AR optic hypothesis, LPV or ACOG +RDS - Page 2

mellow_c · May 26, 2018, 03:53 AM

Hah! It's all so true.

I like your idea of a 4x acog and side dot. It sounds rugged, reliable, accurate, and user friendly... Overall a solid set up.

I like the 2-7x idea despite not having illumination on a basic scope. Seems like a versatile primary optic, along with a side dot. Or you could get an illuminated 2-10x or even 2-12x I think!? If illumination is important to you, like with an acog or most other 1-?x scopes. Along with the side red dot.
But that gets heavy.

There are a lot of pretty capable scopes out there if you consider all of the 1-4x, 1-6x, & 1-8x options.

Id have a hard time really deciding what the best all purpose sight set up would be.

I hope you get something like you're describing worked out. Would be great to hear about how you like it!

stagpanther · May 26, 2018, 05:22 AM

I can appreciate marine's comments--a couple of scope purchases I made recently--including a night force and a vortex--left me less than impressed (not in the category mellow is looking at though). Good products, but features that did not enhance their use or overall less than stellar quality that did not match up to the price point in my opinion. Toss of the dice when buying before trying as is often the case for online ordering.

Bartholomew Roberts · May 26, 2018, 06:23 AM

marine, have you looked ar the TA33? It has a bigger eyebox than the 4x (almost as big as the TA11 3.5x I have) but is a compact ACOG (11oz with factory mount, 9oz with some aftermarket mounts). So you could have a 3x ACOG and an offset T1 for about 15oz total.

marine6680 · May 26, 2018, 05:19 PM

Yeah, I thought about that one... Until I actually looked through it.

It is like looking through a tunnel. The eye box was big and forgiving, but the low field of view and tunnel effect made it feel limiting.

It's light though.

mellow_c · May 28, 2018, 07:42 PM

I keep looking at the Vortex Razor HD Gen II 1-6x24... watching videos, looking at pictures, reading reviews.

I might have to look through one someday and decide for myself.

Maybe eventually (a few years from now) they will come out with a new and improved version. I could see waiting to buy something like that, or then buy the one that's already out after prices come down a bit more.

marine6680 · May 29, 2018, 12:59 AM

They have the Gen II E now... It is a little less of a fat pig, at around 20oz rather than around 26oz.

The glass clarity, eyebox and field of view are very good. The Eyebox and field of view are about the best of any 1-6 you can find, even at $2000+

And I would bet only the more picky of scope snobs would see anything more than a minor difference in glass clairity between the razor and a more expensive 1-6x.

MTT TL · May 29, 2018, 01:21 AM

On my patrol rifle I have an Eotech, flip aside magnifier and flip up BUIS. Heavy? Yes at 23 oz but I no longer have to trot through the dusty streets of the Middle East. During one tour in Iraq I humped a 203 at 48oz. After that everything is easy.

While it is heavy the weight is centered and does not slow me down much and I like having the 3X magnification.

gshayd · May 29, 2018, 01:59 AM

Back in the day when my eyes were good, we shot the M16 with a 20" barrel with the iron sights and were able to get good hits on the 600-yard targets. I have a rifle with an ACOG on it I will have to try it at 600 yards.

mellow_c · May 30, 2018, 05:24 PM

I see that Jerry Miculek uses a combo set up on his 3-gun rifle.

Vortex razor 1-6x for his main optic and a small red dot mounted off to the right side...

If he feels the need to have that small side dot despite the vortex having such a great field of view and eye box along with the 1x, i think that's really saying something.

stagpanther · May 30, 2018, 05:47 PM

JM can hit a pin head at 1000 yds with a spitball--ten times in one second.

marine6680 · June 7, 2018, 12:53 AM

Well... I will be putting this to the test soon.

A friend built his first AR (well assembled a lower, and bought a BCM upper for it) And he really liked the Accupower 1-4x... So I offered to sell it to him for a decent price. I told him a red dot was the better general purpose optic for what he wants to do, but he liked having some magnification. I think he is planning on gettong an offset red dot in the future.

I have an ACOG TA51-D (55gr from a 16in barrel reticle) and an RMR with offset mount on the way.

