Scopes and lasers take the fun out of target shooting?

veamon · December 22, 2013, 09:32 PM

Does adding a scope or laser to your gun take the fun out of target shooting for you? I don't hunt, but have a few rifles and handguns, and thinking about adding a scope, but after you zero it in and can have a small grouping at x amount of yards, what do you do next? It would seem that after you've got it ready to go, the skill is all gone, since you're just changing the dials based on distance, and then putting the crosshairs on the target.

Damon555 · December 22, 2013, 09:44 PM

Your goal should be to put 5 shots into the same hole at 100 yards......then your work is done. Despite what you read on the internet most folks go their entire lives without accomplishing that feat.....that's the fun of it for me. Of course hand loading comes into play at some point or another.

geetarman · December 22, 2013, 09:54 PM

^^^^^^^ What he said.

MarkCO · December 22, 2013, 09:56 PM

Chasing tiny groups is not for everyone. If the appeal is lost on you , then don't do it. The ability to shoot sub-MOA is not prevalent, regardless of the internet claims. Most people are going to shoot 3 to 5 MOA just starting out. The repeatability of the stable position (quality shooters talk about "building" the shooting position), cheek weld, breath control, trigger control, reading the wind, knowing the atmospheric corrections and DOPE (Data of Prior Engagements) are all individual skills that must be developed and perfected. Hitting on first round, a 10" gong at 1000 yards...if you can just dial and do that, go enter every match you can and you will be famous and rich in no time.

There is some science, some mental and some art all mixed together. About the only shooting skill that is not required at the top of the ranks in precision rifle shooting is speed. Enter an Enduro or sniper style match and now you have to have speed too.

B.L.E. · December 22, 2013, 10:08 PM

A scope does not shoot the rifle for you. You can still jerk the trigger, flinch, fail to correctly read the wind, etc.
My offhand scores with a scoped rifle aren't much better than what I can do with a good aperture rear and blade front sight, in fact, often I do better with the metallic sights.

Quote:

Hitting on first round, a 10" gong at 1000 yards...if you can just dial and do that, go enter every match you can and you will be famous and rich in no time.

Probably just famous.

AllenJ · December 22, 2013, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Does adding a scope or laser to your gun take the fun out of target shooting for you?

With scopes no, it enhances it. With open sights the distance I can accurately shoot is limited to 150 yards or so. With a scope I'm able to shoot targets at 550 yards, my ranges max distance.

I've never used a laser so can't comment on that.

Jay24bal · December 22, 2013, 10:52 PM

Quote:

what do you do next?

Try and shoot a smaller group! As others have pointed out, some people (myself 100% included) live to shoot the smallest group possible. The day that I shoot a 5 shot, 1 hole group at 100 yards will be the highlight of my hunting and shooting career.

I am not there yet, and that is what keeps me going. I have spent hundred of hours (maybe even into the thousands) of hours shooting and handloading to achieve this goal. And while I have shot several hundred very impressive groups, until there is one, single hole, I know that I can do better. I am a very competitive person after being an athlete all the way through college, and in my mind this is the ultimate competition as there are so many variables to be taken into account every time you pull the press ram or touch the trigger.

Some people are happy shooting Minute of Deer and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. For example I am happy shooting a string of 17 or 18 out of 25 clays while some people consider anything less than 24 a failure. I am the same way with a scoped rifle in that if it is not less than 1/4 MOA I am not truly happy with my performance. While 1/2 MOA groups are nothing to scoff at, I know I can do better and I go to whatever lengths I can in order to do better.

Ricklin · December 22, 2013, 11:13 PM

If one adds a lead sled, and a remote release for the trigger then I could understand the boredom.

I can understand the lead sled to help determine the mechanical accuracy, esp. with high powered rifles.

My brother likes to brag about tight groups, but they are obtained with a lead sled. When it comes to real shooting, I hand him his ass. I am not that good, I don't own a lead sled either.

Jay24bal · December 22, 2013, 11:33 PM

I agree 100% with the above feelings about using a Lead Sled or any other sled/clamping device. Whenever I shoot for groups, I never use a sled. I want to know that if that day ever comes that I have one hole in the paper after 5 shots that I did it without clamping the gun in place and thus removing one of the variables that needs to be perfect.

I do own a lead sled and I use it for one purpose: to evaluate the performance of loads when working up a new handload. In this instance I want to purposefully eliminate as many variable as possible in order to gauge the performance of that particular load. I also never shoot for load development when there is wind that is noticeable and I always shoot my tests at the same distance so that I can compare the new results to loads I tested in the past.

