224 Valk

[stagpanther]

I load the long VLDs just to see where they hit the lands. I single feed them, don't use the mags. Slide them through the port on top of the follower.

That's cheating!! But I know the vld,except for the AR hybrids, can be temperamental in an auto-fed AR.

[stagpanther]

I just started loading some secondary loads for testing of the 95 gr MK's. I ran into the same problem of consistent seating for uniform COL. What the heck? Finally the lightbulb went on and I measured the bullets themselves--they were all over the map and varying by as much as .007"

[stagpanther]

Just went out and tried a "secondary" run of the loads above,and once again they came out pretty good, at least at 100 yds. This time I brought the labradar out to get some velocity figures--pieces of the data are missing, but that was probably because the winds were still blowing hard enough it was pushing the box around--or maybe I just didn't have it aimed well at the target. Whatever--the pictures speak for themselves.




I think it's important to point out this load has shot consistently well out of both the PSA and H's barrel (though the PSA's slower twist resulted in some key-holing). Notice the SD figures are not especially good--I think that is due to the inconsistent COL's--this is a function I believe of sierra's inconsistent bullet length--the largest I've seen on a 224 bullet. I also have to fess up to shooting a 5 shot group--and the first shot is that one way out to the left. I'm shooting all my shots strictly through the magazine--but for some reason the first shot (or maybe all the follow-up shots) are landing significantly apart from the main group. The winds were again something of a factor--though not as bad as recent days but still up in the 15 to 20 MPH range and gusty cross. Lastly--and I really honestly mean this--I was not controlling my triggerpull--I was easily able to call my shots through the 24x of the Nikon scope, so I am absolutely certain these groups can be improved upon once I get better consistency with cartridges and my technique (I also was not timing the shots for cool down as I should have). It's also pretty interesting to see, if you look at the velocity numbers, that I was able to exceed sierra's own velocity numbers for their 90 MK at maximum charge weight.

My conclusion: H's barrel is a winner, though it is dependent on the right bullet/COL combination. It's a shame existing factory ammo doesn't meet that potential. But IMO that potential is undeniably there--and sooner or later the manufacturer's will fill the void with both complete ammo and the necessary components.

[ed308]

Nice write up and group. Keeping my fingers crossed Hornady will introduce factory ammo to fill the void with H's barrels for factory ammo. Not sure I'd buy any but nice to have available if needed.

[stagpanther]

Look at the muzzle energy--it's right there with that of a grendel. I remember both the 6.8 and grendel went through "teething pains" when they were first introduced--I think the same will happen with this cartridge. I like the idea of an 88gr bullet--but my feeling is the outstanding characteristic that will make or break the valk is the development of cartridges that can get the big bullets out the tube fast. I'm very disappointed with the inconsistency of the MK's length in the 95 MK's. I think a few new entries by players like berger's vld and possibly even a larger eld x in 90 to 100 gr's will help the valk take off.

[constructor]

What was your OAL ...average?

[stagpanther]

What was your OAL ...average?

LOL well asked--I started out with the first bullet set to 2.335--but the whole set ended up varying between 2.328 to just under 2.34 (5 shots). Next time I'll be far more careful about measuring and weighing each bullet.

PS--my gut feeling is the 25.7 grs of the 2000MR was not at the upper end of the charge weight potential.

[stagpanther]

I started measuring the remaining bullets in the box and simply gave up--it's a hopeless cause IMO because virtually none of them match in length. I think this is mostly due to the relatively soft copper hollow pointed metal jacket which is so narrow that there is no way the nose can stay consistent--I'm guessing just shifting inside the box is enough to knock down the bullet nose/meplat. Obviously an effective high BC shape--but the materials aren't up to maintaining consistency IMO. Somebody is going to need to use a higher strength alloy combo of some sort would be my guess.

Feel free to forward this post to Bryan Litz

[stagpanther]

I'm going to do one last test with the 95 MK's today and then move on to the 88 eldx's. My "new" seating method is to seat the longest bullet first, so that theoretically all the rest of the cartridges will be equal to or less in the resulting COLs. Unless someone has a better idea.

[stagpanther]

Mixed results--I managed to get all five shots within a reasonable distance of one-another, but I'm still pulling shots. I'm going to leave this one alone for now--as promising as it is--until I can figure out a way to uniform the cartridges better (and improve my shooting technique); it's burning me out.

[constructor]

I decided last week I was going to start testing the elds more and back off the the Sierra except testing the factory 90gr SMK for customers.

[stagpanther]

I decided last week I was going to start testing the elds more and back off the the Sierra except testing the factory 90gr SMK for customers.

You got me a bit freaked about the SAAMI COL thing--I'm thinking I should retract all load stuff I've posted.

[constructor]

You would hope anyone that reloads knows enough to know to check each bullet type to make sure they don't jam the lands and starts 2gr down but that isn't the case. No matter what you do there will be thousands of people jamming the lands using max loads and blowing primers.

[stagpanther]

Yeah--but I didn't point out the inherent danger of the mixing the two cartridge/chamber configurations depending on the freebore, (though I really wasn't aware of it til you brought it up) I'm really thinking I better take the stuff down to be on the safe side--don't you think?

