.44 Spl at .44Mag OAL and a magnum charge in a magnum gun.

Pond, James Pond · November 20, 2020, 07:06 AM

I've just spent a sizeable part of my last two evenings prepping cartridges for a competition this weekend.

I have recently confirmed a low to mid-power charge of 8.5gr N320 under a 200gr LSWC to emulate my .44Spl load with 7.3gr of the same powder under the same bullet.

40.70mm OAL for the mags, 36.80mm OAL for the Specials.

My question is this. If I load my Special cases with the same 8.5gr mag powder charge, and seat the bullets to the same 40.70mm OAL, can I expect similar performance?

The bullet, charge, primer and air would all be the same.

The only variable that I can think of is about 20% less bullet surface in the throat of the case and thus less stiction to overcome on ignition. Enough to make any discernible difference?

The idea is to have the magnum length of the mag cartridges, making for wasier reloads, while still making use of my Special cases.

jetinteriorguy · November 20, 2020, 07:21 AM

As long as you can keep enough tension on the bullet to keep it in place under recoil it shouldn’t be a big enough difference at pistol ranges to matter. If the competition is longer range you may notice some difference, but I’m guessing this isn’t the case since you stated it’s a low to moderate range load.

Pond, James Pond · November 20, 2020, 07:34 AM

You'd be correct!

2m-25m is about the limit.

So if I up the crimp a bit more, perhaps.

But generally, this is good news as it means less faffing about with bullet-seating settings and powder measure settings.

FrankenMauser · November 20, 2020, 11:04 AM

As long as you can crimp adequately, or only load one at a time to prevent crimp jump, it should be fine.
In the past, we've had people argue that .44 Special cases are not drawn the same as .44 Mag. But no one (that I've seen) has been able to provide evidence of such in modern cases, yet.

You'll carbon up the chamber, which might make extraction of .44 Mag cases a little stiff. But it'll work.

Pond, James Pond · November 20, 2020, 11:29 AM

Quote:

As long as you can crimp adequately, or only load one at a time to prevent crimp jump, it should be fine.
In the past, we've had people argue that .44 Special cases are not drawn the same as .44 Mag. But no one (that I've seen) has been able to provide evidence of such in modern cases, yet.

You'll carbon up the chamber, which might make extraction of .44 Mag cases a little stiff. But it'll work.

Then maybe I should keep the specials for practice purposes only... But still good to know it can be done safely.

**Unclenick** · November 20, 2020, 11:39 AM

Elmer Keith developed the 44 Magnum's original loads in large frame 44 Specials. The longer case was designed by Remington to prevent accidentally feeding their heavier loads into lighter frame 44 Specials, like a Charter Bulldog, that would not handle the high pressures. This is why the 44 Magnum COL is no longer than a 44 Special (actually, the SAAMI max COL is -0.005" shorter for the magnum than for the Special). You may have noticed that some 44 bullets have two crimp grooves, with one 0.12" closer to the nose than the other. These double grooves are to get the 44 Mag and 44 Special COLs with the same bullet in both case lengths.

I don't know whether brass has been removed from 44 Special cases to save money since Keith's day or not. The way to check is to take fired cases of each size with the spent primers still in and fill then with water and weigh them before and after filling to get the water weight capacity difference. If it is 4.6 grains or less, you don't have more volume under the bullet in the Special case.

Jim Watson · November 20, 2020, 12:17 PM

It is not likely a dangerous combination in a Magnum gun.

You are going to crimp just wherever your OAL takes you?
What bullet, does it have a crimp groove or grooves?
I am always concerned about getting a good revolver crimp on an ungrooved bullet, although I get by with it for .38 Special.

Pond, James Pond · November 21, 2020, 02:38 AM

Quote:

It is not likely a dangerous combination in a Magnum gun.

You are going to crimp just wherever your OAL takes you?
What bullet, does it have a crimp groove or grooves?
I am always concerned about getting a good revolver crimp on an ungrooved bullet, although I get by with it for .38 Special.

These are LSWC bullets. No crimp grooves at all.