B.L.E. · December 23, 2013, 07:09 AM

Even in unlimited bench rest using a rail gun, you still have to be able to read the conditions and know when not to shoot.
Famous last words: I thought bench rest was going to be easy.
And in a way, it is easy to shoot small groups with that equipment, but, there will still be people who can do it better than you.

jmr40 · December 23, 2013, 07:38 AM

All a scope does is improve your ability to see the target. It doesn't necessarily help you shoot better. Most folks shoot about the same with quality irons as with a scope as long as they can see the target. Once you get a little distance between you and the target, or if lighting gets poor a scope will help you see the target.

If playing games or just plinking at the firing range and if someone wants to make it more challenging then shoot irons.

There is a lot more than just putting the cross hairs on the target. Especially once you start increasing the ranges you shoot.

Panfisher · December 23, 2013, 08:34 AM

Switch to reactive targets, when I shoot for plain old fun I like to find things that do something when I shoot them, swing, flip over, blow up something and move them around to unknown distances. Old vegetables like tomatoes or turnips make great targets set at unknown distances, they are small and you will know if you hit them. A homemade steel gong at a couple hundred yards in the wind can be quite a humbling experience. My only experience with lasers was on a friends AR, honestly I didn't care much for it. Since I live out in the country I can set up various targets and shoot them with no problems, might not be that way on a public range.

bedlamite · December 23, 2013, 08:41 AM

If you get bored with hitting the target all the time, then your target is too close.

g.willikers · December 23, 2013, 09:51 AM

Slow fire at a static target is just one version of shooting.
If that becomes boring, there's plenty of other forms of shooting that should get your juices flowing.

bhammell · December 23, 2013, 11:57 AM

The fun isn't lost. Try to get as tight of groupings as you can. Or shoot a target beyond your zero distance. Plenty of stuff to keep you entertained.

bhammell
http://bestar15scopes.com

reynolds357 · December 23, 2013, 12:00 PM

I like technology. If you take the "traditional" thing to its fullest extent, grab a spear and start throwing it.

kutz · December 23, 2013, 12:24 PM

When are using 65 year old eyes, scopes, lasers & red dots put the fun BACK in shooting!

4runnerman · December 23, 2013, 12:59 PM

The fun becomes Not hitting the target only,But from how far away can you hit it. 600,800,1000 plus.

emcon5 · December 23, 2013, 02:29 PM

Compete.

TGSTGS · December 23, 2013, 06:09 PM

I became involved in mid-range (600yds) a while back and its anything but boring often frustrating but the peep sight really added to the fun. I have not become better than high 80% on an average but really without many many more rounds down range to think I'd be shooting high 90's is kidding myself.
The challenges with so many variables are stacked against the shooter from the git go but it really gives one a sense of accomplishment to see your scores keep getting better (most of the time). I invested significantly so there is only one excuse more and more rounds needed. Its a blast really. If you have old eyes like mine go F class and add a scope but until then my old eyes seem to be doing fine. I like the peep.

tobnpr · December 23, 2013, 06:26 PM

Quote:

The fun becomes Not hitting the target only,But from how far away can you hit it. 600,800,1000 plus.

^^This, for us (sons and I...)

100-200 yards became very unchallenging for us once the basics were down pat. The drive sucks, but we travel nearly two hours each way now to shoot at 600-1K yards.
Get into true long-range shooting where external influences (mostly wind) make it a whole 'nother ballgame. Downside is that some days when it's howling, you gotta stay home

pathdoc · December 23, 2013, 06:38 PM

Go shooting on windier and windier days (especially when it's shifting; a steady wind can sometimes be less challenging than almost none at all). Seek longer ranges. Shoot with progressively less support (except when doing load workups; then use all the support you can get).

There will, however, be days when life sucks, and those are the days you want to be able to just blow the hell out of the centre of your target with minimal effort and have a nice little group to feel good about. In that case, bring on the scopes and the lasers. And you may yet change your mind about hunting. I did.

TGSTGS · December 23, 2013, 07:03 PM

We've shot some matches at AEDC in Tullahoma Tn when the weather was
"you gotta be crazy" cold, wind blowing, raining and it was a lot of miserable fun no one did well actually you looked forward to your turn pulling targets

The drive to the Oak Ridge Sportsman Club became to long (2 hours) and TOO expensive so I had to get out of it for a while until AEDC started 600's again for a while it was 1000's only and I hadn't tooled up for that one.

