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Old February 3, 2018, 07:05 PM   #1
Yosemite Steve
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Yosemite Steve's Savage 110 Issues :P

I figured it might be better to just make a thread in here called this. I know not the best was to organize all of the history of what has been said and done. I will just add to this as we go. I really feel like there is much to be learned by my dilemmas!

The gun being discussed is an 80's Savage 110CL series J 30-06

All of this began at Poochy Primershttps://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=592434.
The first symptom was that my primers were sticking out. After ruling out headspace, pressures and bad brass 243winxp suggested checking the bolt face for concavity and it was so. The center of the bolt face was last measured at .004576" deeper than the edge.

I ordered a new bolt head, firing pin, spring and retainer pin.

The bolt head did not come with an alignment slot as the original had so I took it to the gunsmith to have it machined. The gunsmith inspected the gun and told me it needed cleaning very badly. When I finally got it back he said that the new bolt head shortened my chamber such that it would not close on a go gauge. He said that I was lucky because it was only slightly short and I would be able to get more life out of my tighter brass and shoot more accurately. He suggested a small base die for resizing.

I asked him to run the barrel out to make the gun chamber the correct length and he did that, but said he hated to let it leave his shop with the sights off to the side and that, if it were his, he would try what he had suggested. So I went along. I noticd that the small bevels that were cut on the corners of the lugs on the old bolt head were not cut in the new one and he said they were not needed.

After doing some reading I decided to try taking some thickness off of my shell holder to shorten the brass without reducing the diameter like a SB die would do. It seemed like a simple enough fix. The gunsmith agreed that it should work and shell holders are cheaper than dies.

I loaded up some rounds .001" shorter than feel on the bolt handle with some IMR 4350 loaded to 53 grains behind 180 SST's just at the lands. The ammo was chrono'd at 2611 fps. The primer was super flat and the bolt handle was very stiff to lift and eject being the worst high pressure signs I have ever had. At first I suspected the powder and then the bullets being on the lands. Afyer doing some checking on Quickload my conclusion is that the pressure spike was due to the long deating depth to the lands and a reduced case and chamber volume.


I have dismantled the bolt only to find that the alignment slot was not adequately reamed and the bolt head was forced into the bolt leaving enough side pressure to keep one side of the lug from mating to it's surface. The bevels that were not cut out did not allow the bolt lugs to rest into their broken in surface on the receiver face. This was suspected and pointed out by HiBC. I machined the bevels into the lugs as they were on the old bolt and was able to chamber a factory round with almost no feel where before it would only close with a heavy push on the bolt.

I have decided to demand a refund for the fee for machining the bolt head and time for running the barrel out and back in again totaling $95. I hope that another gunsmith might be willing to ream it and put a clean face on my receiver and get it to spec for near that.

The name of the shop is Bass's Gun Rack. Don't take your gun to Bass!

Here is my latest:

I have decided to cut the face of my new bolt head down to correct the headspace. It was suggested before, but I thought it would leave too much slop in the extractor. It does not. Hats off to those who suggested it. What a simple fix.

Last edited by Yosemite Steve; February 7, 2018 at 08:25 AM.
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Old February 3, 2018, 08:31 PM   #2
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Should be .055" to .065". .088" is edging towards pierced primers.
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Old February 3, 2018, 09:08 PM   #3
Yosemite Steve
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Ok. That is what I wanted to verify. Thanks.
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Old February 4, 2018, 02:47 PM   #4
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I went to the range and duplicated the velocity while on the lands with the old bolt head and firing pin. Same exact charge of 53 grains but .008" longer COL to meet the lands. Every round had a very light bolt resistance on the lift after firing but not a hard lift. The primers were all fine just slightly flat with most of the bevel showing.

Here are the numbers.
IMR 4350
Shortened case with new bolt face - Nosler Brass
Brass volume 69.9 grains H20 before firing 71.2 grains h20 after firing and trimming to unfired length
3.310 COL at lands
53 Grains - 2611 fps - primer flowing into bevels of pocket - very stiff bolt lift

Old bolt face
Original SAAMI sized brass 68.0 grains H20 unfired - R P Brass
68.9 gr. after firing and trimming back to length.
3.310 COL .008" off lands
IMR 4350
grains - fps
50.0 - 2411
50.5 - 2422
51.0 - 2482
52.0 - 2542
52.5 - 2558
53.0 - 2612
All primers ok - light bolt lift

3.318 COL touching lands
50.0 - 2398
50.5 - 2420
51.0 - 2447
51.5 - 2509
52.0 - 2552
52.5 - 2536
53.0 - 2551
All primers ok - light bolt lift

Last edited by Yosemite Steve; February 7, 2018 at 09:45 PM. Reason: Brass lots were different
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Old February 4, 2018, 06:03 PM   #5
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How else would you have learned so much?
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Old February 4, 2018, 06:28 PM   #6
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Did you pay the gunsmith with a credit card? If he denies a refund, you can dispute the charge through them.

I've been following these posts for a little while now and Ia hopeful you find a good resolution.
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Old February 4, 2018, 06:28 PM   #7
Yosemite Steve
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Quote:
How else would you have learned so much?
Glad I didn't get hurt.

Are you seeing what I'm seeing with regards to case volume?

In a tighter chamber I had a GREATER volume increase after firing via high pressure in the shortened chamber and brass.
The only thing I can figure is that the chamber expanded (scary) and the brass only retracted to a tight fit... hence the stiff bolt lift.

The only way to complete this experiment is to put the new bolt head back now that the bevels were cut on the lugs and fire the 50 grain load and see what it does.

HiBC I would like to know your idea on this and an explanation of your theory about the set back. I DO NOT want to repeat the high pressure that I got before. I am tempted to reduce the charge another grain or two but I don't want to cause a detonation either.

READ THIS: The face of the new bolt is now .0015" deeper at it's center than it was! Is it possible that Savage was making these out of mild steel?

Shooter's forum thread about the concave bolt face:
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...-head.3161264/

Midway - read the description of the item. Sounds like Savage bolt heads like to dish! :
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...ace-right-hand

Last edited by Yosemite Steve; February 4, 2018 at 06:35 PM.
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Old February 4, 2018, 06:38 PM   #8
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I paid cash.

I will present my case. If he denies a refund or any responsibility it will cost him. I know people at about every sporting goods store and ammo shop. Word will get out.
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Old February 4, 2018, 07:01 PM   #9
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Interesting. I.ve never owned a Savage rifle .A lot of folks like them and they have a rep for accuracy.
Seems like the bolt faces have enough of a problem PTG found a market for a product.
PTG makes good reamers.I've bought some.

Unless I'm reading you wrong,you have a rifle that's working ,that you can use.
I'd think about the market value before I put a lot more money in it.

Its a 30 year old rifle.You can get your venison.

Now,if you want to keep thinking real hard and solving problems and testing things...That's up to you. It might cost money after a while.
If you run over a cat,its one thing. If you back up and run over it again,it just gets thinner.

You already shortened your firing pin.Might not work with the old bolt head.

I can't tell you much about your pressure theories.One good idea is to only have one variable you are testing.Otherwise jumping to wrong conclusions is likely.
Its up to you to decide what you will gain from your efforts.
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Old February 4, 2018, 07:38 PM   #10
Yosemite Steve
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Each bolt head has it's own firing pin. The post 1999 savage 110s have a smaller shaft on the firing pin. It takes me 10 minutes at most to switch the pin assemblies and adjust the protrusions. I can't beleive the gunsmith left the firing pin at .088. Glad it didn't puncture at that pressure. I had one puncture a while back that imbedded a spec of something in my cheek.

Last edited by Yosemite Steve; February 4, 2018 at 08:50 PM.
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Old February 4, 2018, 08:56 PM   #11
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Quote:
I'd think about the market value before I put a lot more money in it.
This gun is very valuable to me. My dad gave it to me when I got my hunting license.

I would NEVER sell this gun. I am considering getting a take off barrel. I found an identical take off for $85 that has not been fired. How much would a gunsmith charge to polish the receiver and properly install a new barrel if I brought it in with the stock off and the new bolt assembly ready?
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Old February 5, 2018, 10:11 AM   #12
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Quote:
Because I am suspicious of my gunsmith's abilities I decided to measure my firing pin protrusion. I measured three times and I get .088 (+or- .001).

Is that right? I have seen posts that say the factory setting is .055
I furnished you a link; the writer had a little problem with technical writing. I believe it was HiBC that said he was not that familiar with the Savage and knew nothing about a slot. The link I furnished claimed the slot was a screw as in a screw with a slot and then you went to grinding on it.

You claimed the neck locked the bullet and then jammed when it stretched, I said that was impossible, for one you claimed you trimmed the case to 2.480, My 30/06 cases measure 2.494", that is .014" shorter than yours cases; back to impossible. The case has two length, one length is measured from the datum to the case head, the other is from the datum to the end of the neck. Every reloader understands that, they are all experts on the Wilson case gage. And then there is distance and speed, If that bullet does not get out of the way you will render your rifle scrap.

Poochy? primers. If the primer was protruding the case did not form to the chamber. In my opinion it took you too long to clean up your threads,

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Old February 5, 2018, 02:07 PM   #13
Yosemite Steve
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I was wrong about the neck hitting the throat I agree. 2.480 is shorter than 2.494. The total length of the case did indeed increase to 2.490. I know now that the pressure spike was a combination of case volume, available chamber volume and the bullet resting on the lands. The IMR4350 is a bit more sensitive to pressures. The poochy primers are a result of .0045 concavity on the face of the bolt. I and most everyone here could give two craps about datums and your exclusive rights to them.

Last edited by Yosemite Steve; February 5, 2018 at 03:13 PM.
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Old February 6, 2018, 09:04 AM   #14
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Turning tha face down .006" put the headspace at passing a go but not with .003" masking tape on it.
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Old February 6, 2018, 03:53 PM   #15
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Steve,
Yes the bolt heads on Savages are known for that.
Hence why PTG sells so many of theirs. I would highly recommend them.
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Old February 6, 2018, 04:08 PM   #16
Yosemite Steve
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I have done well with them at or close to the lands in my Savage in the past. It may be from a worn throat... I can't say. I am going to do some more testing again soon to find my happy seating depth. The gun shoots 2 MOA on most loads until I find a sweet spot. I could use coaching on the ladder process for depth adjustment. It's hard for me to trust single shots for finding nodes when considering randomness. I wonder if velocity nodes work to find seating depths or if the depth is just tweaking velocity enough to find a node that way. There are so many differing oppinions making it hard learn by reading. It would seem that if a seating depth sweet spot is absolute for a given bulley that one should start there. My Enfield likes .030 out for the 180SST. When I last finished the Superformance work with the Savage it liked .010 off the lands.
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Old February 6, 2018, 09:29 PM   #17
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Ladder test gives you powder charge, which controls your vertical spread.

Seating depth gives the bullet the jump or lack thereof that it likes for group size.

On the Savage you can also tune the action screws. There is an article on it on www.accurateshooter.com
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Old February 6, 2018, 10:11 PM   #18
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Cool article. I figured out my own way to do that theoretically... Remember my "boing" post? Since then I came up with a theory... the rifle likes a certain tune or note (musically). If one takes the stock off the gun and taps it with a hard rubber mallet it always plays the same note. Get you guitar and tune a string to that note... if you have an ear like me you can get really close. Then put your stock back on and tighten the screws. Then... git yur guitar and play that string and torque your gun to play that note again. Oingo boingo! Once I get my next load close I want to try this and see what happens.
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Old February 7, 2018, 01:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
The bolt head did not come with an alignment slot as the original had so I took it to the gunsmith to have it machined. The gunsmith inspected the gun and told me it needed cleaning very badly. When I finally got it back he said that the new bolt head shortened my chamber such that it would not close on a go gauge.
Quote:
I asked him to run the barrel out to make the gun chamber the correct length and he did that, but said he hated to let it leave his shop with the sights off to the side and that, if it were his, he would try what he had suggested.
I'm lost on all this...
If the headspace is inadequate after changing the bolthead, run a finish reamer in to deepen the chamber- or true the boltface if it's minimal.
Whenever I work on a Savage, I always use a carbide boltface truing cutter to cut the face perpendicular to the receiver threads. Easy enough to remove additional material to gain a few thou if that were the objective.

What is meant by "sights off to the side"???
Unless the chamber were cut too deeply by mistake, it's not going to affect the barrel timing. It will end up exactly where it was prior- but with the correct depth chamber instead of having inadequate headspace.
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Old February 7, 2018, 02:12 PM   #20
Yosemite Steve
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The gunsmith, if that's what it's called, is fired. He has a reamer, but decided to take me on a goose chase instead of doing the job right.
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Old February 7, 2018, 05:04 PM   #21
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Not having Saami minimum headspace isn't an issue for you now because you're handloading- and reducing datum length below spec to work with the short headspace available.

Not a problem necessarily, as long as you don't plan on selling the rifle or being assured any factory ammo will run in it. But, that's the limitation currently. I'll often use a sized case from customers that handload to set the headspace in lieu of a go gauge, with the above caveat.

Been a long day, but I'm still trying to understand how the shortened case is giving you nearly two full grains more capacity than the "spec" cases, given the shoulder angles are identical. What am I missing here

After re-reading, your OP I'm puzzled by something else.
You said you "ruled out headspace" as an issue related to the primers, I'm assuming you mean excessive as that would be the typical symptom. But- I don't see anywhere where you indicated you were experiencing excessive resistance to CLOSING the bolt on a loaded round in the chamber.

I know you were told that there was inadequate headspace with the new bolthead, but were you unable to chamber the Saami cases, or only able to close the bolt with a lot of resistance?
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Old February 7, 2018, 05:28 PM   #22
Yosemite Steve
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Quote:
You said you "ruled out headspace" as an issue related to the primers, I'm assuming you mean excessive as that would be the typical symptom. But- I don't see anywhere where you indicated you were experiencing excessive resistance to CLOSING the bolt on a loaded round in the chamber.
When I ruled out the headspace was before I tried the new bolt head. After the new bolt head was installed I was able to close on a factory case with a lot (too much force). The headspace was .007" shorter than the original, which would just close on a go. The orinal problem of the primers coming back a bit was due to a concave bolt face.

The fired case volume increase was for sure larger on the shortened cases . My only guess is that the pressure was so great that the chamber expanded and the brass with it, shrinking back to a larger diameter. Extraction was very stiff.

My problem with the shorter cases is that it throws off load minimums and maximums and creates a constant state of work arounds.

Last edited by Yosemite Steve; February 7, 2018 at 09:47 PM. Reason: Wrong about case lots
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Old February 7, 2018, 08:48 PM   #23
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I'm really suspect over the suggestion of an oversize chamber (assuming it wasn't cut oversize originally). Perhaps I missed it, but the explanation of the primer issue was the boltface- not overpressure. And to cause permanent expansion to a chamber- gotta be severe. Rarely heard of...

Simple enough to mike the case head of the fire formed brass and compare to new to check.

In any case, simple enough to deepen your chamber by 7 or 8 thou, if I'm wrong and the chamber has been deformed as you say you're going to have some severely overworked brass leaving it like that.
Just have the smith set back the breech fifty thou, deepen the chamber by the same amount to clean it up. Brand new chamber back to spec, not a costly exercise. JMHO, YMMV
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Old February 7, 2018, 09:30 PM   #24
Yosemite Steve
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Quote:
I'm really suspect over the suggestion of an oversize chamber (assuming it wasn't cut oversize originally). Perhaps I missed it, but the explanation of the primer issue was the boltface- not overpressure. And to cause permanent expansion to a chamber- gotta be severe. Rarely heard of...
I wasn't thinking permanent expansion of the chamber. What I was thinking was that the high pressure round temporarily expanded the chamber as it was fired and when it returned to it's original size the case was overly tight. Because the brass retracts as well the chamber must have expanded when the round was fired. Does that make sense? I did some rechecking and the brass was of a different brand for the two lengths. But... the volume increase was still bigger for the shortened brass.

Last edited by Yosemite Steve; February 7, 2018 at 09:49 PM.
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Old February 7, 2018, 10:24 PM   #25
Yosemite Steve
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Short SAAMI
.470" .468" rim diameter
.338" .337" rear neck
.442" .441" rear shoulder
.453" .450" mid case dia

The Nosler - shortened brass stretched more.

Last edited by Yosemite Steve; February 7, 2018 at 10:30 PM.
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