[FrankenMauser]

I don't think it's necessary, but...
Just have a moderator add the reloading disclaimer to your first post.

You won't be able to edit anything older than 5 days (unless the forum setting have been changed).


Or, a modified version, such as:
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge, and involved chambers with differing throat dimensions. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

[stagpanther]

Thanks Franken. I'll try that

[constructor]

Well here's one. Which chamber do you think the powder and bullet companies used to run pressure tests and develop published load data?

[stagpanther]

Well here's one. Which chamber do you think the powder and bullet companies used to run pressure tests and develop published load data?

I know--right? I'm thinking of pulling the handgaurd off and attaching a strain gauge and then see if I can get a pressure calibration reference from either federal or hornady--though hornady hasn't widely distributed their ammo yet (as far as I can tell). I know it's only ballpark but if I can get within 3 to 4,000 psi in deviation I'll be happy with that. I haven't seen any signs at all of approaching high pressure in any of my tests so far (that starline brass does appear to be rather "flimsy" but I haven't seen any notable expansion/flow)--I'm actually wondering if they are a bit on the low side considering I'm seating longer for a CB cut-out mag.

[ed308]

Appears PTG is trying to cover for their screw up in case you missed it. See their post today....

https://68forums.com/forums/showthre...55#post1344255

[stagpanther]

Finished my first batch of 88 eldx's--they are much more consistent in length than the MK's and easier to seat--but still are pretty high SD pointy things. I'm trying H380 this time, and seating to 2.323.

Windy thunderstorms going through right now--might not get to fire for a day or two. Notice the slight compression ring on the bullet nose below the tip. As soon as they come into stock I will be buying hornady's dies and stems.

[stagpanther]

As usual curiosity got the better of me--and despite gusty pre-storm conditions I decided to go out and test the eldx's. For once it held off until I finished shooting to start raining, but I had to rush the shots anyway. This was my first go with the 88eldx's and H380 powder. Results were inconclusive yet again--group accuracy was highly dependent on near-perfect control of the gun and trigger-pull--the slightest aberration in either usually flew a shot pretty wide. The warmer loads tended to give better results with all the 4 shots of each charge weight--but there was also one low-end weight charge that made a 3 shot group very close but I still managed to goof and ruin the group with a wide flier. The gun is shooting ahead of my abilities at the moment--and I'm not sure that the cartridge recipes are really optimal--the felt recoil was pretty light and even the top charge which was slightly compressed didn't show any signs of even cratering the pin strike on the primer.





I still think the potential of this cartridge hasn't been fully tapped yet--and I'm not sure I would want to get a barrel with the shorter freebore if that meant I couldn't run my loads past 2.9/2.3 +/- which I can do with the CB mag. To me it's no big deal to make the caveat that it's a reloader's proposition to get the maximum performance out of--many of H's other barrels are the same proposition when you think about it. I have my doubts you're going to get the 1,000+ yd performance that's been touted with a shorter COL magazine configuration--but I certainly hope I'm proven wrong!

[ed308]

Are those your favorite bullets so far?

[stagpanther]

Are those your favorite bullets so far?

The only meaningful conclusion I can make so far is that they appear to be better designed than the bigger MK's in terms of consistency from one bullet to the next in manufacturing based on the boxes I've purchased.

All I've done so far is "nibble at the edges" at getting familiar with what potential there is with the cartridge using the barrel and magazine that I have. My personal interest in this cartridge is to see what it can do in the bigger bullets since there are already other 224 chambering that can push "conventional" 224 bullets fast. I have great expectations for the 90 gr vld when Berger ever gets around to making a run of them. I suspect there will be "teething issues" finding a good load that cycles into the AR chamber without damage to the bullet--unless they go with a AR hybrid design that moves the ogive base further forward. I've used those in my creedmoor-based builds with very good results.

My purely speculative opinion is that the slightly longer COL made possible with the CB magazine and longer freebore opens up doors to more experimentation with higher SD bullets--as well as different powder combinations. Problem is--this is essentially wild-catting without known standards--as H points out it seems that nobody has a firm idea on what the "test specs" are depending upon what "flavor" their chamber cut is. I think that is maybe why he is concentrating on optimizing around published SAAMI spec standards.

You shoot enough of these cartridges and you get a sorta "zen feel" of what is possible based on things like the case design/capacity, powder performance, bullet velocities etc. I'm still having problems with fundamental things like a good fit of a bullet in the seating stem and ,cough cough, my personal shooting technique is a bit behind the gun, so I can't make a meaningful conclusion based on just a few test ladders--other than that there have been "flashes of brilliance" that I personally feel indicates that there is great performance potential "in there." A better shooter and loader than me will sooner or later uncover that is what I think--that much I'm certain of.

[ed308]

Hopefully the new dies from Hornady will help too.

[stagpanther]

Just shot a few secondary loads in H380--they are pretty good (it was raining lightly though no wind) and 3 of 6 charge weights produced groupings in the .5 range--this was the best of the bunch. Pretty accurate powder but the velocities produced are a tad anemic compared to other powders.