If you really like the workout the Across the Course matches really adds to the challenge physically and doesn't demand quite the expense

B.L.E. · December 23, 2013, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emcon5

Compete.

+1^^

I would have been bored with shooting a long time ago if it weren't for competition.
Competition also has a way of showing you how good you are not.

TGSTGS · December 23, 2013, 09:57 PM

BLE you got that right "how good Im not" !

I really enjoy the match shooting because its a chance to see some incredible marksmanship and sets goals maybe not something one may every achieve but just witnessing these guys do the incredible makes the fun ten fold.

did you see the 17yr old young lady Jr. class win the Camp Perry 1000???? She is a 3 year shooter and blew the field away (100 4x) with her .308 Seniors and F'ers she took it all!!! An amazing competitior KUDOS to her.

December 22, 2013, 09:32 PM	#1
veamon Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2013 Posts: 186	Scopes and lasers take the fun out of target shooting? Does adding a scope or laser to your gun take the fun out of target shooting for you? I don't hunt, but have a few rifles and handguns, and thinking about adding a scope, but after you zero it in and can have a small grouping at x amount of yards, what do you do next? It would seem that after you've got it ready to go, the skill is all gone, since you're just changing the dials based on distance, and then putting the crosshairs on the target.

December 22, 2013, 09:54 PM	#3
geetarman Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,157	^^^^^^^ What he said. __________________ Geetarman Carpe Cerveza

December 22, 2013, 09:56 PM	#4
MarkCO Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 1998 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 4,307	Chasing tiny groups is not for everyone. If the appeal is lost on you , then don't do it. The ability to shoot sub-MOA is not prevalent, regardless of the internet claims. Most people are going to shoot 3 to 5 MOA just starting out. The repeatability of the stable position (quality shooters talk about "building" the shooting position), cheek weld, breath control, trigger control, reading the wind, knowing the atmospheric corrections and DOPE (Data of Prior Engagements) are all individual skills that must be developed and perfected. Hitting on first round, a 10" gong at 1000 yards...if you can just dial and do that, go enter every match you can and you will be famous and rich in no time. There is some science, some mental and some art all mixed together. About the only shooting skill that is not required at the top of the ranks in precision rifle shooting is speed. Enter an Enduro or sniper style match and now you have to have speed too. __________________ Good Shooting, MarkCO www.CarbonArms.us

December 22, 2013, 11:13 PM	#8
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,011	Additional Eq. If one adds a lead sled, and a remote release for the trigger then I could understand the boredom. I can understand the lead sled to help determine the mechanical accuracy, esp. with high powered rifles. My brother likes to brag about tight groups, but they are obtained with a lead sled. When it comes to real shooting, I hand him his ass. I am not that good, I don't own a lead sled either. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

December 22, 2013, 11:33 PM	#9
Jay24bal Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2011 Location: Cleveland, OH Posts: 735	I agree 100% with the above feelings about using a Lead Sled or any other sled/clamping device. Whenever I shoot for groups, I never use a sled. I want to know that if that day ever comes that I have one hole in the paper after 5 shots that I did it without clamping the gun in place and thus removing one of the variables that needs to be perfect. I do own a lead sled and I use it for one purpose: to evaluate the performance of loads when working up a new handload. In this instance I want to purposefully eliminate as many variable as possible in order to gauge the performance of that particular load. I also never shoot for load development when there is wind that is noticeable and I always shoot my tests at the same distance so that I can compare the new results to loads I tested in the past. __________________ I like guns. Once Fired Brass, Top quality, Fast shipping, Best prices. http://300AacBrass.com/ -10% Coupon use code " Jay24bal "

December 22, 2013, 09:44 PM	#2
Damon555 Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2012 Posts: 384	Your goal should be to put 5 shots into the same hole at 100 yards......then your work is done. Despite what you read on the internet most folks go their entire lives without accomplishing that feat.....that's the fun of it for me. Of course hand loading comes into play at some point or another.

December 23, 2013, 07:09 AM	#10
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	Even in unlimited bench rest using a rail gun, you still have to be able to read the conditions and know when not to shoot. Famous last words: I thought bench rest was going to be easy. And in a way, it is easy to shoot small groups with that equipment, but, there will still be people who can do it better than you. __________________ Hanlon's Razor "Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization."

