Partial full-length sizing rifle brass

[old roper]

Bart B, Your right your only getting information and pasting it along with no real world experience on what you post. How that sound

This is my last post on subject. Post all you want Bart

[Bart B.]

Sounds to me like you have poor English comprehension skills.

But it's OK by me if you make all sorts of comments about stuff you've no experience in. Opinions based on facts from others is usually a good basis for them.

[F. Guffey]

RESTER forum. I had absolute no intention of making more than one post. Somewhere about the bottom of page 2 a polite and well meaning member informed me I should know most of the responders to the thread are bench resters.

I took 15 rifles to the range, I informed Dottie I needed to get as far away from other shooters as possible, I was the first one there so she put me on the very end of the line, the next person through the door came down the line and started setting up at the next table to me, I went to see Dottie. She said my wife called and wanted her to give me a message 'while' the other shooter was signing in. He asked Dottie if I was a bench rester, Dottie replied she did not know but was taking to my wife and informed him she would ask her. Anyhow, she told me if he asked tell him you are a crack shot. My wife not knowing what a bench rester was or looked like suggested to Dottie if she went looking for me she should look for someone that was handy and looked like a plumber from the back. Dottie made me feel welcome and at home with her nagging. Later she died of cancer.

The responses I got from the bench resters indicated they did not understand the question or my response because they take them self's too seriously. "I'm a bench rester " is not a qualifying statement.

F. Guffey

[603Country]

To the OP, I reread all the posts (mostly to see what mean things Guffy and Bart had to say to each other this time), and I caught that you have and use the Lee Collet Dies. If that's the case, then all you need for any caliber are the Redding body dies. They don't cost much and are worth the expense. I bought a new 260 some time back, and it liked the same load I had put together for the other gun. But, all the ammo I had loaded for the previous 260 would not chamber. I had expected that, and had ordered a body die in 260. I set it up and bumped the shoulder back in very small increments until the rounds chambered easily. All the old rounds printed in exactly the same place as the newly loaded rounds. Yay me!

[F. Guffey]

steveNChunter

being rebarreled with a factory contour 16.25" long 1:10 twist .308 barrel

Your smith will be using a gage to determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. In the perfect world the chamber will be .004" longer from the shoulder to the bolt face than the case length from the shoulder to the case head.

In the perfect world a reloader should be able to adjust the die off the shell holder .004" to size a case that has .000 clearance between the case head and bolt face after sizing a fired case. It is possible the case will not chamber without resistance to bolt closing, that should not be a problem, I would suggest reducing the gap to .002 then try again. Back to the perfect world. .004" is a very good number if you are using the rifle for hunting.

A few smiths make chamber gages with the chamber reamer, most chamber gages made are L.E. Wilson case gage knock-offs, they are cut flush with the case head, that is minimum length/full length sized, the chamber in the perfect world is .004" longer than the minimum length/full length sized case for the 308W. I match the chamber in the rifle to the chamber gage. meaning I match case head protrusion +head space length.

There is no shortage of barrels around here, I have no problem using a take-off barrel as a chamber gage.

F. Guffey

[MEATSAW]

I took 15 rifles to the range, I informed Dottie I needed to get as far away from other shooters as possible, I was the first one there so she put me on the very end of the line, the next person through the door came down the line and started setting up at the next table to me, I went to see Dottie. She said my wife called and wanted her to give me a message 'while' the other shooter was signing in. He asked Dottie if I was a bench rester, Dottie replied she did not know but was taking to my wife and informed him she would ask her. Anyhow, she told me if he asked tell him you are a crack shot. My wife not knowing what a bench rester was or looked like suggested to Dottie if she went looking for me she should look for someone that was handy and looked like a plumber from the back. Dottie made me feel welcome and at home with her nagging. Later she died of cancer.

What the hell is this? Random story and written so poorly no one can even follow what you are saying. How is it beneficial to anyone to tell such a esoteric tale that hardly anyone can even bear reading?

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by old roper

Bart B, Your right your only getting information and pasting it along with no real world experience on what you post. How that sound

The idea that you must have personal experience in order to know anything is a logical fallacy in the extreme.

If this were the case, humanity would forever be repeating the work done by others and never learning more. We build on the experiences of others, we don't always have to repeat it.

If someone tells you that your car engine will blow up if you don't keep oil in it, do you need to blow up your engine to "know" that information before you can share it with others or can you just know the information?

Fact is, the opposite of personal experience is almost always best. Would you rather have 100% of the personal experience of 1 person or 1% of the experiences of 100 people?

This whole "personal experience makes me know more than you" is the reason that so many threads degenerate to urination contests. One guy shot a few animals with a bullet and declares it to be the best ever, while another guy shot that bullet at a few animals and had it fail so it's the worst ever. Neither is statistically enough to know the truth, but they will both proclaim it until they're blue in the face.

I do not always agree 100% with what Bart says but the man has literally decades of personal experience in competitive shooting and handloading AND has collected data from untold numbers of others, but we're going to come out with "if you haven't done exactly this thing then you don't know what you're talking about!"? Please. Let's give a rest.