Weight of all of it will be around 18-19oz, less than a typical LPV and mount weigh.

mellow_c · June 8, 2018, 07:19 PM

Awesome! Please let us know what you think. If you could do a bit of side by side testing with that set up and a rifle with a basic red dot only and then give us your opinion on how easy or difficult the offset red dot is compared to the regularly mounted one, that would be a good start. I hope the set up works well for you and that you report back with good news!

So far I'm still leaning towards the vortex, but I'm also not in a hurry to buy one considering their cost.

marine6680 · June 8, 2018, 07:35 PM

Will do.

Apparently I fat fingered the keys... I am getting a TA31, their standard 4x model. They don't make a TA51.

marine6680 · June 11, 2018, 11:58 PM

Got everything in...

Initial thoughts:

I think it works very well.

The switch to the offset sight is fast and simple. Very natural motion, you don't need to move your cheek from the stock, and it rolls right into proper head position to see through the offset.

Reloads require you to flip the rifle over, but most do that anyway, you just have a little more rotation.

I am going to try the new rearward cantilever mount for the ACOG, this mount raises the optic a bit and moves it over top of a rear mounted BUIS. The height the optic is raised, is half the diameter of the ocular lens.

This isn't enough height to be an issue, and you can still roll into a proper eye position for the offset. I tested this by getting a cheek weld while looking at the top of the ocular lens, or rather the frame that surrounds the lens.

Total weight is 17.6oz, vs the 25oz of my accupower and Midwest Ind Mount.

If I like the ADM mount, the weight goes down to 16.4oz

And I got the subtension info for the ACOG TA31-D model... Strelok does not have this reticle programed in yet. I sent him the data though.

ZERO at 100 meters using tip of chevron,

200 M (inside tip of chevron) 1.5 moa

300 M (tip of BDC) 4.4

400 M 8.4

500 M 13.6

600 M 20.5

700 M 29.3

800 M 39.6

The width of each stadia going down the BDC represents approx 19” at the corresponding 100 METER increment.

marine6680 · June 12, 2018, 01:25 PM

Found this video on youtube about the ACOG + Offset.

Clicky Linky

May 26, 2018, 05:22 AM	#27
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,773	I can appreciate marine's comments--a couple of scope purchases I made recently--including a night force and a vortex--left me less than impressed (not in the category mellow is looking at though). Good products, but features that did not enhance their use or overall less than stellar quality that did not match up to the price point in my opinion. Toss of the dice when buying before trying as is often the case for online ordering. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

May 29, 2018, 01:21 AM	#32
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	On my patrol rifle I have an Eotech, flip aside magnifier and flip up BUIS. Heavy? Yes at 23 oz but I no longer have to trot through the dusty streets of the Middle East. During one tour in Iraq I humped a 203 at 48oz. After that everything is easy. While it is heavy the weight is centered and does not slow me down much and I like having the 3X magnification. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

May 30, 2018, 05:47 PM	#35
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,773	JM can hit a pin head at 1000 yds with a spitball--ten times in one second. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

June 11, 2018, 11:58 PM	#39
marine6680 Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2012 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 4,594	Got everything in... Initial thoughts: I think it works very well. The switch to the offset sight is fast and simple. Very natural motion, you don't need to move your cheek from the stock, and it rolls right into proper head position to see through the offset. Reloads require you to flip the rifle over, but most do that anyway, you just have a little more rotation. I am going to try the new rearward cantilever mount for the ACOG, this mount raises the optic a bit and moves it over top of a rear mounted BUIS. The height the optic is raised, is half the diameter of the ocular lens. This isn't enough height to be an issue, and you can still roll into a proper eye position for the offset. I tested this by getting a cheek weld while looking at the top of the ocular lens, or rather the frame that surrounds the lens. Total weight is 17.6oz, vs the 25oz of my accupower and Midwest Ind Mount. If I like the ADM mount, the weight goes down to 16.4oz And I got the subtension info for the ACOG TA31-D model... Strelok does not have this reticle programed in yet. I sent him the data though. ZERO at 100 meters using tip of chevron, 200 M (inside tip of chevron) 1.5 moa 300 M (tip of BDC) 4.4 400 M 8.4 500 M 13.6 600 M 20.5 700 M 29.3 800 M 39.6 The width of each stadia going down the BDC represents approx 19” at the corresponding 100 METER increment. Last edited by marine6680; June 12, 2018 at 01:48 PM.

