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Old January 7, 2018, 10:06 AM   #1
Yosemite Steve
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Poochy Primers

An issue I have been having for some time is that my primers from fired rounds stick out slightly. I had taken the gun into a gunsmith to have the headspace checked and he told me it was fine and "pretty tight". The primers seem to stick out about the same no matter what load I'm firing and appear on some factory Federal ammo that was high velocity as well. The factory ammo primers protrude about .003-.005". Is this enough to be worried about? I have some slight stretching towards the head of my brass as well that is not excessive but exists none the less.

My questions are: Is there anything else that could cause this? Is this acceptable? I am hoping that the gunsmith did not charge me for something he did not inspect during his busy season. All of the signs point to excessive head space. I could take it somewhere else but only if there are no answers to this little riddle.
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Old January 7, 2018, 11:39 AM   #2
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What is the rifle and what is the caliber? Are you loading on the high end of the scale? Some actions have more spring to them than others. Did this just start or has it always done this? New rifle, old rifle?
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Old January 7, 2018, 11:39 AM   #3
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Case necks sooty?
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Old January 7, 2018, 11:50 AM   #4
Yosemite Steve
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Quote:
What is the rifle and what is the caliber? Are you loading on the high end of the scale? Some actions have more spring to them than others. Did this just start or has it always done this? New rifle, old rifle?
Savage 100 30-06 30 years old. This has been going on all year. It does not matter weather it is a starting load or max load.

Quote:
Case necks sooty?
On the handloads it varies. On the factory not at all. I feel like annealing would fix this. But on the handloads It ranges from just a bit at the end of the neck to most of the way down the neck. No soot getting to the shoulder.
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Old January 7, 2018, 12:12 PM   #5
tangolima
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It is either excessive head clearance or low pressure. Do factory ammo have same sticking out primers? Any flatened primers?

I am actually a bit skeptical about "pretty tight headspace". "You rifle closes on go-gauge, but doesn't close on the no-go" I will tell my customer.

Even when the rifle has correct headspace, your brass could be sized too short, and hence the excessive head clearance. Using sized brass with masking tape on the head can give you estimate on the head clearance.

Some of your handloads have sooty brass. At least those rounds have too low pressure. Low pressure can make primer stick out.

-TL

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Old January 7, 2018, 12:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
It is either excessive head clearance or low pressure.
Or both.

Quote:
Low pressure can make primer stick out.
....


..... Excess headspace will allow space for the primer to come back .... insufficient pressure to stretch the case head back to the bolt face will leave it sticking out.

Very low pressure will also not expand the the case sufficiently to seal and gas will leak around the case neck .... low pressure with slowish powders will give incomplete burn ...more soot .... sooty necks ...
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Old January 7, 2018, 12:29 PM   #7
Yosemite Steve
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Quote:
It is either excessive head clearance or low pressure. Do factory ammo have same sticking out primers? Any flatened primers?
Yes. Federal high velocity chrongraphed at 2700+ fps. Flattened (somewhat) but primer pocket bevel still visible.

Quote:
Even when the rifle has correct headspace, your brass could be sized too short, and hence the excessive head clearance.
My RCBS sizing die, when pushed to the shell holder, does size them too short. I have been backing my sizing die up to where the bolt has some feel to it and then turning it back down a few thousandths.

Quote:
Some of your handloads have sooty brass. At least those rounds have too low pressure. Low pressure can make primer stick out.
My Federal box ammo was fairly hot and it still did this.
On my handloads I stopped at 2635 fps and they still have the same soot that the starting loads have. It isn't black but it's there.
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Old January 7, 2018, 12:34 PM   #8
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What is getting me is that the Fedral box ammo primers are the same way. But no soot.

I think that the Superformance I am working on might contribute to the soot. It's probably intended to be used at the high end.
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Old January 7, 2018, 12:48 PM   #9
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"...Federal box ammo..." What box? The exact Federal brand matters. The fastest "deer bullet" Federal loads is at 2910 FPS. 2700 FPS is the same velocity as the original .30 M1 ammo. Not unusual. Federal loads a bunch of bullets and bullet weights to 2700 and above.
Were you not having some issues with your calipres? How are you measuring the 3 to 5 thou?
"...RCBS sizing die, when pushed to the shell holder..." You set up the dies so the shell holder just kisses the bottom of the die with the ram all the way up. And lock 'em.
"...feel like annealing would..." No it won't. If you're having sooting issues it's caused by the load being far too light. The case fails to expand correctly and therefore does not seal the chamber properly. Some gas escapes around the case mouth, goes back into the chamber and adheres to the case.
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Old January 7, 2018, 12:49 PM   #10
Don Fischer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite Steve View Post
Savage 100 30-06 30 years old. This has been going on all year. It does not matter weather it is a starting load or max load.