[tangolima]

It is quite entertaining to see folks going for each other's throat, is it not?

-TL

[steveNChunter]

This whole "personal experience makes me know more than you" is the reason that so many threads degenerate to urination contests.

I agree Brian. I don't know how my simple question about partially FL sizing cases morphed into an argument about who has more experience or what sort of experience is the best or whatever, but I'm glad we made it through it without anyone's maternal lineage being questioned. I thank everyone who actually gave some advice on the original topic, I've had alot of questions answered.

Your smith will be using a gage to determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. In the perfect world the chamber will be .004" longer from the shoulder to the bolt face than the case length from the shoulder to the case head.

In the perfect world a reloader should be able to adjust the die off the shell holder .004" to size a case that has .000 clearance between the case head and bolt face after sizing a fired case. It is possible the case will not chamber without resistance to bolt closing, that should not be a problem, I would suggest reducing the gap to .002 then try again. Back to the perfect world. .004" is a very good number if you are using the rifle for hunting.

A few smiths make chamber gages with the chamber reamer, most chamber gages made are L.E. Wilson case gage knock-offs, they are cut flush with the case head, that is minimum length/full length sized, the chamber in the perfect world is .004" longer than the minimum length/full length sized case for the 308W. I match the chamber in the rifle to the chamber gage. meaning I match case head protrusion +head space length.

F.Guffey- So basically what you're saying I need to do is push the shoulder back .004" when I resize fired brass?

Since it's just a hunting rifle I told my 'smith that I just wanted a standard chamber like it would be from the factory. I told him not to cut the throat too long because I don't plan on shooting a bullet over 150 grains and I want to be able to seat the bullet out close to the lands. I assume he will cut the actual chamber to factory SAAMI spec.

[F. Guffey]

MEATSAW, forgive, and thank you for reading, I place no demand on you nor do I expect you or anyone to make an effort. 15 rifles? I took the rifles to the range to determine if some were part guns or shooters, other rifles I was test firing to determine if the receivers would hold up, when I purchased the rifles I was told the receivers were suspect, they weren't. Some I built and needed to test fire for accuracy. I was happy with the results. I had one rifle that, because of the design, got hot fast and took time to cool, there is no reason for me to get into mortal combat with time, so, while the rifle cooled off, I was shooting something else. The rifle that got hot fast was the most accurate, for $120.00 I was very impressed, I could improve on the appearance, instead I applied the leaver policy, I left-er the way I found-er.

The shooter that ignored Dottie wanted to talk bench rest, I could not think of anything more boring. I informed the shooter next to me I did not want to include him in anything that that came apart. He insisted on staying so I used my cover when testing the suspect receivers, the suspect receivers were a bargain at $25.00 complete. The 4 barrels made good chamber gages.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

F.Guffey- So basically what you're saying I need to do is push the shoulder back .004" when I resize fired brass?

That is close, what I am saying when I adjust the die down to the shell holder with an additional fractional turn of the die, like 1/4 turn, I am full length sizing the case to minimum length. In the perfect world of perfect chambers and dies the case will be .004" shorter in length from the shoulder of the case to the case head than the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face.

Put another way your chamber is go-gage length, you case is sized to minimum length/full length sized, there is .004" difference between the two.

Then there is the not perfect world of chambers and dies, head space gages are nice if they are used as standards and transfers. I have little interest in knowing if the bolt will close on a gage, I want to know the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face.

F. Guffey

[Bart B.]

Steve, I'd set fired case shoulders back no more than .002 inch. The more shoulders are set back, the shorter case life there is. More case length stretching from sizing and shrinking from firing. Besides, most .308 cases have their shoulders set back a thousandth or two from firing pin impact before the primer goes off.

[Colorado Redneck]

https://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N...h-Body-1-Each/

My CZ 222 Rem was giving me fits with inconsistent accuracy. The full length sized new brass was accurate, the once fired neck sized brass wasn't. After reading much from Bart and Guffey here in TFL, I purchased the Hornady Head Space Gauge, and started with unsized factory brass. Then I measured my once fired brass and selected a reference length to shoot for. After fooling around with a few cases, I found a setting that would chamber easily, but didn't set the shoulder back more than about .002 in. on the once fired brass. Two things resulted:
1. Accuracy improved a lot---3/8 inch groups of 3 over and over
2. No more split necks...brass has been reloaded 5-6 times since I started doing this, and is still going strong. For some reason the neck sized brass was splitting about 5-10% on each reload.

I have since started using this gauge on all of my rifle loads. It is not difficult once you get the hang of it. I was slow on the uptake but these guys had patience and kept hammering it into my head. Thanks for that!

[F. Guffey]

SteveNChunter,

Since it's just a hunting rifle I told my 'smith that I just wanted a standard chamber like it would be from the factory.

Rational, Reliable feeding when hunting trumps case life.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

Colorado Redneck, thank you for taking the time.

