.44-40 black powder

Doc Hoy · May 23, 2014, 01:51 PM

Just got done reloading some .44-40 with a .429 200 grain lead bullet.

Very light crimp was fine.

Heavier crimp is hard on the thin wall of the case.

WIL TERRY · May 23, 2014, 08:37 PM

REALLY ? Why ?

It is not on mine as I am using the same brass from 20 years ago, all of it crimped tightly upon the appropriate projectiles by a LEE Factory Crimp die.

Doc Hoy · May 24, 2014, 05:54 AM

Same dies, Very careful with the adjustment.

These are the first .44-40s I have reloaded and obviously I am doing something wrong.

I know something is wrong citing the very evidence that "WIL" provided. About a billion folks reload .44-40 successfully every day of the week.

I loaded 50 with very little crimp and fifty with a bit heavier crimp. Three of the tight crimped rounds have the mouth very slightly damaged.

I am shooting these in a 66 Winchester clone and I think they will go through the action. May even fire form back to health.

WIL TERRY · May 24, 2014, 10:50 AM

DOC, WITH ANY OF THE BOTTLENECK PISTOL CARTRIDGES use the LEE FCD I mentioned. I consider it to be mandatory with all of 'em, the 32-20, 38-40, and the 44-40, and quite literally I've yet to ever lose a case with this die. Brass used includes W-W, R-P, and STARLINE. If you're gonna buy new 44-40 brass by the STARLINE as it is an ever so slighyly teeny lil bit thicker. IF you ever buy new 44-40 dies for use with lead bullets the REDDINGS are superb, but for jacketed 44-40 bullets the regular RCBS 44-40 dies are preferred by me for the bullet seating.
I load for six 44-40 pistols, four SA and two DA, plus one 44-40 UB' '73 carbine. All of 'em shoot to beat the band with the same loads.
And so it goes...

Doc Hoy · May 24, 2014, 11:10 AM

One thing I don't have is the FCD.

I am using the die which came with the three die set.

I'll bet that would solve my problems.

I am using a relatively hard cast bullet (BHN12 to 14). I size it to .429 with the Lyman 45 Lube Sizer die. That size is near the top of the size range for .44-40. I will only use these rounds in a Winchester clone as I have said. (I did not slug the bore) and I only load BP or subs.

I have fifty factory smokeless reloads using Starline brass. The ones I reloaded myself are all Winchester.

So with the combination of: a) a harder bullet, that may be a tiny bit large and b) trying to seat and crimp in the same step, I could have found the source of my issues.

Doc Hoy · May 25, 2014, 06:17 AM

Is there any reason to try to crimp the case heavily? It is going through a lever gun. Is a heavy crimp needed to prevent movement of the bullet in the case as it makes its way down the magazine and into the chamber?

Tnx,

stubbicatt · May 25, 2014, 08:39 AM

Are you trimming all your brass to the same length? I have found that with such traditional rimmed cartridges, if trimmed to a uniform depth, and cast bullets, the Redding profile crimp is a better arrangement than the Lee FCD. I like the FCD with jacketed bullets, as I think in that application it is a better deal.

For cast bullets I have obtained better accuracy with the profile crimp, crimped into the groove cast into the bullet as it should. But to work well the cases need to be of uniform length.

Doc Hoy · May 25, 2014, 09:27 AM

Consistent OAL.

I did not check all of the cases and can't correlate longer cases with deformation.

Be a good thing to check after I shoot them.

salvadore · May 25, 2014, 09:40 AM

Hey Doc, I faintly remember a Ventarino(sp) article commenting on bottle neck cartridges without a crimp groove like the 42728 were ddesigned without the groove because the case was filled with BP and helped support the bullet from sliding further into the case.

Doc Hoy · May 25, 2014, 09:56 AM

The bullet does sit right on top of the powder.

Goex was compressed slightly.

I suppose I might cycle a coupla round through the action and see is LOA changes any.

Doc Hoy · May 25, 2014, 05:00 PM

.44-40 with a crimp got consistently 1350 and 1400 fps

Without a crimp it was right a 1150. I had some smokeless commercial reloads which were all below 1100 fps. Accuracy of the smokeless reloads was not up to the accuracy of mine.

BUT

After about fifty rounds the accuracy went to crap. I think when I get to cleaning it, I will find that the bore is leaded.

There is more to learn about this rifle.

I have not slugged the bore. I am shooting a .429 LRN bullet.