I use the Lee FCD for my crimp step as it is less hassle for me than setting up the bullet seater to crimp as well.

**Aguila Blanca** · November 21, 2020, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pond, James Pond

These are LSWC bullets. No crimp grooves at all.

I use the Lee FCD for my crimp step as it is less hassle for me than setting up the bullet seater to crimp as well.

I'm sure you know this, but if you're going to load both .44 SPL and .44 MAG cases to the same C.O.A.L., you'll have to run them in batches, first one case type and then the other, with a crimp adjustment when you switch case types.

**Unclenick** · November 21, 2020, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pond, James Pond

These are LSWC bullets. No crimp grooves at all.

LSWC's often have crimp grooves either cast in or rolled in. But if you don't have any, I'll guess you have something like the Hornady swaged LSWC with no grooves at all. In that case, the bullet is soft enough that you can crimp into the lead, and as long as the crimp isn't too close to the bullet base, it shouldn't have a significant impact on accuracy. If you have trouble with getting a good grip on the bullet or with the rounds being hard to chamber when your crimp puts a good bite into the bullet, you might look at something like the Redding Profile Crimp Die, which has a taper crimp that terminates in a roll crimp. This way the sides of the case are held firmly against the bullet during application of the roll crimp, maintaining firm side contact to hold the bullet and to prevent the roll-crimping action from bowing the brass under the crimp out away from the bullet and exceeding chamber diameter. Lee's Collet-style crimp die will also form a crimp groove, but it is only available for the magnum cases.

Pond, James Pond · November 22, 2020, 03:32 PM

Quote:

I'm sure you know this, but if you're going to load both .44 SPL and .44 MAG cases to the same C.O.A.L., you'll have to run them in batches, first one case type and then the other, with a crimp adjustment when you switch case types.

Yep. That would be the plan. Thanks all the same!

As for the crimp, I’m inclined to think it worked: not bullets seem to have jumped, although a used s half turn on the FCD so hopefully not to aggressive.

Metal god · November 22, 2020, 05:21 PM

Although , Im not loading anything like the op , I might in the future and I prefer the Lee collet crimp type crimp die for 357 & 44mag . Would the collet crimp die work better or not as well as the FCD when there is no crimp groove ?

Jim Watson · November 22, 2020, 05:51 PM

I did not know they made a collet crimp for straight cases like .357 and .44.
Considering that it is designed to MAKE its own crimp groove, you will just have to try it and see.
I'm ok with the CFC or regular taper crimp if the bullet does not have a groove, but I am not loading for heavy recoil.

Metal god · November 22, 2020, 08:49 PM

Yeah I like the collet type a lot . Also trim length is not as important.

https://leeprecision.com/lee-collet-style-crimp-die/

Quote:

Originally Posted by From link above

No other crimping system can apply as secure a crimp as the Lee collet style Factory Crimp. No crimping groove required in jacketed or cast bullets, the die is so powerful it will form a crimp groove if one is not present.

I never looked at that before and believe it answers my question .

jetinteriorguy · November 23, 2020, 07:41 AM

Yup, no crimp groove necessary. I have even used a pretty stout crimp on Cu coated bullets with no negative affect.

**Unclenick** · November 23, 2020, 04:20 PM

The only problem is, the Lee Collet Style Crimp Die is made only for the 44 Magnum and not for the 44 Special, which would require a shorter collet. Unlike a lot of other loading dies that work with both, the collets are unique to one case length.

Metal god · November 23, 2020, 05:00 PM

Very good point UN so loading as the OP is with the special cases the collet crimp will not work . Although and not saying this as a suggestion per-say but..... you probably could grind the top of a shell holder down to make up the difference???

