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October 2, 2012, 07:08 PM | #126 | ||||
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It is very interesting that you have yet to provide a citable source for your claim made on page 4 of this thread in post #94-
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Neither Schwartz nor MacPherson (in their respective books that present highly researched testing approaches employing water as a medium) claim to be able to quantify the physiological effects of bullet penetration beyond the amount of tissue that would be crushed during a bullet's penetration through gelatin/soft tissue. What's next? Are you now going to accuse Schwartz and MacPherson of intellectual dishonesty without any citable sources or having read their books? Quote:
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Sure, believe what you want.
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QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION Last edited by 481; October 2, 2012 at 07:14 PM. |
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October 2, 2012, 07:17 PM | #127 | |
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Why do people stop fighting? Some lose the will to fight some lose the ability to fight. To rule out one because you cannot quantify in a laboratory it is just as wrong as cherry picking the results you want. I am just saying that gelatin testing is oversimplification. It has its place to be sure, but I have yet to see it presented in such a manner as "This is what success looks like". It has been presented as an educated guess. I am at the end of this debate. I am not a Doctor. For my career I spent 26 years of as a street cop in some of the most violent areas in the country and I was also an NREMT on the street for 9 of those years. I know what works and what just makes people angry. When I say that high energy round work, that is my opinion based on personal experience, not something I read somewhere. Marginal rounds are unpredictable performers on the street. The 38 special, 380 ACP, Standard velocity 9mm. When you bump the 9mm up in velocity it works quite well.
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October 2, 2012, 07:25 PM | #128 | |||
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Quote:
From page 5, post #124 of this thread: Quote:
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QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION Last edited by 481; October 2, 2012 at 07:37 PM. |
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October 2, 2012, 08:43 PM | #129 | ||
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Quote:
The following data from this study offers an interesting perspective on that question: The assailants not incapacitated are the ones who can still hurt you. And as Ellifritz says (emphasis added):
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October 8, 2012, 10:02 AM | #130 |
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Take the velocity/energy list of the following:
.45 long colt, nominal bullet weight 250 grain 750/312 .45 A.C.P., nominal bullet weight, 230 grain = 835/365 .38 Special, nominal bullet weight, 158 grain. = 800/199 You will find that the velocity is pretty close for all three. However, it is the energy that will increase. For the numbers above alone, a lot of folks love and live by the .45ACP. A lot of us, like me, like the .38, because of the package size, and carry ability. |
October 8, 2012, 10:29 AM | #131 | |
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Frank,
Quote:
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October 8, 2012, 10:53 AM | #132 | |
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Quote:
First there is the question "Which is more important in ballistics?" Then there is the far different question "In a defensive rd for a handgun which is more important to consider....muzzle velocity or muzzle energy?" The first presents a large area to consider because the question is so open ended. It needs to be more specific. The second question is a bit more specific. At least it focuses on defensive rounds for handguns. This indicates to me that we are not discussing those handgun cartridges either too powerful or too weak to be considered "defensive" handgun cartridges. Also we are not to consider rifle or shotgun cartridges. I think the second question is what IMTHDUKE meant for us to address. We must keep in mind what the primary task of a "defensive" handgun cartridge is. The task or goal of a defensive" handgun cartridge is to incapacitate an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death as quickly as possible. To be successful, this cartridge must be fired from a handgun which the shooter will have on their person at the moment the threat is recognized which limits its size and weight. Further the defensive shooter must me able to competently respond to the imminent threat within a time frame that saves the shooter from great bodily harm or death which requires shooter awareness and skill. As has been stated in this thread, what the projectile must do over 95% of the time to stop a threat is to cause bleeding to such an extent that the threat is incapacitated. Most of the time this bleeding is caused by crushed vascular tissue. So we are not so much discussing external ballistics as we are anatomy and the destruction caused inside of the body by handgun projectiles which encounter various tissues at various velocities. So in the context of elastic vascular tissue destruction, constrained within the parameters of "defensive" handgun cartridges; which is more important muzzle velocity or muzzle energy? We are still left with a great deal to consider. Muzzle energy is dependent upon muzzle velocity. One can not stand on its own. Each must be related to other factors such as bullet construction, bullet mass, diameter, sectional density, etc. An interesting though exercise. One thing to consider is that incapacitation due to bleeding takes time. This time frame is highly variable.
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