December 23, 2013, 07:38 AM	#11
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,805	All a scope does is improve your ability to see the target. It doesn't necessarily help you shoot better. Most folks shoot about the same with quality irons as with a scope as long as they can see the target. Once you get a little distance between you and the target, or if lighting gets poor a scope will help you see the target. If playing games or just plinking at the firing range and if someone wants to make it more challenging then shoot irons. There is a lot more than just putting the cross hairs on the target. Especially once you start increasing the ranges you shoot.

December 23, 2013, 08:34 AM	#12
Panfisher Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,337	Switch to reactive targets, when I shoot for plain old fun I like to find things that do something when I shoot them, swing, flip over, blow up something and move them around to unknown distances. Old vegetables like tomatoes or turnips make great targets set at unknown distances, they are small and you will know if you hit them. A homemade steel gong at a couple hundred yards in the wind can be quite a humbling experience. My only experience with lasers was on a friends AR, honestly I didn't care much for it. Since I live out in the country I can set up various targets and shoot them with no problems, might not be that way on a public range.

December 23, 2013, 08:41 AM	#13
bedlamite Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2000 Location: WI Posts: 1,395	If you get bored with hitting the target all the time, then your target is too close. __________________ A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.

December 23, 2013, 09:51 AM	#14
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Slow fire at a static target is just one version of shooting. If that becomes boring, there's plenty of other forms of shooting that should get your juices flowing. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

December 23, 2013, 11:57 AM	#15
bhammell Junior Member Join Date: November 16, 2013 Posts: 4	The fun isn't lost. Try to get as tight of groupings as you can. Or shoot a target beyond your zero distance. Plenty of stuff to keep you entertained. bhammell http://bestar15scopes.com

December 23, 2013, 12:00 PM	#16
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	I like technology. If you take the "traditional" thing to its fullest extent, grab a spear and start throwing it.

December 23, 2013, 12:24 PM	#17
kutz Senior Member Join Date: September 24, 2012 Location: Arizona Posts: 393	When are using 65 year old eyes, scopes, lasers & red dots put the fun BACK in shooting!

December 23, 2013, 12:59 PM	#18
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	The fun becomes Not hitting the target only,But from how far away can you hit it. 600,800,1000 plus. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

December 23, 2013, 02:29 PM	#19
emcon5 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 1999 Location: High Desert NV Posts: 2,850	Compete.

December 23, 2013, 06:09 PM	#20
TGSTGS Member Join Date: November 17, 2012 Posts: 34	I became involved in mid-range (600yds) a while back and its anything but boring often frustrating but the peep sight really added to the fun. I have not become better than high 80% on an average but really without many many more rounds down range to think I'd be shooting high 90's is kidding myself. The challenges with so many variables are stacked against the shooter from the git go but it really gives one a sense of accomplishment to see your scores keep getting better (most of the time). I invested significantly so there is only one excuse more and more rounds needed. Its a blast really. If you have old eyes like mine go F class and add a scope but until then my old eyes seem to be doing fine. I like the peep.

December 23, 2013, 06:38 PM	#22
pathdoc Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2013 Posts: 669	Go shooting on windier and windier days (especially when it's shifting; a steady wind can sometimes be less challenging than almost none at all). Seek longer ranges. Shoot with progressively less support (except when doing load workups; then use all the support you can get). There will, however, be days when life sucks, and those are the days you want to be able to just blow the hell out of the centre of your target with minimal effort and have a nice little group to feel good about. In that case, bring on the scopes and the lasers. And you may yet change your mind about hunting. I did.

December 23, 2013, 07:03 PM	#23
TGSTGS Member Join Date: November 17, 2012 Posts: 34	We've shot some matches at AEDC in Tullahoma Tn when the weather was "you gotta be crazy" cold, wind blowing, raining and it was a lot of miserable fun no one did well actually you looked forward to your turn pulling targets The drive to the Oak Ridge Sportsman Club became to long (2 hours) and TOO expensive so I had to get out of it for a while until AEDC started 600's again for a while it was 1000's only and I hadn't tooled up for that one. If you really like the workout the Across the Course matches really adds to the challenge physically and doesn't demand quite the expense

December 23, 2013, 09:57 PM	#25
TGSTGS Member Join Date: November 17, 2012 Posts: 34	BLE you got that right "how good Im not" ! I really enjoy the match shooting because its a chance to see some incredible marksmanship and sets goals maybe not something one may every achieve but just witnessing these guys do the incredible makes the fun ten fold. did you see the 17yr old young lady Jr. class win the Camp Perry 1000???? She is a 3 year shooter and blew the field away (100 4x) with her .308 Seniors and F'ers she took it all!!! An amazing competitior KUDOS to her.