November 20, 2020, 07:06 AM	#1
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	.44 Spl at .44Mag OAL and a magnum charge in a magnum gun. I've just spent a sizeable part of my last two evenings prepping cartridges for a competition this weekend. I have recently confirmed a low to mid-power charge of 8.5gr N320 under a 200gr LSWC to emulate my .44Spl load with 7.3gr of the same powder under the same bullet. 40.70mm OAL for the mags, 36.80mm OAL for the Specials. My question is this. If I load my Special cases with the same 8.5gr mag powder charge, and seat the bullets to the same 40.70mm OAL, can I expect similar performance? The bullet, charge, primer and air would all be the same. The only variable that I can think of is about 20% less bullet surface in the throat of the case and thus less stiction to overcome on ignition. Enough to make any discernible difference? The idea is to have the magnum length of the mag cartridges, making for wasier reloads, while still making use of my Special cases. __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

November 20, 2020, 07:34 AM	#3
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	You'd be correct! 2m-25m is about the limit. So if I up the crimp a bit more, perhaps. But generally, this is good news as it means less faffing about with bullet-seating settings and powder measure settings. __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

November 20, 2020, 11:04 AM	#4
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	As long as you can crimp adequately, or only load one at a time to prevent crimp jump, it should be fine. In the past, we've had people argue that .44 Special cases are not drawn the same as .44 Mag. But no one (that I've seen) has been able to provide evidence of such in modern cases, yet. You'll carbon up the chamber, which might make extraction of .44 Mag cases a little stiff. But it'll work. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

November 20, 2020, 11:39 AM	#6
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Elmer Keith developed the 44 Magnum's original loads in large frame 44 Specials. The longer case was designed by Remington to prevent accidentally feeding their heavier loads into lighter frame 44 Specials, like a Charter Bulldog, that would not handle the high pressures. This is why the 44 Magnum COL is no longer than a 44 Special (actually, the SAAMI max COL is -0.005" shorter for the magnum than for the Special). You may have noticed that some 44 bullets have two crimp grooves, with one 0.12" closer to the nose than the other. These double grooves are to get the 44 Mag and 44 Special COLs with the same bullet in both case lengths. I don't know whether brass has been removed from 44 Special cases to save money since Keith's day or not. The way to check is to take fired cases of each size with the spent primers still in and fill then with water and weigh them before and after filling to get the water weight capacity difference. If it is 4.6 grains or less, you don't have more volume under the bullet in the Special case. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 22, 2020, 05:21 PM	#12
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	Although , Im not loading anything like the op , I might in the future and I prefer the Lee collet crimp type crimp die for 357 & 44mag . Would the collet crimp die work better or not as well as the FCD when there is no crimp groove ? __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

November 20, 2020, 07:21 AM	#2
jetinteriorguy Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2013 Posts: 3,176	As long as you can keep enough tension on the bullet to keep it in place under recoil it shouldn’t be a big enough difference at pistol ranges to matter. If the competition is longer range you may notice some difference, but I’m guessing this isn’t the case since you stated it’s a low to moderate range load.

November 20, 2020, 12:17 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	It is not likely a dangerous combination in a Magnum gun. You are going to crimp just wherever your OAL takes you? What bullet, does it have a crimp groove or grooves? I am always concerned about getting a good revolver crimp on an ungrooved bullet, although I get by with it for .38 Special.

November 22, 2020, 05:51 PM	#13
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	I did not know they made a collet crimp for straight cases like .357 and .44. Considering that it is designed to MAKE its own crimp groove, you will just have to try it and see. I'm ok with the CFC or regular taper crimp if the bullet does not have a groove, but I am not loading for heavy recoil.

November 23, 2020, 07:41 AM	#15
jetinteriorguy Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2013 Posts: 3,176	Yup, no crimp groove necessary. I have even used a pretty stout crimp on Cu coated bullets with no negative affect.

November 23, 2020, 04:20 PM	#16
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The only problem is, the Lee Collet Style Crimp Die is made only for the 44 Magnum and not for the 44 Special, which would require a shorter collet. Unlike a lot of other loading dies that work with both, the collets are unique to one case length. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 23, 2020, 05:00 PM	#17
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	Very good point UN so loading as the OP is with the special cases the collet crimp will not work . Although and not saying this as a suggestion per-say but..... you probably could grind the top of a shell holder down to make up the difference??? __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .