No cover, stand or kneel?

timothy75 · November 6, 2005, 11:28 PM

In a gunfight with no escape and no cover would it be best to kneel and sacrifice mobility or shoot standing?

Hard Ball · November 6, 2005, 11:41 PM

If you are actually in a gunfiight do not waste time! Shoot or move. Do not kneel.

rugerdude · November 6, 2005, 11:42 PM

I would say kneel, because you get a more steady aim and you present a smaller target.

Pointer · November 7, 2005, 12:55 AM

Shoot as you move...

Move to your left because the perp is more likely to miss his target (you) to his left.

Shoot high and right (At his left shoulder) and your moving misses will have a better chance of "pulling or jerking" into the kill zone.

model 25 · November 7, 2005, 01:02 AM

Distance is your friend.

25

bjmanersr · November 7, 2005, 01:05 AM

Move;always move-move-move

Sir William · November 7, 2005, 01:11 AM

I like three choices. Drop and eat dirt, a band-aid boo-boo beats a hole. Move or roll then. Second is what I call the hot pavement hopscotch. You jump, hop, skip as you wish toward the shooter. Left, right, up and down while agressively closing the gap and acquiring a sight picture. The third is a simple modification of Isosceles. Turn and extend your stronghand with weapon to the shooter and acquire a sight picture. You present only one side and thus, less target.

woodland · November 7, 2005, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Move to your left because the perp is more likely to miss his target (you) to his left.

Wouldn't moving to your left be moving to his right?

model 25 · November 7, 2005, 01:26 AM

Drop and eat dirt
Left, right, up and down while agressively closing the gap You jump, hop, skip as you wish toward the shooter.

No offense intended here but when you drop and eat dirt so does you gun. For the rest of the movement I would like to see your practice routine to shoot straight will doing all that under fire. I know he said no escape but distance is still what you want.

If I was going to do something it would be to back away as quick as possible while holding, siteing and squeezing. Most people can't hit reliably past 21 feet with incomming fire and only a handgun much less while jumping up and down. If you can then you have my utmost respect as one shooter to another.

Again no offense intended just different view.

25

stratus · November 7, 2005, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hard Ball

If you are actually in a gunfiight do not waste time! Shoot or move. Do not kneel.

+1

That's a solid, simple answer that I agree with. Do not duck unless you have some cover. If you have cover, you want to stick behind it, so it doesn't hurt you to limit your mobility while you're behind said cover. But since you asked about a situation in which you didn't have cover... move move move, until he has to reload and then drop him. Don't waste ammo trying to fire while you're running if you have a handgun, unless you have enough rounds to afford suppressive fire, or you're at really close range.

Sir William · November 7, 2005, 02:22 AM

I may have seen this in a different light. My image is a scene with no retreat, escape, cover or concealment. The only option is get dirty, get close and one will survive. You might not be that one.

warwagon · November 7, 2005, 04:33 AM

We have found that most rounds fired at a flat surface only rise about 4-8 inches and travel in a flat trajectory till loss of energy and gravity take over. Mobility in this scenario is your best bet. Staying put only presents a non moving target to to your adversary giving him the advantage.

Rimrod · November 7, 2005, 07:07 AM

Stand and shoot.

XavierBreath · November 7, 2005, 07:20 AM

Move.

If you have no cover option, then movement will protect you most. Preferred movement is a left diagonal going away from the enemy to increase distance. More importantly, keep your movement sporadic and unpredictable. Learn to shoot with decent accuracy on the move. Bullseye shooting will not save your hide in a gunfight (usually) but destroying your enemy's ability to get a hit while hitting what you aim at will.

FWIW, leftward movement is towards your enemy's right. Rightward (or strong side) movement of a target is the most difficult to compensate for.

Dust_Devil · November 7, 2005, 07:38 AM

Are both you and the bad guy out in the open? Then I say keep practicing your marksmanship and neutralize the BG before he gets you and you won't have to worry about standing or kneeling.

But seriously, you do want to keep on moving and move fast. A moving target is much harder to shoot than a target even half its size standing still. I say you should keep moving and move in random directions so the BG can't get an aim on you while moving in a consistent direction.

Laying down? I suppose this may work if you are at very long ranges like 200 yards or more, but at close ranges if you are laying down that only gives the BG an opportunity to get closer to you and your big ass body spread across the ground is an easy target.

Perhaps anyone's first reaction when getting shot at out in the open is to crouch or kneel down, quickly find their target and then shoot and move, shoot and move.

OBIWAN · November 7, 2005, 08:05 AM

With no escape and no cover you want to end it quickly

Keep shooting...and...if possible...keep moving

Towards cover preferably

But any movement at all is helpful, as often times the BG will be shooting at where you were

Going to your knees or prone sacrifices mobility (makes you a sitting duck) and makes for akwardness on the way down and the way up (if you survive at all)

ISP2605 · November 7, 2005, 08:11 AM

"Quote:
Move to your left because the perp is more likely to miss his target (you) to his left.

Wouldn't moving to your left be moving to his right?"

You're correct Woodland.

OBIWAN · November 7, 2005, 09:29 AM

Have actually played with this

For a right handed shooter you tend to get less accurate as you swing your arm to the right (away from your body) rather than left (closer to your body)

When we did it, most people were forced to move their feet "sooner" when trying to engage a target to their right

YMMV

This was not a real scientific study but it did use both weaver and Isoceles shooters....any resemblence to actual science is purely accidental

ISP2605 · November 7, 2005, 09:50 AM

You're correct Obiwan, provided the other subject is also right handed.
The comments were just in reference to Pointer's "Move to your left because the perp is more likely to miss his target (you) to his left."
If you move to your left then to the other subject you are moving to his right, not left.

Mikeyboy · November 7, 2005, 10:13 AM

Would it be simple to move away in the direction of the bad guys gun hand. I can see me getting confused in a panic situation forgetting which way to go. Kind of like the icy conditions when you drive, do I turn into the skid or away.
Does the same hold true with rifle/shotgun shooter? I'm thinking it might be the opposite, making it even more confusing.

My thought on the original question, keep moving with the only exceptions is to get down when you don't know where the shooter is. Maybe you get on one knee in the open if shooting long distance (50 yard and over) at a guy with a pistol who also in the open and is having a hard time hitting you too, instead of just running up on each other to close the distance, but what are the odds of that happening.

VaughnT · November 7, 2005, 10:19 AM

I cannot think of a single instance where kneeling would do you any good. It might provide a smaller target, but it also compacts the vital zones in their relationship to eachother; it puts the knees very close to the groin and torso. Visualize in your mind what a person in a typical kneeling position would look like from the shooter's perspective. It wouldn't take much luck to put a round or three into a critical area.

If you don't have physical cover, use movement as your cover. Badguys are generally poor shots and rely on a massive volley rather than precision fire. They chances of them taking a good sight picture, and making that one shot count, are very slim. Because of this, you moving acts the same as a solid object that obscures your visual signature from them.

How do you move? As fast as you can while without sacrificing your ability to deliver accurate return-fire.

Remember, you are a shooter, a gun nut, and have likely trained far more than your antagonist. All of that training and practice and general goodtimes at the range won't count for a hill of beans if you get all silly and just lob rounds at your enemy as he has lobbed them at you. We are not playing a rousing game of Badmitton, people!

Pointer · November 7, 2005, 10:25 AM

Woodland

That is correct... move to the shooters right.

That majority will be right-handed... this tends to block their view of the target on the right with their gun and hand and arm, etc.

The natural direction of movement for the hand/arm, is downward and across the body... the other direction is un-natural and must be controlled by the shooter.

Under stress, the natural tends to take over...
That's why we practice...
to make the un-natural come naturally!

Most perps are not very practiced shooters... so they "naturally" miss down and left... (I hope!

)

The opposite for the left-handed perp...
So, if you have a split-second and have your wits about you... adjust accordingly.

EXAMPLE

In pistol training, they had a bunch of guys who had never fired a pistol in their lives... before this Training Course.

Near the end of training, as a demonstration, they had us "shuffle-step" toward our targets with our weapons pointed at it. They had us where our guns were within 3-4 yards and suddenly every DI there yelled "FIRE, FIRE, FIRE!"...

Everybody fired their last two rounds at point blank range...

Less than 3% of the company hit the silhouette with both shots and less than 5% hit the target AT ALL!

You guessed it... all the misses and most of the "single hits" were DOWN and to the "OFF-side" of the shooter.

Even in a stressful moment... you have a lot more time than you think...
Take full advantage of it and aim the gun... don't just point it!

Yes, I had two X's.

shamus005 · November 7, 2005, 10:46 AM

Standing still in a gunfight is a bad idea. Shoot and move and keep shooting and moving.

Eghad · November 7, 2005, 11:04 AM

no cover....move

timothy75 · November 7, 2005, 11:46 AM

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Movement is probably a good idea but I wonder, if I can just place one accurate shot I can end the damn situation all together without all the running around.

November 6, 2005, 11:28 PM	#1
timothy75 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2005 Location: Nevada Posts: 1,146	No cover, stand or kneel? In a gunfight with no escape and no cover would it be best to kneel and sacrifice mobility or shoot standing?

November 6, 2005, 11:41 PM	#2
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	If you are actually in a gunfiight do not waste time! Shoot or move. Do not kneel. __________________ "I swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemeis domestic or foreign WHOMSOEVER."

November 6, 2005, 11:42 PM	#3
rugerdude Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2004 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma Posts: 1,443	I would say kneel, because you get a more steady aim and you present a smaller target. __________________ "The SKS is a rifle, made the way they should be, out of a heavy block of crappy commie steel, set in an inletted semi-reshaped 2x4." Not my quote but I agree completely.

November 7, 2005, 01:05 AM	#6
bjmanersr Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2005 Location: Tennessee by way of AL. Posts: 161	Forget kneeling Move;always move-move-move __________________ B J Maner sr

November 7, 2005, 07:07 AM	#13
Rimrod Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Behind enemy lines Posts: 1,309	Stand and shoot. __________________ "... he held his gun as almost every man skilled in such matters preferred to hold one when in action, with a half bent elbow that brought the gun slightly in front of his body at about, or slightly above, the level of the waist." - Wyatt Earp from Wyatt Earp Frontier Marshall by Stuart N. Lake

November 7, 2005, 12:55 AM	#4
Pointer Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2005 Location: Utah Posts: 2,559	Shoot as you move... Move to your left because the perp is more likely to miss his target (you) to *his* left. Shoot high and right (At *his* left shoulder) and your moving misses will have a better chance of "pulling or jerking" into the kill zone.

November 7, 2005, 01:02 AM	#5
model 25 Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: out west Posts: 892	Distance is your friend. 25

November 7, 2005, 01:11 AM	#7
Sir William Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2004 Posts: 3,261	I like three choices. Drop and eat dirt, a band-aid boo-boo beats a hole. Move or roll then. Second is what I call the hot pavement hopscotch. You jump, hop, skip as you wish toward the shooter. Left, right, up and down while agressively closing the gap and acquiring a sight picture. The third is a simple modification of Isosceles. Turn and extend your stronghand with weapon to the shooter and acquire a sight picture. You present only one side and thus, less target.

November 7, 2005, 01:26 AM	#9
model 25 Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: out west Posts: 892	Drop and eat dirt Left, right, up and down while agressively closing the gap You jump, hop, skip as you wish toward the shooter. No offense intended here but when you drop and eat dirt so does you gun. For the rest of the movement I would like to see your practice routine to shoot straight will doing all that under fire. I know he said no escape but distance is still what you want. If I was going to do something it would be to back away as quick as possible while holding, siteing and squeezing. Most people can't hit reliably past 21 feet with incomming fire and only a handgun much less while jumping up and down. If you can then you have my utmost respect as one shooter to another. Again no offense intended just different view. 25

November 7, 2005, 02:22 AM	#11
Sir William Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2004 Posts: 3,261	I may have seen this in a different light. My image is a scene with no retreat, escape, cover or concealment. The only option is get dirty, get close and one will survive. You might not be that one.

November 7, 2005, 04:33 AM	#12
warwagon Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2005 Location: Dayton Oh Posts: 341	We have found that most rounds fired at a flat surface only rise about 4-8 inches and travel in a flat trajectory till loss of energy and gravity take over. Mobility in this scenario is your best bet. Staying put only presents a non moving target to to your adversary giving him the advantage.

November 7, 2005, 07:20 AM	#14
XavierBreath Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2002 Location: North Louisiana Posts: 2,800	Move. If you have no cover option, then movement will protect you most. Preferred movement is a left diagonal going away from the enemy to increase distance. More importantly, keep your movement sporadic and unpredictable. Learn to shoot with decent accuracy on the move. Bullseye shooting will not save your hide in a gunfight (usually) but destroying your enemy's ability to get a hit while hitting what you aim at will. FWIW, leftward movement is towards your enemy's right. Rightward (or strong side) movement of a target is the most difficult to compensate for. __________________ Xavier's Blog

November 7, 2005, 07:38 AM	#15
Dust_Devil Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 235	Are both you and the bad guy out in the open? Then I say keep practicing your marksmanship and neutralize the BG before he gets you and you won't have to worry about standing or kneeling. But seriously, you do want to keep on moving and move fast. A moving target is much harder to shoot than a target even half its size standing still. I say you should keep moving and move in random directions so the BG can't get an aim on you while moving in a consistent direction. Laying down? I suppose this may work if you are at very long ranges like 200 yards or more, but at close ranges if you are laying down that only gives the BG an opportunity to get closer to you and your big ass body spread across the ground is an easy target. Perhaps anyone's first reaction when getting shot at out in the open is to crouch or kneel down, quickly find their target and then shoot and move, shoot and move.

November 7, 2005, 08:05 AM	#16
OBIWAN Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,340	With no escape and no cover you want to end it quickly Keep shooting...and...if possible...keep moving Towards cover preferably But any movement at all is helpful, as often times the BG will be shooting at where you were Going to your knees or prone sacrifices mobility (makes you a sitting duck) and makes for akwardness on the way down and the way up (if you survive at all)

November 7, 2005, 08:11 AM	#17
ISP2605 Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Posts: 954	"Quote: Move to your left because the perp is more likely to miss his target (you) to his left. Wouldn't moving to your left be moving to his right?" You're correct Woodland.

November 7, 2005, 09:29 AM	#18
OBIWAN Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,340	Have actually played with this For a right handed shooter you tend to get less accurate as you swing your arm to the right (away from your body) rather than left (closer to your body) When we did it, most people were forced to move their feet "sooner" when trying to engage a target to their right YMMV This was not a real scientific study but it did use both weaver and Isoceles shooters....any resemblence to actual science is purely accidental

November 7, 2005, 09:50 AM	#19
ISP2605 Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Posts: 954	You're correct Obiwan, provided the other subject is also right handed. The comments were just in reference to Pointer's "Move to your left because the perp is more likely to miss his target (you) to his left." If you move to your left then to the other subject you are moving to his right, not left.

November 7, 2005, 10:13 AM	#20
Mikeyboy Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Posts: 1,231	Would it be simple to move away in the direction of the bad guys gun hand. I can see me getting confused in a panic situation forgetting which way to go. Kind of like the icy conditions when you drive, do I turn into the skid or away. Does the same hold true with rifle/shotgun shooter? I'm thinking it might be the opposite, making it even more confusing. My thought on the original question, keep moving with the only exceptions is to get down when you don't know where the shooter is. Maybe you get on one knee in the open if shooting long distance (50 yard and over) at a guy with a pistol who also in the open and is having a hard time hitting you too, instead of just running up on each other to close the distance, but what are the odds of that happening.

November 7, 2005, 10:19 AM	#21
VaughnT Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2000 Location: Western SC Posts: 663	I cannot think of a single instance where kneeling would do you any good. It might provide a smaller target, but it also compacts the vital zones in their relationship to eachother; it puts the knees very close to the groin and torso. Visualize in your mind what a person in a typical kneeling position would look like from the shooter's perspective. It wouldn't take much luck to put a round or three into a critical area. If you don't have physical cover, use movement as your cover. Badguys are generally poor shots and rely on a massive volley rather than precision fire. They chances of them taking a good sight picture, and making that one shot count, are very slim. Because of this, you moving acts the same as a solid object that obscures your visual signature from them. How do you move? As fast as you can while without sacrificing your ability to deliver accurate return-fire. Remember, you are a shooter, a gun nut, and have likely trained far more than your antagonist. All of that training and practice and general goodtimes at the range won't count for a hill of beans if you get all silly and just lob rounds at your enemy as he has lobbed them at you. We are not playing a rousing game of Badmitton, people! __________________ When Reason Fails.....

November 7, 2005, 10:25 AM	#22
Pointer Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2005 Location: Utah Posts: 2,559	Woodland That is correct... move to the shooters right. That majority will be right-handed... this tends to block their view of the target on the right with their gun and hand and arm, etc. The natural direction of movement for the hand/arm, is downward and across the body... the other direction is un-natural and must be controlled by the shooter. Under stress, the natural tends to take over... That's why we practice... to make the un-natural come naturally! Most perps are not very practiced shooters... so they "naturally" miss down and left... (I hope! ) The opposite for the left-handed perp... So, if you have a split-second and have your wits about you... adjust accordingly. EXAMPLE In pistol training, they had a bunch of guys who had never fired a pistol in their lives... before this Training Course. Near the end of training, as a demonstration, they had us "shuffle-step" toward our targets with our weapons pointed at it. They had us where our guns were within 3-4 yards and suddenly every DI there yelled "FIRE, FIRE, FIRE!"... Everybody fired their last two rounds at point blank range... Less than 3% of the company hit the silhouette with both shots and less than 5% hit the target AT ALL! You guessed it... all the misses and most of the "single hits" were DOWN and to the "OFF-side" of the shooter. Even in a stressful moment... you have a lot more time than you think... Take full advantage of it and aim the gun... don't just point it! Yes, I had two X's.

November 7, 2005, 10:46 AM	#23
shamus005 Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2005 Posts: 526	Standing still in a gunfight is a bad idea. Shoot and move and keep shooting and moving.

November 7, 2005, 11:04 AM	#24
Eghad Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 6,231	no cover....move __________________ Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member

November 7, 2005, 11:46 AM	#25
timothy75 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2005 Location: Nevada Posts: 1,146	Thanks for the feedback everyone. Movement is probably a good idea but I wonder, if I can just place one accurate shot I can end the damn situation all together without all the running around.