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Old December 29, 2019, 04:27 PM   #1
Bartholomew Roberts
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A Mass Shooting That Didn’t Happen Today

A man walked into a Fort Worth church with a shotgun and began shooting people. He was immediately killed by another church member (a retired FBI agent) carrying a pistol.

Aside from being an example of why people carry, the incident also highlights the statistics of how these are counted, Because only three people were shot, this doesn’t meet the definition of a mass shooting. So, because the shooting was promptly stopped by an armed citizen, gun control advocates won’t ever see it as a “mass shooting stopped by concealed carry.”

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2019/12/29/...lement-church/

Edited to add: unedited surveillance video of the incident
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/vi...ooded-shooter/

It looks like one of the initial victims may have tried to draw a weapon also. Definitely more than one armed citizen present. After the assailant is shot, you can see at least five members pull out pistols.

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; December 29, 2019 at 05:13 PM.
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Old December 29, 2019, 05:17 PM   #2
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I predict this will be out of the news by tomorrow. Fox might keep it alive for an extra day. But this just doesn't help the left and their agenda.

Looks like they removed the video from the site.
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Old December 29, 2019, 05:43 PM   #3
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Looks like they removed the video from the site.
Still loading and working for me. I even cleared my browser cache and reloaded it. Not sure why it isn’t working for you; but some good lessons there.

Ah, reading through the comments it looks like some of the previous video hosting sites deleted the link so they keep having to update the URL.

Last edited by Bartholomew Roberts; December 29, 2019 at 05:49 PM.
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Old December 29, 2019, 06:34 PM   #4
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A friend who is on his church's security team gave me some insight he picked up through the grapevine. At least one of the two church members shot was a member of the church's security team. Watching the video again after I knew this, it appears to me that the first victim had drawn a handgun from a behind-the-back position and was in the act of bringing it to bear on the shooter when the shooter cut loose. Then the second victim (the guy standing in the corner) was shot. I couldn't tell if he was reaching for a gun or not -- possibly.

Someone commented that several parishioners were carrying. From what my friend told me (again, second-hand or third-hand information), those were all members of the church's armed security team. The FBI guy who took the shooter down was poised and ready to go because the security team had already flagged the guy as suspicious, which is why there were several members of the team in or near that corner of the church.
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Old December 29, 2019, 11:21 PM   #5
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retired FBI guy on the security team? Good choice. Other people with some degree of training, also good choice.

Jimmy, you're packing your pistol here every Sunday anyway, sign this here form and you're part of our security force...

Not the worst possible choice, either.
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Old December 29, 2019, 11:43 PM   #6
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Another link to unedited video:

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=a7Egb_1577654583

The retired FBI agent undoubtedly saved many lives with his quick action and excellent aim.
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Old December 30, 2019, 12:54 AM   #7
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There were SEVERAL folk in the church that drew guns and in the confusion they all started shooting each other...OH WAIT---THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN LIKE I'VE ALWAYS BEEN TOLD IT WOULD INEVITABLY HAPPEN.

P.S. Thanks staff member JohnKSa for providing a written description for those that can't get at the video.
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Old December 30, 2019, 02:34 AM   #8
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I moved the written description to this thread since it's more related to Tactics and Training.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho....php?p=6767003

I think it's interesting that having an armed security team at a TX church would have been illegal just a few months ago unless all of the armed team members were state-licensed security guards.

Up until the law was changed in the last legislative session, while it was legal to carry in a TX church (assuming it wasn't posted legally to prevent carry) it was not legal to be part of an organized security detail for a church unless you were either unarmed, or were licensed as a security guard by the state.
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Old December 30, 2019, 08:26 AM   #9
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Like I said on the thread in Hogan's alley, Tactics and Training
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=605040

Just glad the church didn't designate their church a 'gun free zone'..wish public schools were the same. Like my grand daughters grade school...VERY 'soft'...

Video still up, BTW.

https://concealednation.org/2019/12/...g/?jwsource=cl
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Old December 30, 2019, 01:55 PM   #10
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Just to clear up information mis-reported by the media, the church member who stopped the gunman was never in the FBI.