F. Guffey

[steveNChunter]

F. Guffey- I talked to the smith today, he already has the new barrel on and headspaced. He said it was headspaced .0015" or 1.5 thousandths. I haven't personally fitted any barrels but I assume he knows what he's doing. He has a good reputation around here.

[Bart B.]

Steve, do you understand what that .0015" headspace (as stated by the 'smith) in your rifle means?

I ask because the .308 Win GO headspace gauge is 1.630" and the NO GO gauge is 1.634".

[BuckRub]

It's post's like this that bring different people with true knowledge to the table and anyone who reads and can put this together can gain so much. Wish so much that I would have gotton on a website like this when I first started reloading. I don't even think there was Internet back then. Thanks so much for each of your input.

[F. Guffey]

SteveNChunter,

F. Guffey- I talked to the smith today, he already has the new barrel on and head spaced. He said it was head spaced .0015" or 1.5 thousandths. I haven't personally fitted any barrels but I assume he knows what he's doing. He has a good reputation around here.

Not as problem, he did not follow your instructions. I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel.

What it amounts to he cut your chamber shorter by .0025" than the length of a minimum length/full length sized case or .0025" shorter than a go-gage length chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. , again, not a problem. For a reloader/shooter that understands 'minimum length/full length sized' factory ammo it is a matter of being able to measure the case length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head. I have measured factory Remington ammo by the box, I have found the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head can vary by less than .0005".

When reloading for your rifle and the short chamber you will 0nly be required to adjust the die down to the shell holder with an additional fractional of a turn. Most reloaders will start with a 1/4 turn after the die contacts the shell holder.

Critical, I have no clue what press, die lube and shell holder you are going to be using. There are reloaders that allow themselves to be driven into the curb. There are times their problems start when the smith cuts the chamber short and the reloader starts reloading with cases that have more resistance to sizing than the press has ability to overcome, after that they get all the advise about purchasing additions equipment like small base dies, I solve most of my perceived short chamber problems with a feeler gage.

If you start with new ammo save 2 rounds, if the new ammo chambers and fires and does not allow the case to increase in length between the shoulder of the case and case head more than .002" you can always use the 2 saved cases when using a comparator on your sized cases.

I have presses that do not flex, I have small base dies, I have forming dies and I have modified dies.

I cut short chambers and size cases for short chambers, I also form/size cases for long chambers, as I said, I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel.

F. Guffey

[Bart B.]

What it amounts to he cut your chamber shorter by .0025" than the length of a minimum length/full length sized case or .0025" shorter than a go-gage length chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face.

Does that mean his chamber headspace is 1.6275"? That's .0025" less than the .308's GO gauge 1.630" dimension.

With commercial ammo made to the same related dimensions on their cases measuring 1.627" to 1.634" to meet SAAMI specs, most of them will chamber hard and the longest ones may need the bolt handle beat down to close it into battery.

That 'smith may have cut the chamber .0015" greater than the GO gauge dimension and it's at 1.6315" from bolt face to shoulder reference. Those who call headspace the distance from the bolt face to the case/gauge head often do that. But it's OK for most uses and could even be a tiny bit more.

Steve, hope this ain't confusing you; I'm trying to figure this out based on what information you've given us.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I would presume that most factory ammo is going to be closer to SAAMI minimum than max. Minimum would 1.627. I think most sizing dies would be close to that number, minimum sizing.

[Bart B.]

Brian, you're a good "presumer."

About half of the commercial .308 cases I've measured for headspace were 1.628" or more. Not too many less than 1.627".

[Jim Watson]

That 'smith may have cut the chamber .0015" greater than the GO gauge dimension and it's at 1.6315"

I know that the DIY barrel change on a Savage is to screw the barrel in to contact with a GO gauge, then tighten the nut. It is said that taking the slack out of the threads will lengthen the chamber by about .0015". I don't have the gauges to measure it, but it works in my rifle.
But then I am still in the dark ages of neck sizing.

[F. Guffey]

If you start with new ammo save 2 rounds, if the new ammo chambers and fires and does not allow the case to increase in length between the shoulder of the case and case head more than .002" you can always use the 2 saved cases when using a comparator on your sized cases.

steveNChunter, the smith will test fire the rifle, the test fired cases can be used to check the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face.

Difference? I measure the length of the case before firing from the shoulder to the case head, more times than not I form cases to fit before firing. If the length of the chamber is .0015" longer than a go-gage chamber we are back (or close) to sizing cases for a hunting rifle with reliable factory ammo chambering.

If the smith added .0015 to the length of the chamber there will be .0055 difference in length between the case from the shoulder to the case head and the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face.

Try to remember you are not shooting SAAMI ammo in a SAAMI chamber, you are shooting your ammo in your chamber.

F. Guffey

[steveNChunter]

Thanks guys for all the info, I'm trying to soak it in as I read. I am not entirely sure since I was communicating with the gunsmith through email, but I was assuming he meant it was spaced 1.5 thousandths greater than the "go" gauge measurement. I'll have him clarify that for me when I speak to him again.