May 26, 2018, 03:53 AM	#26
mellow_c Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,862	Hah! It's all so true. I like your idea of a 4x acog and side dot. It sounds rugged, reliable, accurate, and user friendly... Overall a solid set up. I like the 2-7x idea despite not having illumination on a basic scope. Seems like a versatile primary optic, along with a side dot. Or you could get an illuminated 2-10x or even 2-12x I think!? If illumination is important to you, like with an acog or most other 1-?x scopes. Along with the side red dot. But that gets heavy. There are a lot of pretty capable scopes out there if you consider all of the 1-4x, 1-6x, & 1-8x options. Id have a hard time really deciding what the best all purpose sight set up would be. I hope you get something like you're describing worked out. Would be great to hear about how you like it!

May 26, 2018, 06:23 AM	#28
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	marine, have you looked ar the TA33? It has a bigger eyebox than the 4x (almost as big as the TA11 3.5x I have) but is a compact ACOG (11oz with factory mount, 9oz with some aftermarket mounts). So you could have a 3x ACOG and an offset T1 for about 15oz total.

May 26, 2018, 05:19 PM	#29
marine6680 Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2012 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 4,594	Yeah, I thought about that one... Until I actually looked through it. It is like looking through a tunnel. The eye box was big and forgiving, but the low field of view and tunnel effect made it feel limiting. It's light though.

May 28, 2018, 07:42 PM	#30
mellow_c Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,862	I keep looking at the Vortex Razor HD Gen II 1-6x24... watching videos, looking at pictures, reading reviews. I might have to look through one someday and decide for myself. Maybe eventually (a few years from now) they will come out with a new and improved version. I could see waiting to buy something like that, or then buy the one that's already out after prices come down a bit more.

May 29, 2018, 12:59 AM	#31
marine6680 Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2012 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 4,594	They have the Gen II E now... It is a little less of a fat pig, at around 20oz rather than around 26oz. The glass clarity, eyebox and field of view are very good. The Eyebox and field of view are about the best of any 1-6 you can find, even at $2000+ And I would bet only the more picky of scope snobs would see anything more than a minor difference in glass clairity between the razor and a more expensive 1-6x.

May 29, 2018, 01:59 AM	#33
gshayd Senior Member Join Date: May 14, 2017 Posts: 123	Back in the day when my eyes were good, we shot the M16 with a 20" barrel with the iron sights and were able to get good hits on the 600-yard targets. I have a rifle with an ACOG on it I will have to try it at 600 yards.

May 30, 2018, 05:24 PM	#34
mellow_c Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,862	I see that Jerry Miculek uses a combo set up on his 3-gun rifle. Vortex razor 1-6x for his main optic and a small red dot mounted off to the right side... If he feels the need to have that small side dot despite the vortex having such a great field of view and eye box along with the 1x, i think that's really saying something.

June 7, 2018, 12:53 AM	#36
marine6680 Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2012 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 4,594	Well... I will be putting this to the test soon. A friend built his first AR (well assembled a lower, and bought a BCM upper for it) And he really liked the Accupower 1-4x... So I offered to sell it to him for a decent price. I told him a red dot was the better general purpose optic for what he wants to do, but he liked having some magnification. I think he is planning on gettong an offset red dot in the future. I have an ACOG TA51-D (55gr from a 16in barrel reticle) and an RMR with offset mount on the way. Weight of all of it will be around 18-19oz, less than a typical LPV and mount weigh.

June 8, 2018, 07:19 PM	#37
mellow_c Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,862	Awesome! Please let us know what you think. If you could do a bit of side by side testing with that set up and a rifle with a basic red dot only and then give us your opinion on how easy or difficult the offset red dot is compared to the regularly mounted one, that would be a good start. I hope the set up works well for you and that you report back with good news! So far I'm still leaning towards the vortex, but I'm also not in a hurry to buy one considering their cost.

June 8, 2018, 07:35 PM	#38
marine6680 Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2012 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 4,594	Will do. Apparently I fat fingered the keys... I am getting a TA31, their standard 4x model. They don't make a TA51.

June 12, 2018, 01:25 PM	#40
marine6680 Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2012 Location: Parker, CO Posts: 4,594	Found this video on youtube about the ACOG + Offset. Clicky Linky