His name is Jack Wilson and he was a reserve deputy from 1980-86. He also ran a firearms training academy and range from 1995 until it burned down in 2016 due to an electrical fire. He had tried to rebuild but some local residents opposed it.

He is an armed citizen who quickly identified and eliminated a threat to the congregation.
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Old December 30, 2019, 02:17 PM   #11
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Here's a link about Mr. Wilson.

https://heavy.com/news/2019/12/jack-...tMSCXcKThMZlHU
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Old December 30, 2019, 02:31 PM   #12
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In the video, it appears by the reaction of Kinnunen, that Mr Wilson scored a head shot on Kinnunen.
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Old December 30, 2019, 08:00 PM   #13
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/i-...ylF?li=BBnb7Kz

The security team member did hit the shooter in the head. This article is a good read. Several of the team were all set to "engage" the shooter before he started firing the shotgun, hence the immediate takedown. I got this from MSN so the story is being carried by mainstream media.
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Old December 30, 2019, 08:59 PM   #14
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We don't know if it could have been a mass shooting unless we know how much ammo the guy had. I have not seen any mention of that.
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Old December 30, 2019, 09:00 PM   #15
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The good guy was carrying a Sig 229 in .357 Sig, which is a good round for extended range shooting. This is the issue weapons/caliber of the Secret Service, but am willing to bet they are also being forced to go to the Wonder-9 to placate the girls and girly-men.
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Old December 30, 2019, 10:24 PM   #16
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9mm would have done it. 45 would have also.

Shot placement did the job.

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Old December 31, 2019, 12:53 AM   #17
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On another note, let’s observe that the first person to be killed by the attacker looked right down the barrel of that shotgun and drew his pistol to protect his family and loved ones. As much as I admire Mr. Wilson’s skill in ending this incident. I truly believe that first person needs to be recognized for his bravery,

According to news reports, the two people murdered were Anton “Tony” Wallace and Richard White. I don’t know which of those two first confronted the shooter. Nor do I know whose daughter was wailing for their death. But I think we need to recognize those men for their bravery in a place of love for their fellow man.
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Old December 31, 2019, 01:18 AM   #18
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Quote:
I predict this will be out of the news by tomorrow.
Story is still going strong.

Quote:
There were SEVERAL folk in the church that drew guns and in the confusion they all started shooting each other...OH WAIT---THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN LIKE I'VE ALWAYS BEEN TOLD IT WOULD INEVITABLY HAPPEN.
There were SEVERAL folks in the church that drew guns and killed the attacker...OH WAIT---THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN LIKE I'VE ALWAYS BEEN TOLD IT WOULD INEVITABLY HAPPEN. Aside from the security team, nobody else engaged the shooter. Most didn't draw guns until after the shooting was over, much less attempt to shoot.
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Old December 31, 2019, 02:25 AM   #19
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Richard White was the man who stood up and drew against the shooter. He was the first man shot and was a member of the security team. I certainly commend him for his bravery--drawing while looking at the muzzle of a shotgun took a lot of guts. Unfortunately he had to clear two cover garments to make his draw, and that slowed his draw considerably and perhaps cost him his life. It also appears that he was carrying his gun SOB which may have accounted for why he stood to draw.

From the time he started to take action--started to stand up--until he was shot, about 4 seconds elapsed. He had his gun out, but was shot before he could get it pointed at the shooter.

Mr. White died during transport.

Tony Wallace, as nearly as I can tell, was not a member of the security team. He was a deacon in the church. He was the second man shot and died later in the hospital. Mr. Wallace's daughter can be heard on the video in the immediate aftermath of the shooting and can be seen in the video running to his side after he was shot. It is very sad, but it could have been so much worse.
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Old December 31, 2019, 07:47 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
Story is still going strong.



There were SEVERAL folks in the church that drew guns and killed the attacker...OH WAIT---THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN LIKE I'VE ALWAYS BEEN TOLD IT WOULD INEVITABLY HAPPEN. Aside from the security team, nobody else engaged the shooter. Most didn't draw guns until after the shooting was over, much less attempt to shoot.
Well I'm glad it is still going. Probably cause of the video. Whenever there is a shooting that doesn't fit the narrative of the media, it can sometimes just get ONE day of coverage.