I don't need 1400 fps, so I may down load the cartridge and reduce leading. (If that is the problem with accuracy)

May 23, 2014, 01:51 PM	#1
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	.44-40 black powder Just got done reloading some .44-40 with a .429 200 grain lead bullet. Very light crimp was fine. Heavier crimp is hard on the thin wall of the case. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

May 24, 2014, 05:54 AM	#3
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Don't know why Same dies, Very careful with the adjustment. These are the first .44-40s I have reloaded and obviously I am doing something wrong. I know something is wrong citing the very evidence that "WIL" provided. About a billion folks reload .44-40 successfully every day of the week. I loaded 50 with very little crimp and fifty with a bit heavier crimp. Three of the tight crimped rounds have the mouth very slightly damaged. I am shooting these in a 66 Winchester clone and I think they will go through the action. May even fire form back to health. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

May 24, 2014, 11:10 AM	#5
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	WIL One thing I don't have is the FCD. I am using the die which came with the three die set. I'll bet that would solve my problems. I am using a relatively hard cast bullet (BHN12 to 14). I size it to .429 with the Lyman 45 Lube Sizer die. That size is near the top of the size range for .44-40. I will only use these rounds in a Winchester clone as I have said. (I did not slug the bore) and I only load BP or subs. I have fifty factory smokeless reloads using Starline brass. The ones I reloaded myself are all Winchester. So with the combination of: a) a harder bullet, that may be a tiny bit large and b) trying to seat and crimp in the same step, I could have found the source of my issues. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

May 25, 2014, 06:17 AM	#6
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	I forgot to ask..... Is there any reason to try to crimp the case heavily? It is going through a lever gun. Is a heavy crimp needed to prevent movement of the bullet in the case as it makes its way down the magazine and into the chamber? Tnx, __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

May 25, 2014, 09:27 AM	#8
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	I am getting... Consistent OAL. I did not check all of the cases and can't correlate longer cases with deformation. Be a good thing to check after I shoot them. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

May 23, 2014, 08:37 PM	#2
WIL TERRY Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2000 Location: BLACK HILLS Posts: 1,322	REALLY ? Why ? It is not on mine as I am using the same brass from 20 years ago, all of it crimped tightly upon the appropriate projectiles by a LEE Factory Crimp die.

May 24, 2014, 10:50 AM	#4
WIL TERRY Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2000 Location: BLACK HILLS Posts: 1,322	DOC, WITH ANY OF THE BOTTLENECK PISTOL CARTRIDGES use the LEE FCD I mentioned. I consider it to be mandatory with all of 'em, the 32-20, 38-40, and the 44-40, and quite literally I've yet to ever lose a case with this die. Brass used includes W-W, R-P, and STARLINE. If you're gonna buy new 44-40 brass by the STARLINE as it is an ever so slighyly teeny lil bit thicker. IF you ever buy new 44-40 dies for use with lead bullets the REDDINGS are superb, but for jacketed 44-40 bullets the regular RCBS 44-40 dies are preferred by me for the bullet seating. I load for six 44-40 pistols, four SA and two DA, plus one 44-40 UB' '73 carbine. All of 'em shoot to beat the band with the same loads. And so it goes...

May 25, 2014, 08:39 AM	#7
stubbicatt Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Posts: 1,707	Are you trimming all your brass to the same length? I have found that with such traditional rimmed cartridges, if trimmed to a uniform depth, and cast bullets, the Redding profile crimp is a better arrangement than the Lee FCD. I like the FCD with jacketed bullets, as I think in that application it is a better deal. For cast bullets I have obtained better accuracy with the profile crimp, crimped into the groove cast into the bullet as it should. But to work well the cases need to be of uniform length.

May 25, 2014, 09:40 AM	#9
salvadore Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,282	Hey Doc, I faintly remember a Ventarino(sp) article commenting on bottle neck cartridges without a crimp groove like the 42728 were ddesigned without the groove because the case was filled with BP and helped support the bullet from sliding further into the case.

May 25, 2014, 09:56 AM	#10
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Hmmmm. The bullet does sit right on top of the powder. Goex was compressed slightly. I suppose I might cycle a coupla round through the action and see is LOA changes any. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

May 25, 2014, 05:00 PM	#11
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Partial answert to my question .44-40 with a crimp got consistently 1350 and 1400 fps Without a crimp it was right a 1150. I had some smokeless commercial reloads which were all below 1100 fps. Accuracy of the smokeless reloads was not up to the accuracy of mine. BUT After about fifty rounds the accuracy went to crap. I think when I get to cleaning it, I will find that the bore is leaded. There is more to learn about this rifle. I have not slugged the bore. I am shooting a .429 LRN bullet. I don't need 1400 fps, so I may down load the cartridge and reduce leading. (If that is the problem with accuracy) __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.