On the handloads it varies. On the factory not at all. I feel like annealing would fix this. But on the handloads It ranges from just a bit at the end of the neck to most of the way down the neck. No soot getting to the shoulder.
Sounds like loose primer pocket's if you reload.
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Old January 7, 2018, 12:57 PM   #11
Yosemite Steve
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Quote:
Sounds like loose primer pocket's if you reload.
Factory loads too...
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Old January 7, 2018, 01:00 PM   #12
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here are pictures of the brass. The two pictures of the brass on their sides is a comparison of loads at starting load and hotter, but not max. The other two pictures show the primers on reloads and factory.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ue05xbos5...vpOUJDA0a?dl=0
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Old January 7, 2018, 01:03 PM   #13
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Max loads will likely reseat those primers flat.

Neck size from them on.

Solved.
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Old January 7, 2018, 01:15 PM   #14
Yosemite Steve
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Quote:
Neck size from them on.
Agreed. I can't help but think I have a headspace issue though. I wonder if the gunsmith got lazy and took my money and fed me a line.
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Old January 7, 2018, 01:46 PM   #15
Don Fischer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosemite Steve View Post
Agreed. I can't help but think I have a headspace issue though. I wonder if the gunsmith got lazy and took my money and fed me a line.
I suppose that could be a head space problem. Easy fix, partial size the case's to fit the chamber. Need to neck size with the FL die,keeping the die short set, size only the neck not quite to the shoulder. Couple rounds fired and the case should no longer chamber in your action. That's when to partial size and make the case fir your chamber. Most people call it bumping the neck.

But a head space problem usually show's up with a head separation ring starting around the case head where it meet's the body.
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Old January 7, 2018, 02:07 PM   #16
Yosemite Steve
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I'm right there with ya, Don. I have done everything but get the headspace professionally rechecked. The gunsmith who checked it is the one who taught me about "bumping the neck". I don't have my neck sizing die yet but I have been using the full sizing die to get it as close as I can. It seems like a quick fix to some degree but I would be doing it irregardless if I had a headspace issue or not at this point.
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Old January 7, 2018, 06:29 PM   #17
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Hmm.. You are using hodgedon superperformance. Not familiar with that powder. Is it possible it is too slow burning? You said you were doing 2635 fps -ish. What's the powder charge and bullet weight?

-TL

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Old January 7, 2018, 06:50 PM   #18
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Looks like the burn rate is similar to 4831, much slower than varget. For 150gr bullet (I assume that what you have), hodgedon starts at 60gr and 2850fps. I think it is a bit too slow for 30-06. Your sticking out primers are most likely caused by the low pressure.

-TL

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Old January 7, 2018, 06:57 PM   #19
243winxb
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Concave bolt face ?
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Old January 7, 2018, 06:58 PM   #20
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Quote:
Looks like the burn rate is similar to 4831, much slower than varget. For 150gr bullet (I assume that what you have), hodgedon starts at 60gr and 2850fps.
From his other thread, he's using 180's, IIRC.
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Old January 7, 2018, 07:02 PM   #21
Yosemite Steve
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Quote:
Looks like the burn rate is similar to 4831, much slower than varget. For 150gr bullet (I assume that what you have), hodgedon starts at 60gr and 2850fps. I think it is a bit too slow for 30-06. Your sticking out primers are most likely caused by the low pressure.
Back from the range... and delighted.

I was shooting 180 grain bullets.
It looks like I had a couple things going on but as for this post on the primers. They are still pooched at the max load for this powder and bullet at 2847 fps average. This powder does what it advertised. But the primers were not from too low of pressure. I will be updating a separate post about the powder on my findings. This powder was designed to run at high pressures for sure!
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Old January 7, 2018, 07:03 PM   #22
Yosemite Steve
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Concave bolt face ?
Is that a thing?
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Old January 7, 2018, 07:07 PM   #23
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I've never heard of such a thing.
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Old January 7, 2018, 08:17 PM   #24
Yosemite Steve
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In case you aren't already reading it, here is my results from today at the range: https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...62#post6558262
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Old January 7, 2018, 09:00 PM   #25
Yosemite Steve
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Quote:
Concave bolt face ?
243Winxb wins! It was the bolt face!

the center of the bolt face is .005 deepr than the edge of the face!

Thank you!

Last edited by Yosemite Steve; January 7, 2018 at 09:44 PM.
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