Did anyone watch the Five yesterday? Did you hear Marie Harf insist that this armed security was not the answer to these kind of shootings in churches? She said this one worked out and this story was unique, but in her vast experience (as a propagandist for Obama), she said these usually don't end this way and that she would not want her church to become a shooting gallery and that legislators need to come up with better solutions. I'm not normally shocked by such ignorance, but this wasn't ignorance. What was coming out of her mouth was desperation. They're scared because this video proved them dead wrong about all their brainwashing tactics.

I saw a previous recording of the lunatic like Julian Castro where he was babbling about how armed security is not the answer as well as some other talking heads... and this was in response to the Sutherland Springs church shooting... where they didn't have a team of armed security and 20+ were slaughtered.

These are desperation tactics... like the way they blame Trump for the homelessness crisis and are now blaming Trump for the attacks on the Jews in Monsey, NY.

It would be funny if their ideology wasn't getting people killed every day by depriving them of the survivability instincts and their will and ability to defend themselves.
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Old December 31, 2019, 08:09 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by vkeith View Post
Just to clear up information mis-reported by the media, the church member who stopped the gunman was never in the FBI.

His name is Jack Wilson and he was a reserve deputy from 1980-86. He also ran a firearms training academy and range from 1995 until it burned down in 2016 due to an electrical fire. He had tried to rebuild but some local residents opposed it.

He is an armed citizen who quickly identified and eliminated a threat to the congregation.
Thanks for the clarification, and in the NBC news interview, he stressed that if you have a CCWP, ALWAYS carry that handgun anywhere it’s legal to do so....’you never know when ‘this’ is going to happen’, paraphrasing...
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Old December 31, 2019, 10:17 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by American Man
I saw a previous recording of the lunatic like Julian Castro where he was babbling about how armed security is not the answer as well as some other talking heads... and this was in response to the Sutherland Springs church shooting... where they didn't have a team of armed security and 20+ were slaughtered.
Sutherland Springs saw 26 killed and 24 wounded. White Settlement saw 2 killed. Sutherland Springs lasted eleven minutes, and the assailant fired over 700 rounds. White Settlement last six seconds and the assailant got off two rounds for effect and a third probably by muscle reflex as the fatal shot took him out.

The anti-gun forces can't refute those numbers, so they're scrambling.
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Old December 31, 2019, 10:55 AM   #23
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Well sure, they don’t want to acknowledge it because their version of gun safety is no guns. It is the same reason they won’t protect gun owner privacy when they promote universal background checks. They aren’t interested in any law that doesn’t further confiscation or make it more difficult for peaceable people to own firearms.

They’d rather see that whole church murdered because it is a double-win. Wrongthinking people dead and a new drum to beat to disarm the rest of us. It is time, more like way past time, to acknowledge a vast proportion of our opponents do not disagree with us out of goodwill differences on policy. They disagree with us because they want us dead.
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Old December 31, 2019, 03:43 PM   #24
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It is time, more like way past time, to acknowledge a vast proportion of our opponents do not disagree with us out of goodwill differences on policy. They disagree with us because they want us dead.
I respectfully disagree with that statement. I think that they're misguided and naive, but not actually wishing for our deaths. Sure, there might be a few examples of nutcases who say such things. But they exist on both sides.

The frequency of these events is a relatively new in our culture. Many people are struggling with the concept that you need to have trained and armed civilians in a house of worship and they see the solution in gun control. I don't agree, but that's a far cry from wishing death on others.

I heard a long story about this shooting on NPR yesterday, hardly a conservative source. And they had nothing but good things to say about the outcome and the guards involved.
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Old December 31, 2019, 04:41 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Mainah
The frequency of these events is a relatively new in our culture.
No, it isn’t. It is just being highlighted for the purpose of pushing gun control.

Quote:
I think that they're misguided and naive, but not actually wishing for our deaths.
In any population of people greater than 100, there will be exceptions. Not all of them wish us dead, enough of them do that they are no longer a freakish exception to civility.
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