replaced.
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Old August 31, 2019, 11:46 PM   #172
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It's about time!! Much better round. And then we should also go with a piston upper on all the M16/M4's. Replace all the DSI uppers with pistons uppers in 6.8. I would also like to see the M17 in 357sig not 9mm. I know that's not going to happen.
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Old September 1, 2019, 01:05 AM   #173
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I mean just looking at active divisions, off the top of my head you have the 82nd, the 101st, the Big Red One, and Third Infantry. 86,000 rifles isn’t going to outfit the TO&E of even those four units,
Just how big are those divisions??

I remember Army divisions being about 10,000 men, and the first internet source I looked at said 10-16,000, so, four divisions, even at 16,000, that is 64,000, and every single one of them doesn't get a rifle, so, I think 86,000 rifles would pretty well cover them, though they'd probably be happy with a larger reserve...

We have some statements from some brass saying where they want to go, and that tests & trials are underway.

Until we get a statement about where we have gone next, its all just chasing our tails around smoke and mirrors.
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Old September 1, 2019, 03:19 PM   #174
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You’re correct that modern infantry divisions are smaller than I’d figured; but the point remains that lots of U.S. soldiers in direct combat jobs will still be armed with 5.56 whether they purchase 86,000, 100,000, or 250,000. And we’re still a long way off from making even a SCAR-level purchase of any rifle.

Heck, right now the cartridge isn’t even decided. It could be a cased, telescoped cartridge; a hybrid steel, brass case; an LSAT-style caseless round.

It took from 2004 (initial solicitation) to 2009 (75th Rangers get 600 rifles) for SCAR. Now we’re going to introduce revolutionary technology on optics, powered rail, cartridge, barrel life, recoil management, and heat management - and we’ll do it in two years with an Army wide roll out of tens of thousands of rifles? Color me skeptical.
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Old September 1, 2019, 03:34 PM   #175
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We saw M14's used for long after they were phased out as well as every other rifle in the History of the US Army during a transition period. There will be an overlap where both the new 6.8mm weapons and 5.56mm will be service. The 5.56mm going to the support units with those most likely to encounter the enemy on the battlefield having priority for the new 6.8mm. That does not mean the US Army is holding onto 5.56mm because it is great. Just like every other war, some folks had to soldier on with less than steller gear.

Quote:
Army wants its Next Generation rifle ASAP, but it still has to buy a bunch of M4s to keep soldiers shooting
Quote:
The timeline is tight, by weapons development standards, as the Army expects the companies to have a mature weapon, possibly ready for fielding, in just over two years, or late 2021, Lt. Col. Jason Bohannon, head of PEO Soldier, Crew Served Weapons, told Military Times in January.
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-...iers-shooting/
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